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Segev
2013-07-26, 02:40 PM
I know this is hardly an original idea, but having heard about it, I couldn't help but play with the concept to see what I could come up with. For those who are unfamiliar, Launch Bolt is a 3.5e Sor/Wiz 0 spell that allows you to fire a bolt "in your possession" as if you fired it from a light crossbow. It spells out the range increment of 80 ft., names the target of the spell as a crossbow bolt "in your possession," is touch range, and lists a material component as "the crossbow bolt (1 sp)."

First, a little discussion on what this all means.

Argument: Eschew Materials allows you to create bolts from thin air, because it provides the material component.

Unfortunately, that's inaccurate: Eschew Materials obviates the need for a material component that costs less than 1 gp (which this one does), but it doesn't provide a target for a spell where one doesn't exist. You still need a bolt to touch as the target.

Argument: The spell actually doesn't work at all as written. It names the bolt that's being fired as the material component, and material components are consumed, so there's no bolt left to fire!

This one's closer; the bolt is, in fact, consumed, since it's a material component of the spell. However, the spell is of Instant duration, so the bolt very well can be fired and do the damage it says it does; it's just consumed in the process. This leads to the odd situation that, after firing the bolt, there's no bolt left. So the wounds or damage done by it are devoid of evidence of what caused them. Probably a murder mystery or something one could pull off with this, if one were so inclined.

This does raise an interesting point, though: Eschew Materials, in obviating the need for the material component, means that the bolt being targeted is not used as the material component. Therefore, it is not consumed. So using Launch Bolt with Eschew Materials causes the bolt to be left behind after it's fired, while it's just plain gone if the feat is not applied.

Now, this leads me to the first trick - and possibly one that's somewhat original, as I've not seen it elsewhere:

"Bolts from Nowhere"

This is, in some ways, similar to the attempted trick above that said that Eschew Materials would manufacture bolts from nothing. However, it's actually easier to do, ironically.

Spell Component Pouches are mundane items that just about every spellcaster buys. They explicitly have in them any material component the spellcaster needs for his spells, so long as they're less than 1 gp in value. They never need refreshing or replacement unless they're lost, stolen, or destroyed. This is actually a rules abstraction; they're not magic items, and don't magically have infinite supply. They just are treated as if they do.

However, by the RAW, this means that any spellcaster who casts Launch Bolt can pull the material component - the bolt in question - from his spell component pouch. This is an actual bolt, and is therefore a valid target for the spell! Sure, it's still consumed by the spell, but it means there's a reason for even the 0th level Launch Bolt: you don't have to actually mark off a bolt from your inventory when you fire it! You happened to have the one you needed in your spell component pouch.

Note that this doesn't mean you can just pull out bolt after bolt and eventually sell them or something like that; the spell component pouch provides material components for spells. It doesn't provide spell components that don't get used for them.

This isn't even all that unreasonable; you ARE spending a 0th level slot, and it's not giving you a ranged touch attack the way your other 0th level spells do. Additionally, it DOES require a material component and a target, so if you're divested of your pouch, it's still a useless spell. However, it can be expanded to stupid-silly levels that work by the RAW, but for which your DM is likely to hit you.

For example...
"Broomsticks in Your Belt Pouch"

Your spell component pouch (usually worn on your belt, hence the title) contains any material component you need for your spell, so long as it is less than 1 gp. Crossbow bolts up to Gargantuan size are less than 1 gp. (Large: 2 sp; Huge: 4 sp; Gargantuan: 8 sp; Colossal: 16 sp)

That's right: by the rules, your spell component pouch contains Gargantuan crossbow bolts if that's what you decide you want to use as the material component for this spell!

Go ahead and snicker at the mental image. I know I was seeing Bugs Bunny the wizard pulling small tree trunks out of his belt pouch.

Done laughing? At least enough to continue on? Okay. Don't get too excited by the monstrous damage this suddenly might let you do. Remember, the spell says it fires the bolt "as if you fired it." This means that if you're firing bolts bigger than intended for your size category (or smaller, for that matter), you suffer the "improper size" penalties for wielding such. I don't recall off hand what the penalties for a Medium creature wielding a Gargantuan weapon are, and can't find them in my ~5 min. search, but I imagine they're sufficient that you're not liable to hit anything you'd want to. (Heck, it might be that the RAW say you can't wield weapons more than 1-2 size categories bigger than you, but I am not positive.)

