Bonus spells for everyone?

[Pinkie Pyro]

How would it affect game play if every intelligent creature got bonus arcane/ divine spells based on their int/wis?

IE: fighter with 13 int would be able to cast 1 cantrip and 1 first level spell.
or a 3rd level monk with 20 wis could cast 2 orisons, 2 first level spells, and 1 second level spell.

EDIT: you're still limited by caster level = hit die, so at level 1, even with int 20, you can still only cast a 1st level spell at max.

[TaiLiu]

Depending on how you do it, crazy or worthless.

For one: what spell list do these players have access to?

[Waddacku]

Also how do you determine what levels of spells they can access?

[eggynack]

So, a 5th level fighter with 20 intelligence would get two first level wizard spells, and one second and third level wizard spell? I have the feeling, and it's a rather strong feeling, that this would be the strongest class feature this new fighter would have. Spells are fantabulous like that. Realistically, this can only be a balancing factor, because low tier classes get more power, and high tier classes either don't get power, or get a marginal increase, but if every character's best class feature is wizard spells, that makes things rather samey.

[Pinkie Pyro]

They would have access to cleric and wizard/sorcerer spell lists, but they'd have to learn the spells, like a wizard copying a scroll to his spell book.

even assuming people cheesed this as much as possible, it still means most of the classes would have to put some extra points into a stat they might use only for the bonus spells.

[limejuicepowder]

So, a 5th level fighter with 20 intelligence would get two first level wizard spells, and one second and third level wizard spell? I have the feeling, and it's a rather strong feeling, that this would be the strongest class feature this new fighter would have. Spells are fantabulous like that. Realistically, this can only be a balancing factor, because low tier classes get more power, and high tier classes either don't get power, or get a marginal increase, but if every character's best class feature is wizard spells, that makes things rather samey.

It would make things really wonky....like why would you play a fighter, then optimize the spells? Why not just play a wizard? The stat demands would also make most classes more MAD, something many of the lower tiers struggle with already.

If I wanted to play a super high-magic campaign like this rule would suggest, I would give every non-casting class the SLA ability of the factotum instead (and make it independent of inspiration points). I would not try to boost the power of classes by giving them yet another ability to pull them in a different direction.

[Amidus Drexel]

How would it affect game play if every intelligent creature got bonus arcane/ divine spells based on their int/wis?

IE: fighter with 13 int would be able to cast 1 cantrip and 1 first level spell.

EDIT: you're still limited by caster level = hit die, so at level 1, even with int 20, you can still only cast a 1st level spell at max.

Factotums would suddenly be even better. Monks and other partially Wis-based classes get a notable boost too.

[Pinkie Pyro]

It would make things really wonky....like why would you play a fighter, then optimize the spells? Why not just play a wizard? The stat demands would also make most classes more MAD, something many of the lower tiers struggle with already.

If I wanted to play a super high-magic campaign like this rule would suggest, I would give every non-casting class the SLA ability of the factotum instead (and make it independent of inspiration points). I would not try to boost the power of classes by giving them yet another ability to pull them in a different direction.

good point, the fighter would have some trouble casting regular arcane spells in full plate, but they'd still have divine...

[Matticussama]

It would make more sense to offer bonus maneuvers from ToB to the martial classes as opposed to bonus spells. Use the same chart as bonus spells and key the ability off of the class in question so that it makes sense. So a Fighter with 20 strength gets 2 1st level maneuvers, and 1 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5 level maneuver at the appropriate levels. All of this without even having to multiclass into ToB classes. When combined with multiclassing into ToB classes it gets even better.

[eggynack]

They would have access to cleric and wizard/sorcerer spell lists, but they'd have to learn the spells, like a wizard copying a scroll to his spell book.

even assuming people cheesed this as much as possible, it still means most of the classes would have to put some extra points into a stat they might use only for the bonus spells.
So, they'd actually get casting that's better than I claimed. That's a little on the crazy side.

It would make things really wonky....like why would you play a fighter, then optimize the spells? Why not just play a wizard? The stat demands would also make most classes more MAD, something many of the lower tiers struggle with already.

Basically, yeah. If you play a fighter, the most optimal choice would be wizard/cleric casting, but if you're optimizing wizard/cleric casting, you should play a wizard or cleric. It's a bit on the circular side, but that's basically how it'd be. I agree that a factotum style majig is probably the way to go. Things should be personalized to the relevant classes, rather than just tossed onto everyone in the same way. Just copying factotum power onto everyone might not be the way to do it, but it's closer.

