[3.5] Help needed for 20-level arcane melee gish near-op build

[ericp65]

Hello all,

So, there's this female drow (Fandral'ere Streeaka) who was born and raised in typical drow society, trained in fighting, arcane casting, and divine casting. She showed the most affinity and aptitude in melee, so that's her primary schtick. In building her 20-level progression (including level buyoff), I've sketched out the following, with a gaping hole in levels 11 - 15:

Factotum 1/Warblade 1 - 3/Factotum 2/Wizard 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Warblade 4/Dervish 1/Abjurant Champion 1/? (levels 11 - 15)/Tempest 1 - 5.

Around 10th level, she had a change of heart event that caused her to reject her race's ways, so she escaped their society and headed to the surface world, embracing a CG mindset. The event isn't specified in her backstory, so suggestions for that are also welcome.

The concept is for a "tornado of blades" with the ability to buff self and allies, and debuff foes, also to deliver spells while fighting, if possible. How might this progression be revised and completed in order to bring the character as close to optimized as possible while preserving the concept? I want to shape up this character's non-epic base before fleshing out the remainder of her complete build, resulting in a 32nd level epic character.

Early on, she fought with a pair of longswords, but she can be more versatile than that (longsword + hand xbow is an attractive option).

Character is native to the Forgotten Realms. No gestalt. Everything else is on the table for consideration. TIA for any help!

[BowStreetRunner]

I think you have too much going on here. You might want to include an explanation of why you went with each level the way you did.

I would take Factotum 1-2 before starting Warblade. That will give you +1 to IL when you start to select your maneuvers. Otherwise, the 1/2 IL from Factotum does nothing for you.

Why Cloistered Cleric at all? If you are just looking for turning you might try a dip in Sacred Exorcist later on. Or is this a truly evil drow, so not an option?

Unless you are actually planning on advancing your divine casting, why not take all 5 levels of Abjurant Champion?

[ericp65]

I think you have too much going on here. You might want to include an explanation of why you went with each level the way you did.

I would take Factotum 1-2 before starting Warblade. That will give you +1 to IL when you start to select your maneuvers. Otherwise, the 1/2 IL from Factotum does nothing for you.

Why Cloistered Cleric at all? If you are just looking for turning you might try a dip in Sacred Exorcist later on. Or is this a truly evil drow, so not an option?

Unless you are actually planning on advancing your divine casting, why not take all 5 levels of Abjurant Champion?

That's me: start with a crappy build, then tear it apart and rebuild it to be viable and successful *L* Ooh, good point re: Factotum levels! This is why the "build" is currently a rough sketch :smallsmile: I wasn't sure which divine class would serve to represent her religious instruction as an Underdark drow. She began as evil...which invites the danger in the build of having entered a class that will no longer benefit her after her change of heart to good. So, something that's appropriate and beneficial for entry into Abjurant Champion is welcome, and yes, more levels in that PrC will be fine.

[BowStreetRunner]

Factotum 5 does get Opportunistic Piety, which could represent both her religious training and her change of heart.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You don't have a lot of gishiness going on with that build. Both your arcane and divine casting are so minor they're practically nonexistent.

You're trying to do everything and end up with a bunch of weak abilities that are irrelevant against any enemy of appropiate CR.
To be effective with your concept you should get some synergy between the different parts of your character.
Some ideas:

Warblade 1/Wizard 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 9 or 10/Abjurant Champion 4 or 5
- 9 Maneuvers, 2 Stances, 17 BAB, arcane CL 17, 9th level spells
- replace Warblade with Swordsage for more/different maneuvers/stances in exchange for 1 BAB
- doesn't allow evil (talk to your Dm?)

Crusader 1/Cleric 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/some cleric prc 5
- similar to the above but with divine casting, needs refluffing to fit into FR

Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5
- level 18 wizard casting, BAB 17, massive passive benefits, extra actions
- no maneuvers

If you just want a little casting for fluff reasons take the Magical Training feat.

[Randomguy]

In general the gish standards are 9th level spells and BAB +16 or greater.

Here are some suggestions if you want to completely restructure your build to fit those requirements :

Duskblade 3/Wizard 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist (refluffed if necessary) 9.
That gets you Cl 17, BAB + 16, the ability to channel spells in melee combat and an association with the divine through Sacred Exorcist, but no actual divine casting.