So, then, what good is this, if you're going to fire the bolt and not hit anything?

Well, check out the name of this trick, again. Gargantuan bolts are likely big enough that you could sit astraddle them, and have your party lined up in front or behind you. Provided the rules aren't "you can't wield weapons that much bigger than you," the hefty penalties might still make you fail the DC 5 attack roll to hit a target square, but even so, you can launch yourself 80 feet! Up to 800 feet if you're willing to be at -10 for range increment penalties in your efforts to hit that target square.

If you're okay with bringing out the grenade chart to see where you land (likely within 20 feet of your target square), you just traveled a marvelous distance in one standard action! I would expect the DM to tell you to roll falling damage, though, at the very least. So be prepared to mitigate that somehow.

(Obviously, many DMs will quite rationally say that the abstraction of the spell component pouch containing any material component under 1 gp in value is not carte blanche to have it hold impossibly huge things, nor to justify you carrying around so many as all that. The RAW do support it, but it's not at all unreasonable to rule 0 when the abstractions of the rules start flying completely in the face of common sense. The DM may even have some leeway, here, as he is probably in his rights to tell you at some point, if you've had NO chance to replenish it, that your spell component pouch is running out of your favorite material components.

However, it doesn't stop you from actually buying them specifically, assuming you can figure out a way to carry them with you on your adventures!)

Interestingly, if you can manage to withstand the discomfort (and probable falling-damage-danger) of this means of transport, you could commission or craft a gargantuan masterwork crossbow bolt enchanted to cast Launch Bolt on command. Command-word activation of a 0th level spell on a no-body-slot magic item is 1800 gp market value. This is being enchanted as a wondrous item to avoid the "ammunition" rules (including being consumed and making 50 of them a pop). So as a weapon, it's strictly Masterwork. It has the property of casting Launch Bolt on a touched bolt at its user's command.

Use it as a very large "light crossbow" to fire regular-sized bolts once per standard action, or use it as a highly unorthodox mount to launch yourself on its "back" repeatedly up to 800 ft. per standard action! Again, be ready to provide a means of surviving the arguable falling damage.

For a more "standard" trick for which I cannot take original credit...
Chain-gunning Crossbow Bolts

This one is probably not broken, though it is heavy in optimization. I could see a reasonable build designed around it, though getting up to 6th level would be less than thematic. It involves using metamagic on our 0th level spell and building an Arcane Thesis around it.

Reach Spell makes it a ray, but doesn't change the "in your possession" part of the targeting requirement), +2 to spell level
Chain Spell (lets a ranged targeted spell chain to your CL additional valid targets), +3 to spell level.
Split Ray (lets you fire two rays with one casting of the parent spell, targeting up to two (one with each ray) targets), +2 to spell level.

Arcane Thesis Reach Chain Launch Bolt is a 3rd level spell slot, due to Arcane Thesis reducing each metamagic cost by 1 spell level. Minimum level is 6th, because that's the earliest you can meet Arcane Thesis's skill prereq. Casting as an 8th level caster (+2 CL for Launch Bolt from Arcane Thesis), you fire a ray at one bolt and it chains to 8 more. Nothing says you must fire them all at the same target. I am not sure whether you would roll 8 to-hit rolls, or roll one to-hit roll and apply it to all the bolts.

Both ways have their advantages and disadvantages, and probably balance out, so it's up to you and your DM how you want to handle it for a balance purpose. If somebody has a parsing of the rules that clarify which is more accurate by the RAW, it would be appreciated. I will say that "roll once for them all" is a lot faster at the table, as long as all 8 bolts are identical wrt their enhancement bonuses to hit.

When you level up to 7 and open up 4th level slots, you can (because of Arcane Thesis) apply Split Ray for a net +1 more to the spell slot it takes. Now you fire two rays at two distinct bolts, and each ray chains from those bolts to 9 more bolts. That's a total of 20 bolts fired for a 4th level spell slot!