[Pinkie Pyro]

to be entirely honest, this is less about class features and more fluff. why can't a smart enough fighter study a bit and be able to cast simple spells without taking a level of wizard/sorcerer? or more importantly, why can't anyone pray for assistance/power from their god, but get less than someone dedicated to that god's cause?

[eggynack]

to be entirely honest, this is less about class features and more fluff. why can't a smart enough fighter study a bit and be able to cast simple spells without taking a level of wizard/sorcerer? or more importantly, why can't anyone pray for assistance/power from their god, but get less than someone dedicated to that god's cause?
Giving fighters spells in this manner can never be fluff. If you hand low spells/day wizard casting to a fighter, that's going to be their single most powerful asset. I dunno if it exists already, but just make a feat that gives cantrips or orisons, depending on what the guy wants. You get to study for some magic tricks, but you're not crazy. You could also make one for firsts, if you want. That level of casting probably wouldn't break the game, if you got it reasonably late.

[Matticussama]

That is what rules like the Unearthed Arcana Incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) rules are for. A Fighter who is rather intelligent could have the potential to learn magic, but shouldn't just learn it automatically.

A Wizard spends years training to cast spells; a Cleric spends years dedicating themselves to their god(s). Fighters just suddenly knowing magic just because they're smart makes no sense. However, introducing the incantation rules and allowing a Fighter - in character - to learn them if they can make the skill checks (i.e. lots of practice and hands-on training) makes more sense than just offering them as bonuses.

[Pinkie Pyro]

Giving fighters spells in this manner can never be fluff. If you hand low spells/day wizard casting to a fighter, that's going to be their single most powerful asset. I dunno if it exists already, but just make a feat that gives cantrips or orisons, depending on what the guy wants. You get to study for some magic tricks, but you're not crazy. You could also make one for firsts, if you want. That level of casting probably wouldn't break the game, if you got it reasonably late.

that sounds like the best way to do it, actually. though then it seems like for a feat you should get the full amount of spells for that level, or else you might as well just get a few wands or scrolls and UMD them...

[eggynack]

that sounds like the best way to do it, actually. though then it seems like for a feat you should get the full amount of spells for that level, or else you might as well just get a few wands or scrolls and UMD them...
Perhaps you should just set a regular limit, untied to statistics of any kind. Have the feat grant like three first level wizard slots, maybe some cantrip slots, make the feat only accessible at around level five, and have no other feats in the line. The goal here is to aim for underpowered rather than overpowered. If the casting granted is powerful enough, any character's most optimal choice would be casting, instead of that just being true for a pile of classes.

[TuggyNE]

to be entirely honest, this is less about class features and more fluff. why can't a smart enough fighter study a bit and be able to cast simple spells without taking a level of wizard/sorcerer? or more importantly, why can't anyone pray for assistance/power from their god, but get less than someone dedicated to that god's cause?

There's various ways to do this, but they all cost character resources, such as taking the Magical Training feat, or require broad changes to the campaign as a whole, such as the UA options.

[eggynack]

There's various ways to do this, but they all cost character resources, such as taking the Magical Training feat, or require broad changes to the campaign as a whole, such as the UA options.
That's the one. I knew it was a thing that actually existed somewhere. Any step towards giving magical ability to unmagical folks would probably involve either buffing that feat, or giving it a short feat chain.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I actually thin this is a pretty cool idea. Tons of fictional sources feature magic systems where dabbling with magic possible. It feels like it would work best in a system where true casters don't exist. Some people could optimize casting taking base classes that grant abilities tied to a casting stat and call themselves wizards or clerics, while others just dabble learning just a bit of magic.

Casting focused characters could eventually make their way to classes that granted extra spell slots and the like.

[ericgrau]

I think it's possible for bonus spell to keep up with full casting but only if you focus on it entirely. I may think less of spells than most but on a fighter I'd still put one mental stat first, strength second and con third. Because honestly the first spell you cast in a fight matters much more than the other 30, so even having one max level spell would be nice. And this spell would not be melee related at all. Maybe I'd gish-buff with lower level spells, but not the max 1-2.

Armor would be a big issue. Would there still be arcane spell failure in armor for these bonus spells? Because being forced into divine spells or a melee without body armor might make me rethink those priorities.

[Randomocity132]

As long as you justify it in some manner and the players are for it, I could see some great combinations for rogues and fighters.

[Gadora]

Wait, so my wizard can spend his bonus spells to pick up cleric spells? Dang... entry into theurgic classes just got a heck of a lot easier.:smalltongue: