Races/Templates If You Could Ignore Up to +4 LA

[asnys]

Just a question born of idle curiosity. LA seems to be usually considered a bad trade, especially for spellcasters. But let's suppose you're allowed a certain amount of "free" LA that doesn't count - let's say +4. Maybe you're soloing or something. What templates and races would be best if the level adjustment were reduced by +4?

[Psyren]

Unbodied (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm) would be pretty awesome with 0 LA. You're a telepath who can impersonate anyone and walk through walls; in mutant terms you'd be omega-level.

[Blackhawk748]

Half Fiend, Half Dragon, Half Elemental, hell most of the Half templates, their all decent but not for the LA you need to eat

[ericgrau]

Pixie for endless flight, endless greater invisibility, SR, DR and some nice ability score bumps. Normally I go after pixie rogues. But heck without any LA be a caster with long range spells and rain death from an untouchable distance. Especially if this is solo. Some of the longest range spells are illusions (especially good if invisible), fireball and sleet storm. But there are some good medium range spells too like web, black tentacles and solid fog.

[Urpriest]

In terms of Half-Fiends, Half-Goristro is pretty sexy.

If it's possible, Dry Lich without Walker in the Waste is fairly nice.

[nobodez]

Pixie is pretty awesome. Greater invisibility, SR, DR/cold iron, free Dodge, net +20 to ability scores, non-humanoid, spell-like abilities, and flight. Would make a great CoDzilla or Wizard.

Time Dragons are rather sexy, and with the drop of their LA to +1 (at least for a wyrmling) you're looking at a net of LA 4 as a wyrmling.

[Blackhawk748]

Dragons in general are awesome (even though im a firm believer in the fact that most dont deserve their LA, or any in some cases)

Oooh i could be a troll, that would be fun.

[gurgleflep]

I've always liked the half-illithid template, didn't like how high the LA was though - if we could ignore 4LA, it'd drop down to a +1 and I'd have a blast with it!

[NeoPhoenix0]

hmm, I always wanted to play a half-fiend half-celestial. By making a half-fiend lesser assimar, I could have many of the abilities of those templates without the massive LA and overlapping bonuses. Can't think of anything off the top of my head and i'm posting from work <_<, >_>, ^_^ no one here to stop me posting.

[Mithril Leaf]

I personally would enjoy a (4 arm) Obah-Blessed non-psionic Thri-Kreen gives you 8 arms, which would be fantastic on a soulbow. Also, if you were willing to be absolutely ridiculous, a succubus variant Half-Fiend on a lesser Primordeal Unseelie-Fey Magic Blooded Half-Giant, It gets +16 Charisma without additional level adjustment.

[ksbsnowowl]

Shadow Creature. Always Shadow Creature. +2 LA.

[Manly Man]

In terms of Half-Fiends, Half-Goristro is pretty sexy.

I love specific half-fiends. I love how they try to tell you on the site where they make the suggestion for them that you can't really do folks who are the children of demon lords, because they couldn't be arsed into making children when they're so busy trying to kill each other, but...

Graz'zt. Just Graz'zt.

Graz'zt, Pazuzu, and Malcanthet, all of them some of the most promiscuous beings in the multiverse, and the folks at Wizards try to tell you they wouldn't have any chiddlers running around. Yeah, I know it's supposed to be for the sake of not having ridiculously overpowered characters, but seriously? They don't even know their own lore. Personally, I'd love to have a son or daughter of Pale Night to play as.

[Urpriest]

I love specific half-fiends. I love how they try to tell you on the site where they make the suggestion for them that you can't really do folks who are the children of demon lords, because they couldn't be arsed into making children when they're so busy trying to kill each other, but...

Graz'zt. Just Graz'zt.

Graz'zt, Pazuzu, and Malcanthet, all of them some of the most promiscuous beings in the multiverse, and the folks at Wizards try to tell you they wouldn't have any chiddlers running around. Yeah, I know it's supposed to be for the sake of not having ridiculously overpowered characters, but seriously? They don't even know their own lore. Personally, I'd love to have a son or daughter of Pale Night to play as.

They've got different rules for children of the lords, though. They're Cambions, typically.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Wasn't Rule-of-three in the expedition to the demon web pits Graz'zt's child?