(Interestingly, the material component is still 1 crossbow bolt, and that is still technically provided by your spell component pouch. So you only need to provide 19 of these, as your pouch provides the last. Still, for simplicity's sake, I'd go ahead and provide them all. That way, you can hit them with Greater Magic Weapon for a +1 to hit and damage on all of them, and don't have to worry about one of them lacking it.)

And yes, at level 8, your GMW adds +2 enhancement, so you can take your (now 22) bolts and make all of them +2. Things get even more fun if you start buying magic bolts to use with it.

If you can scrape together a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell for 14,000 gp (not cheap at the levels we're talking!), you can lower the spell slot requirements to 1 and 2, which IS a significant boost in power (as they have the same net effect as the 3 and 4 versions). This might be getting up there due to repeatability, at this point, though still the damage is only a little high on the optimization chart for this level. You're CERTAINLY not affording much in the way of enchanted bolts if you've done this.

So far, while this is powerful, I don't think it's particularly beyond the pale; in a game with other skilled optimizers, this should fit right in. Recall that the build required will look something like this:

L1: Wiz 1 - Scribe Scroll; point blank shot
L3: Wiz 3 - Reach Spell (which you can't even really USE yet)
L5: Wis 5 - Split Ray
L6: Wiz 6 (or PrC 1, if you have the reqs) - Arcane Thesis (Launch Bolt)

You need the metamagic rod to make the trick work at all with that build. Alternatively, you could put Chain Spell in at 5th level and either go for a metamgic rod of split ray (only 9,000 gp), or you could take all three (making your 1st level feat as useless as your third at the time you take it!), and not be able to use everything youv'e invested in properly until 7th level.

If you don't take PBS yourself, the spell Heroics out of the Spell Compendium (sor/wiz 2) can give it to you, but still, it'd probably be nice to be able to take a level 1 feat that isn't wholly useless to you for multiple levels.

Negative-Level Metamagic

There are builds that stack on +0 spell level metamagic and let Arcane Thesis make them into -1. It works by the RAW, but that is entering into "exploiting bad writing" territory, since there's no way that an Arcane Thesis is supposed to make adding metamagic reduce the final level of the spell. Stack a ton of +1s on for no net increase? Sure. Stack a bunch of +2s on, then an equal number of +0s, for no net increase, but have more increase the fewer +0s lying around? Definitely violating the spirit, and moving into cheese territory (rather than merely high optimization). At least, that's where I draw the line. Your mileage and DM may vary.

Other Feats to Stack On?

Launch Bolt's targeting (the crossbow bolt) enables the trick above for chain-gunning them, but it does present some interesting issues for finding other useful metamagic feats to apply. It'd be great to find a +1 spell level feat or two, particularly if that'd let us use it at low level (despite the stringent feat requirements we find ourselves facing for this build).

I've found one, Coercive Spell, from Drow of the Underdark, which adds only one to it. It specifically specifies that "any living creature dealt damage by the spell takes a —2 penalty on Will saves for 3 rounds." That wording is very important; it says NOTHING about the target of the spell, and it is undeniable that the beings hit by the crossbow bolt(s) are "dealt damage by the spell." The crossbow bolts' launching as weapons IS part of the spell effect, so the spell caused the damage.

I don't think it likely that the -2 penalty stacks, so chain-gunning the bolts into one target wouldn't work all that well (but man, the multi-target will debuffing!). However, at lower levels, it can make the Launch Bolt not only a "free" crossbow bolt that doesn't take a move action to reload, but give you a 1st level spell slot use that can make the target also more vulnerable to mind-influencing magics. And, once you have Arcane Thesis...? It's a +0 adjustment. No reason NOT to use it, if you know it!


So, any other metamagic feats people can think of that would apply interestingly to this spell, given its unique targeting and characteristics?

Fouredged Sword
2013-07-26, 02:45 PM
Actually I am going to make the argument that the spell does not function as written due to the target line being "a crossbow bolt in your possession".

You can only fire the spell AT a crossbow bolt in your possession, meaning you shoot one crossbow bolt in your possession at ANOTHER crossbow bolt in your possession, as a crossbow bolt is the only valid TARGET and the spell specifies you fire the bolt at a chosen target.

Silly, but RAW. The spell functions in a less than practical manner.

Segev
2013-07-26, 02:53 PM
Technically, no. The spell target is a crossbow bolt in your possession. The spell's effect is to fire that bolt as if you had fired it from a light crossbow. There is no contradiction; the target of the crossbow bolt attack is not the target of the spell.

BowStreetRunner
2013-07-26, 03:56 PM
Yes, they worded the spell wrong. They should not have listed a material component since they already listed the bolt as the spell target. But honestly, if they had worded it correctly the result would have been a reduction in the amount of fun people are having messing around with their mistake. :smallwink:

AmberVael
2013-07-26, 04:12 PM
Spell Component Pouches are mundane items that just about every spellcaster buys. They explicitly have in them any material component the spellcaster needs for his spells, so long as they're less than 1 gp in value.

Where are you getting this part? Because the SRD and the PHB say:

Spell Component Pouch
A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch.

Segev
2013-07-26, 04:33 PM
Oh. Huh. I misremembered spell component pouches, and didn't think to check. Woops. Sorry. ^^;

Well, that only kills the "now it has use as an honest 0th level spell."

And, too, in truth, I agree: they shouldn't have given it a material component. The bolt being the target is sufficient. While yes, I had fun with the mental imagery of the Gargantuan Bolt coming out of the spell component pouch of the Medium (or Small) wizard...I wouldn't expect a DM to allow it. And I'm less than bothered by losing the "free" crossbow bolts from the pouch at normal scale, either; it was just a neat thought.

The spell STILL has some greatly amusing things you can do with it, if you build right, and I think (again, unless the rules on oversized weapons forbids even wielding one that's 3+ size categories larger than you), just having a Gargantuan bolt to ride will make this a vastly hilarious rapid transit spell. (Not without complications, obviously, but...)

Curmudgeon
2013-07-26, 05:20 PM
Crossbow bolts up to Gargantuan size are less than 1 gp. (Large: 2 sp; Huge: 4 sp; Gargantuan: 8 sp; Colossal: 16 sp)
Where are you getting those prices from? Here's all the Player's Handbook says about weapon cost:
Cost: This value is the weapon’s cost in gold pieces (gp) or silver pieces (sp). The cost includes miscellaneous gear that goes with the weapon, such as a scabbard for a sword or a quiver for arrows. This cost is the same for a Small or Medium version of the weapon. A Large version costs twice the listed price. Are you just making up those prices after Large?

Deophaun
2013-07-26, 05:43 PM
Are you just making up those prices after Large?
Rules Compendium pg 152:

A larger version costs twice the noted price per size category larger than Medium. A smaller version costs half the price per two size categories smaller than Medium (round up).

Spuddles
2013-07-26, 05:44 PM
Actually I am going to make the argument that the spell does not function as written due to the target line being "a crossbow bolt in your possession".

You can only fire the spell AT a crossbow bolt in your possession, meaning you shoot one crossbow bolt in your possession at ANOTHER crossbow bolt in your possession, as a crossbow bolt is the only valid TARGET and the spell specifies you fire the bolt at a chosen target.

Silly, but RAW. The spell functions in a less than practical manner.

The target of a spell can be different than the effects of the spell. You can't just read a single entry in the description and make your conclusion from that.

Segev
2013-07-27, 03:12 AM
Since it is a sticking point in whether the "gargantuan bolt travel" method works or not, does anybody have advice on where to actually FIND the rules on wielding weapons sized for larger creatures than you? I have been unable to find it, and yet I could have sworn I'd seen the rules somewhere, at least once.

Curmudgeon
2013-07-27, 03:50 AM
actually FIND the rules on wielding weapons sized for larger creatures than you?
Here:
Inappropriately Sized Weapons

A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.
Basically, you can only wield ranged weapons properly sized for you. That is, any change in size of a missile weapon doesn't put it in the "light, one-handed, or two-handed" categories (because those are melee-only), and thus by RAW you can't wield such an inappropriately sized weapon.

Because Launch Bolt specifies "as if you had fired it from a light crossbow" and you cannot use a light crossbow other than one properly sized for you, you only get Gargantuan bolts if your spellcaster character becomes Gargantuan in size before casting the spell.

Segev
2013-07-27, 05:21 PM
Here:
Basically, you can only wield ranged weapons properly sized for you. That is, any change in size of a missile weapon doesn't put it in the "light, one-handed, or two-handed" categories (because those are melee-only), and thus by RAW you can't wield such an inappropriately sized weapon.

Because Launch Bolt specifies "as if you had fired it from a light crossbow" and you cannot use a light crossbow other than one properly sized for you, you only get Gargantuan bolts if your spellcaster character becomes Gargantuan in size before casting the spell.

Actually...I was going to agree with you, but let me point out one thing in the rules you just quoted: "The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed."

It says it is altered; it has to have an original designation as one of those to be altered. Elsewhere, too, it specifies that you can attack with a light crossbow in each hand as if using a light weapon in each hand, which means you alter it from light to one to two...

So ... no, you can't wield a Gargantuan one. It's beyond two-handed. But you can make the argument for a Huge one. I can see the room to argue the other way, however, so I will not press tihs point. It doesn't really work for a Huge one, anyway, because that's not big ENOUGH to ride on. Too bad. :(

Malroth
2013-07-27, 05:30 PM
so a Goliath or half giant Wizard could launch bolt a Gargantuan crossbow bolt, and if they had human heritage could enlarge person themselves to launch a colossal one.

Scow2
2013-07-27, 05:33 PM
But, when launching the bolt, it doesn't change size - it's always a Ranged weapon, not a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon. There ain't no rule saying you can't fire a collossal crossbow bolt.

Deophaun
2013-07-27, 07:52 PM
It says it is altered; it has to have an original designation as one of those to be altered. Elsewhere, too, it specifies that you can attack with a light crossbow in each hand as if using a light weapon in each hand, which means you alter it from light to one to two...(
Except it doesn't say that. It says that you take a penalty as if attacking with two light weapons, but it doesn't say that light crossbows function as light weapons. The comparison to light weapons is strictly for the TWF penalty, nothing else.

The best you could do is a large light crossbow, as that you could wield with two hands while taking a -2 penalty to the attack roll. That would throw an additional -2 on to the attack roll with launch bolt. Not worth it.

Curmudgeon
2013-07-27, 07:57 PM
"The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed."

It says it is altered; it has to have an original designation as one of those to be altered.
I don't see where it says that. A Medium light crossbow altered one size to become a Large great crossbow is altered, with a final designation that is not light, one-handed, or two-handed.
If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all. Or are you claiming that it's impossible to alter any missile weapon?

Segev
2013-07-27, 09:47 PM
Eh, I don't really want to get into arguing this. The language about altering "to anything other than" the types listed expects there to be an alteration. Without an original type, there's no way to define to what type it alters. I can certainly see the argument that this means no wrong-sized ranged weapons can be used.

Now, the question becomes, is there a way to salvage it if that is the case? Because riding gargantuan crossbow bolts still sounds like a fun trick to pull off, if it can be done in the rules.

Splendor
2013-07-28, 07:57 PM
"Material Component: The crossbow bolt to be fired (1 sp)." - Spell compendium

To me this pretty much says the bolt isn't any other size then standard. It can't be Gargantuan. The 1sp price is before any enchantments are laid upon it, because the spell specifically says the bolt can be enchanted.

I've always liked to enchant crossbow with this spell. Beats rapid reload.

Segev
2013-07-28, 08:12 PM
The material component price listing is curious, but it says it can be enchanted, which also means it can be masterwork. Since masterwork is not a post-production price addition, and most definitely makes it cost more than 1 sp, I think that the RAW there is not prescriptive, but informative of typical circumstance. Else, it couldn't be masterwork, which means you couldn't enchant it, and the spell says you can do the latter without expressly calling out the former.

The long and the short of that, then, is that for it to be possible to use an enchanted bolt, it must be possible to use a masterwork one. To use a masterwork one, the "1 sp" must be informative of a typical happenstance, not prescriptive of the only kind of bolt that can be targeted. At the very least, different material properties must be available which would make that pricing invalid. Thus, larger bolts are valid.

Pointing back to "as if you fired it" in the rules, this also seems to indicate that there is some differing sizing allowed. After all, what if "you" are Large?