There are many other possible builds, though. For example, I chose duskblade levels for the "channeling spells in melee combat" but there's a metamagic feat in phb2 called Smiting Spell that lets you do that a bit without duskblade levels.

You could also use the typical sorcadin build: Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8, which also meets the main gish requirements but no divine casting.

If you're open to taking levels in Sublime Chord, then you can free up a lot more levels for other stuff like duskblade, cleric, factotum or warblade. Otherwise you probably won't have much room for factotum pre-epic.


If you only want help with those 5 missing levels then here are some suggestions:
For you one wizard level, either focus specialize in Transmutation or be a conjurer and take the Abrupt Jaunt ACF.

If you rearrange things so instead of Abjurant Champion 1/? 5 it's Duskblade 3/Abjurant Champion 3 then you get the ability to channel spells in melee as well as Combat Casting as a bonus feat, but you also lose out on 3 levels of wizard casting.

You'd probably be best off by just finishing off Abjurant Champion and then taking a level of Spellsword. That gives you another +5 BAB and +5 levels of wizard casting, as well as all the neat Abjurant Champion class features and some ability to ignore some arcane spell failure chance.

[Anium]

I think if you convinced your dm to take the chameleon class, meshed with factotum you would be set. You want to do everything, well, just not at the same time. Or just factotum and screw the divine casting...

[Ace Nex]

MINI-GISH HANDBOOK [Mostly my favorite Gish Builds]

Wizard 5/Swordsage 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 8/Init of the Sevenfold Veil 6

Note: Warblade and Swordsage are rather similar, but many Gishes choose warblade because of the BAB. I like the maneuver selections/more maneuvers available to SS so I'll be using them, but feel free to swap them out.

You get 9th level spells and 7th level maneuvers. Your double warding and counters are more than enough to protect yourself, and your buffs from magic and IL pack a powerful punch. If you don't mind missing out on 9th level spells and want insane single target damage/boost to AC, swap a level of wizard for swordsage. You get wis to AC (polymorph AO yourself into a high Wis creature) and combining arcane wrath/arcane strike with Diamond Nightmare Blade can pack a POWERFUL punch causing your single target damage to break into the thousands. JPM lets you quicken and empower your spells after you use a strike, which is a pretty good follow up. It also gives you DR/Evil permanently equal to a spell given up's levelX2. That means pop your highest spell and enjoy the DR that hardly anything will overcome. The downside of this build is you do have a BAB of only +13, which isn't fantastic, but combined with things like True Strike, Skillful weapons (BAB becomes 3/4 level), emerald razor, and a few other spells hitting things shouldn't be an issue. Speaking of hitting, between your wards, counters, and spells no one should hit you. Ever.

Wizard 5/Incantrix 6/Swordsage 1/JPM 8

If you don't like IOTSFV, Incantrix gets you several metamagic feats for free. While you lose your wards, you do get immunity to drain which is lovely for casters/everyone really. It's rather similar to the build above, even to the +13 BAB and 7th maneuvers and 9th spells.

Warblade 1/Wizard 4/JPM 10/Abjurant Champion 5

This is probably one of my more favorite builds. While not as protective as the others, (no wards, no hardy spirit) you do end up with 8th level maneuvers and 9th level spells with a BAB of +18. You can switch it up and try to get 9th level maneuvers but spells>maneuvers more than half the time. You also get a free True Rez on yourself 1/week from the JPM capstone.

Straightforward Gish (No TOB)
Fighter 2/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 8/Arbjurent Champion 5
Very straightforward. BAB of +17, 9th level spells. No TOB stuff, and it's pretty vanilla with only 1 feat lost (combat casting) to get into prestige classes.

For most of these I use wizard because I like Wizard the most, but sorc and Wu-Jen work pretty well in a pinch too.

There are monk gishes out there that can be pretty solid, (especially when you start stacking size categories/monk levels with superior unarmed strike, monks belt, greater mighty wallop, enlarge person, blood wind and a few other spells) for single target and they can be flavorful. Monks do suffer from medium BAB and class features that aren't great, but they can work pretty well.

FEATS:

One of the most important parts about a Gish is their feat selection. I won't go over everything, but I'll go over a few of my favorites

Practiced Spellcaster: If you give up a few caster levels and you want to get them back, this is the feat for you. Note that it doesn't give you more spells, it just boosts up your caster level by 4 to a cap of your total level. (EX. A wizard 5/Fighter 5 with Practiced Spellcaster deals 9D6 with a fireball spell, not 5d6. They cannot however cast cone of cold, or spells higher than 3rd level).

Arcane Strike: This is required on almost every arcane gish build out there. You give up a spell, and get the spell level to hit and levelXD4 damage on your melee attack, and doing so is a free action. This lets you make up/exceed the BAB gap and apply some extra single target damage on top. With metamagic rods and other tricks you can easily get bonus up rather high. This feat becomes exceptionally ridiculous with the maneuvers Ruby and Diamond Nightmare blade, as the damage is also thrown into the multipliers.

Improved Initiative: Those who go first, strike first. Generally, who ever strikes first wins.

Transdimentional Spell: If you exploit blink or like being on the etheral plane, this is a must for metamagic feats. It lets you hit both for a +1 boost.

Combat Casting: Solid choice as well, sucks whenever you fail the check and you lose your spell, so make sure you never fail that check.

Spell Feat Combos: Energy Substitution(Cold)+Piercing Cold+Flash Frost+Lord of Uttercold (Optional) or Energy Substitution (Fire)+Blistering Spell+Fiery Spell.

While I'm not a huge fan of blasting spells, fireballs can sometimes be fun, so if you want to specialize into it go ahead. What these do is they overcome immunity/resistance to your element (though it is half damage) and really pump up the damage of those elements.

Low Level Spells that help you in melee:
True Strike, Blades of flame, Blades of Blood, Find the Gap, Emerald Razor, shield, Mage Armor, mirror image and blink are all fun ones.

Final Note: Arcane Spellsurge is a deliciously ridiculous spell. It pretty much quickens every spell you cast for rounds/level. Once you get 7th level spells, look it up, it's pretty nice.

[ericp65]

You don't have a lot of gishiness going on with that build. Both your arcane and divine casting are so minor they're practically nonexistent.

You're trying to do everything and end up with a bunch of weak abilities that are irrelevant against any enemy of appropiate CR.
To be effective with your concept you should get some synergy between the different parts of your character.
Some ideas:

Warblade 1/Wizard 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 9 or 10/Abjurant Champion 4 or 5
- 9 Maneuvers, 2 Stances, 17 BAB, arcane CL 17, 9th level spells
- replace Warblade with Swordsage for more/different maneuvers/stances in exchange for 1 BAB
- doesn't allow evil (talk to your Dm?)

Crusader 1/Cleric 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/some cleric prc 5
- similar to the above but with divine casting, needs refluffing to fit into FR

Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5
- level 18 wizard casting, BAB 17, massive passive benefits, extra actions
- no maneuvers

If you just want a little casting for fluff reasons take the Magical Training feat.

That last progression looks most suitable. For this character, melee combat is most important, and she's fine without any divine casting, as long as she has some arcane. In the Underdark, she served her house by being a soldier, mostly patrolling the city's perimeter, participating in surface raids, the usual Drow stuff.

[ericp65]

Factotum 5 does get Opportunistic Piety, which could represent both her religious training and her change of heart.

Yes, that works, and I can work it into her backstory easily. I forgot that Fandral'ere hasn't paid any attention to any Powers since shunning Lloth (she left the Underdark in 1338 DR).

[ericp65]

In general the gish standards are 9th level spells and BAB +16 or greater.

Here are some suggestions if you want to completely restructure your build to fit those requirements :

Duskblade 3/Wizard 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist (refluffed if necessary) 9.
That gets you Cl 17, BAB + 16, the ability to channel spells in melee combat and an association with the divine through Sacred Exorcist, but no actual divine casting.

There are many other possible builds, though. For example, I chose duskblade levels for the "channeling spells in melee combat" but there's a metamagic feat in phb2 called Smiting Spell that lets you do that a bit without duskblade levels.

You could also use the typical sorcadin build: Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8, which also meets the main gish requirements but no divine casting.