[Silva Stormrage]

In terms of Half-Fiends, Half-Goristro is pretty sexy.

If it's possible, Dry Lich without Walker in the Waste is fairly nice.

Isn't Dry Lich +5 LVL Adjustment? Regular lich might actually be worth it though, the phylactery and DR is actually pretty valuable.

Combining some of the good low level ones would be interesting, a feral draconic cleric or druid could be a pretty interesting character to play. (Ability Score modifiers of +6 Str,-2 Dex, +6 Con,-4 Int, +4 Wis, +6 Cha. Plus a ton of other abilities)

[Manly Man]

They've got different rules for children of the lords, though. They're Cambions, typically.

Ugh, the rules for Cambions are atrociously written. Graz'zt's children are all listed just as half-fiends in their stat blocks even, not Cambions, so you'd think that they would have come up with something for them.

Oh well. Perhaps I'll make something myself; to the homebrew table!

As for other templates, there are a lot of half-dragons that I'd like to try out. Adamantine, Mithral, Radiant, or if I wanted to really get crazy, a half-prismatic or half-force dragon would be awesome.

[Hyena]

Watcher from Bastards and Bloodlines. Why? Because it's awesome, that's why.

[Azoth]

Phrenic Unseelie Fey half fey magic blooded lesser aasimar with Magic in the blood feat. Enjoy around 30 SLA's useable between at will and 3/day each. Doesn't matter what classes you are...you have something for everything.

Though if you wanted to eat 1LA Radiant Creature instead of Half Fey is better in terms of SLA power.

[gurgleflep]

Watcher from Bastards and Bloodlines. Why? Because it's awesome, that's why.

That's the one where a dwarven soul is placed inside a soulless gargoyle's body, right? Those things are pretty danged awesome.

[gorfnab]

Shadow Creature. Always Shadow Creature. +2 LA.
+Dark +Shadow Walker = LA 4, and one extremely sneaky character

[Averis Vol]

Given the chance to knock it down to +1 LA I would love to play a shade. they get so many boss abilities it isn't even funny.

[WhamBamSam]

Dragons in general are awesome (even though im a firm believer in the fact that most dont deserve their LA, or any in some cases)

Oooh i could be a troll, that would be fun.Yep. If you make the LA go away Dragons actually start to become pretty good.

My favorite example is the Blue Wyrmling, since it has the skills to qualify for Ur Priest and access to some dragony cheese.

Wyrm of War Blue Wyrmling 6/Ur Priest 4/Singer of Concordance 2/Sacred Fist 8 anyone? 18 BAB, 9th level spells. Knowledge Devotion on 7 attacks per round with pelvic thrusts from Improved Unarmed Strike, 9 attacks with Persisted Righteous Might making you medium sized for wing attacks, and 10 if you Age Curse yourself getting you (among other things) up to Large for a Tail Slap. You can actually make this work even with the LA at high levels, but without the LA it just flows so much better, and doesn't rely on Age Cursing for the 4th Unarmed iterative.

Rust Wyrmling is another 6/4 dragon that could also be fun. Maybe a Thicket of Blades/Robliar's Gambit/Karmic Strike/Combat Reflexes build, so that if enemy mundanes come at you you can break all of their toys. Wyrm of War Rust Wyrmling 6/Cloistered Cleric 1/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Whatever 2 does the job and gets you up to 5th level Cleric spells for that same Righteous Might/Age Curse combo along with other goodies.

Shadow Creature Mercury Wyrmling. LA is exactly +4. 300ft perfect fly speed.

Red and Gold Wyrmlings also become passable if they're reduced to just their Dragon HD, but they're mostly just beatsticks with a few extra tricks at that age.

Sticking with the dragony theme, the Dracolich template is great for melee/gish builds. Toss it on a Dragonwrought Kobold and enjoy the undead immunities, Paralyzing Gaze attack, and 1d6 Cold damage and save against paralysis on all of your physical attacks.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Shadow Creature is up there on the list, +2 LA for Fast Healing, Shadow Blend like this guy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadowMastiff.htm) has, and a bunch of other benefits.

A variant Half-Fiend (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630x&page=1) could work for just about any character. Pick Kelvezu for a sneaky character, Goristro for a strong character, or one of many others for a Cha- or Int-based caster.

The Tier System for Templates (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7044) should give you a pretty good idea of what would be good picks.

[ksbsnowowl]

Shadow Creature is up there on the list, +2 LA for Fast Healing, Shadow Blend like this guy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadowMastiff.htm) has, and a bunch of other benefits.


Don't forget that Shadow Creature gets better as you level. Every time you reach HD divisible by 4, you gain a new ability.

[Asteron]

Given the chance to knock it down to +1 LA I would love to play a shade. they get so many boss abilities it isn't even funny.

Shades are +4 so they would be free in this scenario...

[Mithril Leaf]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the typical great choice, the Sharn with 4 HD and +1 LA after the reduction casts as a sorcerer of level 7, and a favored soul of level 5.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Black Etherguant would go from ECL 20 to ECL 16 and cast as a 17th level wizard. Jackallord does thesame thing with 8 levels of cleric for 8 hd.

Kalareem, a personal favorite, becomes an excellent fighter/barbarian.

[Manly Man]

An idea I have that would be umpteen times easier now with a lich:

A gestalt Paladin//Bard (Lawful restriction obviously removed) who, after having been around for a few centuries, is running dry on song material- having him play heavy metal (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19523298/The_Disciple_of_Metal_PrC_Bard) makes the concept even cooler, and fits it better- and so he makes "evil plans" which, in all reality, are just complete mockeries designed to get the attention of heroes who come to stop him. An epic battle ensues, and he pretends to be defeated, his fake plan for world domination/destruction/deadification foiled. In all reality, he intended for this to happen, and now not only does he have awesome material, but he also helped a group of adventurers out in making them rich and famous, their stories told forever onward through his songs.

The levels as a Paladin were, honestly, to make sure that he could come up with ways to do all this that were ultimately harmless. Sure, the adventurers might get a little beaten up, but all-in-all, people will end up happier with the feeling that a "great evil" has been vanquished, and they will have a figure they can trust to come to their aid again (the adventurers). In the end, I guess it would be one big, as well as needlessly complicated, good deed. Sounds legit, as well as awesome.

[Gadora]

Pixie for endless flight, endless greater invisibility, SR, DR and some nice ability score bumps. Normally I go after pixie rogues. But heck without any LA be a caster with long range spells and rain death from an untouchable distance. Especially if this is solo. Some of the longest range spells are illusions (especially good if invisible), fireball and sleet storm. But there are some good medium range spells too like web, black tentacles and solid fog.

Hee! Reminds me of the gestalt pixie Malconvoker I ran that one time. 'twas a two player thing, just running through a randomly created dungeon, but there were so many instances "And suddenly, demons from nowhere!" that I still... Hee! :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, I think that pixie definitely belongs on this list.

To give my own contribution, I think that the Valkyrie, from ToB belongs here, too. Yes, they're heavy on the hit dice, but those are outsider hit dice, so good saves, good BAB, and great skills. They also start with a bundle of nice stat boosts, a high initiator level (that stacks with swordsage levels) and a good set of maneuvers.

[Karnith]

Being a Worm that Walks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/wormThatWalks.htm#creatingAWormThatWalks) with no LA would be pretty fun.

[ZamielVanWeber]

That thing has no listed LA for good reason. At low levels it eats encounters like candy. At high levels it is still a beast due to good AC, powerful SLA's,and spell resistance.

[jindra34]

Advocating SLYPH, yet again. It breaks the game with its full LA of +5 (due to racial sorcerer casting of HD+4 [HD INCLUDES CLASS LEVELS WotC]), reducing it to LA +1 just goes and makes it do it faster.

[Karnith]

That thing has no listed LA for good reason. At low levels it eats encounters like candy. At high levels it is still a beast due to good AC, powerful SLA's,and spell resistance.
It's LA +4. Check the Epic Level Handbook, p. 156. A level 23 Wizard with the Worm that Walks template is ECL 27.

The real problem is getting the ritual to take.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The SRD removed that. The SRD reflects 3.5 updates, does it not? It lists there being no LA for it, which makes sense. I actually played one (I was expert 2, +4 Worm that Walks) and I just went crazy without trying.

[Karnith]

The SRD removed that.
No, it omitted it, as it omitted a good deal of content from the ELH (and other books). The SRD reprints OGL content, and the d20srd website reprints OGL content, with the 3.5 updates and errata when applicable. The ECLs and LAs of ELH creatures were omitted from the OGL content, for some reason (check the official SRD release here (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35)). Any rules from the ELH not printed as OGL are still rules; they are simply not freely-accessible.

If you check the Epic Level Handbook errata (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a), you will notice that it does not touch the ECL/LA of the Worm that Walks, though it does so for many other creatures. Therefore the original ELH Worm that Walks ECL (and therefore, LA) stands.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Fair enough. I am still saying that is a terrible idea for just how game breaking that can be.

[asnys]

Half Fiend, Half Dragon, Half Elemental, hell most of the Half templates, their all decent but not for the LA you need to eat

The only template I've tried in actual play was a Half-Dragon (Gold) Human Paladin. It was a solo game - no dropped LA - and although it would certainly break down horribly at higher levels, at level 1 it was pretty awesome. My damage reduction and full plate from having the WBL of a 5th level character made me almost impossible to damage, and my ridiculous strength and natural attacks let me one-shot anything but an end boss, and I had a fire breath to take care of them. Good times. (Also, between my high Charisma and being, yaknow, a half-dragon, I had so overawed the local kobolds that I was halfway to converting them to lawful good when the game fizzled out.) Although you could probably do better from an optimization perspective, it would certainly be enormous fun without the hassle of LA.


Being a Worm that Walks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/wormThatWalks.htm#creatingAWormThatWalks) with no LA would be pretty fun.

Now I'm imagining a deceased wizard-1 who accidentally gets buried in the tomb intended for a wizard-20 who's been making plans in the event of his unfortunate demise... That could be really cool. :smallsmile:

[Blackhawk748]

An idea I have that would be umpteen times easier now with a lich:

A gestalt Paladin//Bard (Lawful restriction obviously removed) who, after having been around for a few centuries, is running dry on song material- having him play heavy metal (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19523298/The_Disciple_of_Metal_PrC_Bard) makes the concept even cooler, and fits it better- and so he makes "evil plans" which, in all reality, are just complete mockeries designed to get the attention of heroes who come to stop him. An epic battle ensues, and he pretends to be defeated, his fake plan for world domination/destruction/deadification foiled. In all reality, he intended for this to happen, and now not only does he have awesome material, but he also helped a group of adventurers out in making them rich and famous, their stories told forever onward through his songs.

The levels as a Paladin were, honestly, to make sure that he could come up with ways to do all this that were ultimately harmless. Sure, the adventurers might get a little beaten up, but all-in-all, people will end up happier with the feeling that a "great evil" has been vanquished, and they will have a figure they can trust to come to their aid again (the adventurers). In the end, I guess it would be one big, as well as needlessly complicated, good deed. Sounds legit, as well as awesome.

This....this is so much epic my head almost exploded.

[Werephilosopher]

Half-Farspawn with no LA would be absolutely...delicious. Dark Creepers would also be grand for my stealth builds.

[intothenight]

The Yuki-On-Na from Frostburn. Not the flashiest or most powerful monstrous class out there, but I've always wanted to play one of those. Especially after throwing in some warlock levels. Ah, some day...

[Rastapopolos]

+1 for Pixie and Shade. Although I wouldnt be able to resist slapping Vecna Blooded onto Pixie, Greater Invisibility + immune to all Divination? Good luck finding you. Infact I would probably put Vecna blooded on all my characters if it made sense fluffwise and i was allowed. Mechanically its awesome and I just love being immune to stuff.

[Darth Stabber]

I would most likely go with pixie, for all the reasons already listed. It's good for anything that doesn't care about strength, and strength is pretty dumpable in general. The fact that it gives you weapon finesse for free only furthers this. -2 str+8 Dex+6int+4wis+6cha, rogues, or any caster will work magnificently. Never mind the massive spell resistance that makes any, now level appropriate, casters unlikely to actually hit you.

Dark halfdragon would be fun.