If you're open to taking levels in Sublime Chord, then you can free up a lot more levels for other stuff like duskblade, cleric, factotum or warblade. Otherwise you probably won't have much room for factotum pre-epic.


If you only want help with those 5 missing levels then here are some suggestions:
For you one wizard level, either focus specialize in Transmutation or be a conjurer and take the Abrupt Jaunt ACF.

If you rearrange things so instead of Abjurant Champion 1/? 5 it's Duskblade 3/Abjurant Champion 3 then you get the ability to channel spells in melee as well as Combat Casting as a bonus feat, but you also lose out on 3 levels of wizard casting.

You'd probably be best off by just finishing off Abjurant Champion and then taking a level of Spellsword. That gives you another +5 BAB and +5 levels of wizard casting, as well as all the neat Abjurant Champion class features and some ability to ignore some arcane spell failure chance.

I thought about Duskblade, too; that would work well, and obviate the need for Wizard levels. Holy warriors and bardic types don't fit her concept. Also thought about specializing in conjuration/summoning, with a preference for monstrous vermin and other Underdark denizens, but that's moot if she goes Duskblade. Hmmm...

Spellsword looks ideal here, as Fandral'ere typically fights wearing medium or light armor. Is this class better to fit in before or after Abjurant Champion? How 'bout this for the first eleven levels: Factotum 1 - 2/Duskblade 1 - 3/Spellsword 1/[more class levels that increase BAB and CL). Any problems with this, or is it decent enough to then arrange classes for the rest of the build?

[ericp65]

I think if you convinced your dm to take the chameleon class, meshed with factotum you would be set. You want to do everything, well, just not at the same time. Or just factotum and screw the divine casting...

Can't get approval for Chameleon, but I'm not bothered by that. I'm happy with arcane and not divine casting ability.

[Metahuman1]

Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5
- level 18 wizard casting, BAB 17, massive passive benefits, extra actions
- no maneuvers



Personally, I'd knock this build back to Abjurant Champion 4 at the end, and take Warbalde 1 as your first level. That get's you fifth level maneuvers with out costing you 9th lvl spells.

I'd ask the Dm about making Martial Scrips work like scrolls so that you can learn the maneuvers for good off them.

Finish out both Prc's in Epic, Drop a level of Factotum in there around level 23 or so, and then just run Eternal Blade levels. Your hitten em with your book learning!


For feats, make sure you take combat reflexes, Knowledge devotion with enough boosts from ranks/int mod and Items to get that +5, Travel devotion with a couple of night sticks and a visit to that magic location that grants limited uses of turn undead, TWF, Improved TWF, Greater TWF, Combat expertise, Improved Combat Expertise, Karmatic Strike, Robilars Gambit, Improved Trip, Knock Down and Double Strike. Also, grab that epic feat for infinant aoo's and any ones that look like they'd massively boost up your TWF.

Now, once you have a factotum level, your gonna go to The Frog God's Fane. Your gonna use the magic item pricing rules in the DMG to make it less valuable, and your gonna keep getting and retraining the feats you get from there into Font of Inspiration. For more Hitten em with your book learning!

Get a magic Item of Lions Charge, continuous effect, for pounce.

For maneuvers, priority list Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw (But don't grab that 8th lvl maneuver, it's kinda weak.), Iron Heart (See previous.) White Raven, (Focus on things that involve Charging. But make sure to grab White Raven Tactics.)Stone Dragon (Here you only want mountain hammer and the 9th lvl maneuver, the latter just cause +2d6 Con damage to the attack if it hits is NASTY!)

This will turn you into a spell slinging blindly fast living dark elf blender of multiple blades and high damage output.



Other good things.

See if the DM will let you make and affiliation that grants and ability as a membership benefit that lets you use Int in place of Con for Fort saves and grants the Marshals Motivate Int Aura as another benefit, then take Keen Intellect and Insightful Reflexes. Then see if the Dm will allow Faerie Mysteries Initiate. Congrats, Con is now the stat were you say "Any number not a negative Modifier means I'm good to go." Along with Wisdom and Charisma. And Dex is greatly reduced in importance to being an indisputably secondary stat. Your Stat priority is now Int<Str<Dex<Con<Wis and Cha. Con cause you still want at least a 10 there to keep penalty's off concentration, while Cha and Wis are "Any number better then 0 means I'm in business."

[ericp65]

Wow, I'm overwhelmed by the number of ways to sculpt this character now *L* I really like the idea of giving her Warblade levels (but where in the progression, and how many levels?), and I want to get both BAB and caster level up high as early as possible. Duskblade is in; Spellsword looks like a useful enough addition, just not sure yet whether to take more than one level of it.

Again, her first ten levels represent her life in the Underdark, mostly as a respected combatant of a Drow house. After that, she made her way to the surface, then searched for and found another renegade Drow, who was an ally she admired before leaving the Underdark. Her crossover into Epic territory saw her fighting evil in the Damara/Vaasa region of Faerun, where she eventually became a baroness in the new Kingdom of Bloodstone.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If you go with just a single Warblade level taking it at level 9 allows you to get both Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics.

[ericp65]

If you go with just a single Warblade level taking it at level 9 allows you to get both Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics.

...and Initiator Level would be 5, right? Not bad for the first step into Blade Magic!

So, here's my tentative 20-level progression, which yields BAB +19 and CL 16, if I've done the math correctly:

Factotum 1/Wizard 1/Duskblade 1 - 3/Spellsword 1/Duskblade 4 - 5/Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 1 - 7/Abjurant Champion 1 - 4.

If I add Factotum 2 at 23rd level, that leaves eleven epic levels. I could finish Abjurant Champion and then go with ten levels of Elven Swiftblade, or split between ES and Eternal Blade, or finish out JPM 8 - 10) and again split between ES and EB...not sure yet.

[ericp65]

Now for the tentative epic level progression:

Eternal Blade 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Factotum 2/Elven Swiftblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 8 - 10/Eternal Blade 2 - 3/Elven Swiftblade 2 - 4.

Please note that Elven Swiftblade and Swiftblade are two different PrCs.

This yields BAB +25, CL 25, and IL 23.

I see some good benefits for having Knowledge Devotion and Eternal Blade levels, and I like the way EB and Elven Swiftblade combine (netting Improved Uncanny Dodge!).

Is this progression sufficient, or would there be additional benefit to remixing it?

[Petrocorus]

Now for the tentative epic level progression:

Eternal Blade 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Factotum 2/Elven Swiftblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 8 - 10/Eternal Blade 2 - 3/Elven Swiftblade 2 - 4.

Please note that Elven Swiftblade and Swiftblade are two different PrCs.

This should bring BAB to +25, CL to 20, and IL to 18, yes? No?

I see some good benefits for having Knowledge Devotion and Eternal Blade levels, and I like the way EB and Elven Swiftblade combine (netting Improved Uncanny Dodge!).

Is this progression sufficient, or would there be additional benefit to remixing it?

Where is the Elven Swiftblade PrC from?

[ericp65]

Where is the Elven Swiftblade PrC from?

Have a look here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Elven_Swiftblade_(DnD_Prestiege_Class)).

The article is unfinished, but all the useful data is there.

[ericp65]

Feats under consideration:

Note: feat progression is per Iron Heroes, so one as a first-level character, and one bonus feat every even level through 20th; one feat at 21st level, and one bonus feat every odd level thereafter.

(Flaw: Short Temper -> Two-Weapon Fighting)
(Flaw: Powerful Enemy -> Improved Initiative)
Talent (Arcana Evolved): Ambidexterity
Ceremonial Feat (Arcana Evolved): Intuitive Sense

Imperious Command, Weapon Focus (longsword), Knowledge Devotion, Combat Casting, Practiced Spellcaster, Arcane Strike, Arcane Discipline (summoning domain), Extra Spell, Extra Granted Maneuver, Extra Stance, Power Attack, Versatile Spellcaster, Weapon Finesse, Metamagic School Focus, Fiery Burst, Sculpt Spell, Blade Meditation, Two-Weapon Defense, Extra Readied Maneuver.

Should I change any of these to make the most of her abilities, class features, etc.?

This character fights sometimes with a paired Elven Thinblade and Elven Lightblade (to take advantage of Elven Swiftblade PrC features), but will use any simple/martial weapons that will benefit her the most in combat. So, suggestions for weapons are also welcome.