I broke the RNG. Help? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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ManInOrange

2013-07-27, 09:41 AM

This is my fault, really, as the DM. I'm actually not that experienced, and I was just the guy willing to do it, y'know?
So the basic situation is between the AC of the two fighters within the party.

Character A:
AC = 10 +
10 armor bonus from +1 full plate and heavy armor optimizationROS +
5 shield bonus from +1 extreme shieldROS and shield specializationPHB2 +
1 from DEX +
4 from a penalty he takes from combat expertise until further notice =
30

Character B:
AC = 10 +
8 armor bonus from full plate +
1 from DEX =
19

So far, I can spot one possible mistake I've made: allowing shield specialization to be used for exotic shields. Maybe it wasn't a good idea, but it made sense at the time. Nonetheless, without it, there's still a difference of 10, and that's very difficult to work with. If you can spot more, feel free to point them out.

Also, I will acknowledge that character B has less of a magical boost and also that he hasn't taken the feats that character A has. Most of that goes into offense, and he DOES have a higher damage output. However, character A isn't so far behind in damage that he is overshadowed to nearly this extent; he still does probably 75% the damage of character B.

This raises a hard problem for me:
How can I either fix the situation OR, what kinds of monsters do I throw at the party so that everyone doesn't get slaughtered just so they can hit character A, and also so that character A doesn't stand nigh-invulnerable?

If there are too many monsters with touch attacks and racial prejudices, the players will eventually catch on.

Gemini476

2013-07-27, 09:51 AM

What kind of damage can the characters dish out? What do their builds look like?

Also, AoE spells and abilities, you can use Aid Another on attack checks, and a cat can still hit the Tarrasque on a natural 20 (but not necessarily on a threat, if it threatens on less than 20.)

Scow2

2013-07-27, 09:52 AM

Let CHaracter A enjoy his immunity to normal attacks - he's put SERIOUS investment in his AC, and he's earned it.

Have foes use maneuvers against him instead. Use touch attacks against him when possible, though he would probably get Shield Ward to bolster that. If you fight against large numbers of foes, Aid Anothers should be taken to help surmount his defense.

Flickerdart

2013-07-27, 09:53 AM

Character A has spent four feats and is taking a massive penalty to his offense in order to get that AC. Character B, meanwhile, has those four feats and 1000+ gp to invest in other things, plus probably a two-handed weapon, so unlike the other guy he gets to have relevant damage instead of turtling.

High AC doesn't break anything if it's all you can do.

ManInOrange

2013-07-27, 10:39 AM

Gemini:

"Build" is kind of a strong word for what they have. Both are level 8, straight fighter. They've only just begun looking into prestige classes.
Character A has a +14 to hit (minus 4 for combat expertise); character B has a +13. With that, character A uses a dwarven waraxe for 1d10 + 5, and character B uses a greatsword for 2d6 + 7. Character B typically uses power attack to varying degrees.
With this taken into consideration, damage output of character B should be almost twice that of character A... which is weird, because it always seems like he's barely ahead...

Scow:

Are maneuvers exclusively a Tome of Battle thing? For someone who's probably seen 5 pages of the book, do you have a good starting point?

Flickerdart:

Actually, because of character motivations and the balance of wealth in the game, character A is actually above character B in finances as well. Character B is NG and makes it very very plain, to the point that he makes sacrifices for others. That actually caused me to look to the BOED for a prestige class to recommend for him to try to reward him for taking on other people's burdens, because money appears not to be cutting it.

You are right in that he has a two-handed weapon though, and he DOES theoretically have twice the damage output of character A. Again, though, striking a balance in the enemies that I throw at them appears impossible without weird mechanics and/or racist villains. Character A is a dwarf, in case that didn't come out before.

RogueDM

2013-07-27, 10:43 AM

I always try to keep in mind my party's lowest save. My current parry, low op, is mostly skill-monkeys and a fighter, so I'm preparing to beat down on their will saves until they start taking Iron Will etc. Don't completely negate their strengths, of course, they worked hard for them and deserve to reap some benefit. However, when you really want to throw a nail-biter at them aim for the weak spots.

Scow2

2013-07-27, 10:49 AM

Gemini:
Scow:

Are maneuvers exclusively a Tome of Battle thing? For someone who's probably seen 5 pages of the book, do you have a good starting point?

By maneuvers, I was actually referring to the Pathfinder definition. I should have said "Alternate attacks" - Tripping, bullrushing, grappling, and disarming. Tripping was my primary idea, but if he's a dwarf... not happening :smalltongue:

I kinda wish Vow of Poverty was easier to "Hack" to provide benefits to people who don't go Wealthmongering, but aren't ENTIRELY ascetic either.

The Trickster

2013-07-27, 12:00 PM

Being fighters, they should also have low reflex saves. Throw a fireball at them every once in a while. Someone also mentioned touch attacks, which can also be effective.

CaladanMoonblad

2013-07-27, 12:22 PM

I am running a group of 9th to 13th level characters with variable AC as well. I don't change up my encounters to meet the heroes' variable AC... I expect them to position themselves according to their strengths. And they do. Maybe I have players who are already rational, but it is a skill that can be acquired.

For instance, the only straight up Fighter in the group is a dwarf rolling with an AC 32, the Human Paladin rolls with an AC 28, the Rogue rolls with an AC 26, the Ranger AC 24, the Barbarian AC 20. The two highest AC characters typically head to the front of the pack and serve as "Ice Breakers" while the others do the best they can with the footing. I still get to swarm the tanks as a GM, and they take damage with the occasional natural 20, but it is not overpowering... they are the heroes after all. If the rogue decided to jump to the front and take on 8 opponents with flanking attacks... I have no problem sending the legion of Sauhaugin or Orcs or Skum after that foolish Rogue.

Your job as a GM is to tell a good story. The job of the Players is to make the best decisions they can for their characters. If a death or two teaches them about the Combat section in the PHB, good on you. : )

alchmst1259

2013-07-27, 12:24 PM

I kinda wish Vow of Poverty was easier to "Hack" to provide benefits to people who don't go Wealthmongering, but aren't ENTIRELY ascetic either.

Some kind of "Charitable Soul" that contributes X% of their wealth to the poor/church/etc rather than ALL of it? Yeah, that'd be pretty nice.

Drachasor

2013-07-27, 12:33 PM

Guy gives money away to worthy causes and whatnot?

Give him a vision that lets him find a magical sword. This should improve automatically as he levels and "attunes" to it (fluffy RP stuff regarding the sword and being good and hugs).

Have a good wizard/cleric/celestial-being/whatever (not a multi-class, though it could be!), give him something to help in the good fight.

If anyone complains point out this is just to maintain game balance and they should shut it. Well, be more polite than that. That said, try to throw the other players some RP stuff too...but they can't get the same spiffy rewards of course.

ManInOrange

2013-07-27, 01:37 PM

Guy gives money away to worthy causes and whatnot?

Give him a vision that lets him find a magical sword. This should improve automatically as he levels and "attunes" to it (fluffy RP stuff regarding the sword and being good and hugs).

I've actually already put a plan into motion that will help with that. Their current quest involves frequent contact with this maelstrom of magical energy, and I've already had him randomly struck by lightning. I'm drafting a homebrew disciple-based prestige class closely modeled after the Disciple of Mephistopheles from BOVD, except it's going to be a Disciple of Thor, and it will be electrical energy based.
I figured he's already survived a lightning strike, and if he's GOOD, it seems reasonable that such a being would take an interest in him.
Anyway, his damage output wasn't concerning... it was how to fix the issue with the broken RNG as regards hitting them... but all of your guys' input is making me realize I've thrown in a startling shortage of casters... I really don't think it's going to be an issue given what I have at my disposal.

I just had to be reminded of the obvious, I guess....
Thanks!

Randomguy

2013-07-27, 01:49 PM

Just for the record: You realize that you can only get the bonus to AC from combat expertise when making a full attack, right? It's no good if you aren't engaging in melee.

CaladanMoonblad

2013-07-27, 01:55 PM

Just for the record: You realize that you can only get the bonus to AC from combat expertise when making a full attack, right? It's no good if you aren't engaging in melee.

From the SRD...

When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee....

Make a half-hearted swing. Not a big deal.

erikun

2013-07-27, 01:56 PM

As others have said, I don't see much relative imbalance between the two. Character A has spent 3,800+gp, four feats, and -4 to attacks for his AC bonus. Character B has spent 1,650gp for his. It isn't unreasonable that the one would have a much better AC than the other.

As for this particular situation, if Character B is spending such money on donations and benefitting the community, then perhaps it would be appropriate for some of the community to take notice? Besides good RP bonuses talking with people around town, such as discounts on "used" magic items if he's interested, why not have them offer to cast spells on the PC's behalf? After all, free healing is nice, and getting spells like Identify and Raise Dead for only the cost of the material component would certainly be helpful.

If you wanted a more direct support for the character, then consider having a few in-town casters who just happen to know Persistent Spell for some reason or another. I'm sure that a 24-hour Bless, Comprehend Languages, Expeditious Retreat, Barkskin, or anything else appropriate will help him out in combat. They cost the NPC very little, only a single spell slot, but would give Player B the sense that the community is really appreciating the charity he's been doing.

Don't try matching the AC with that of Character A, but if there is a friendly spellcaster in town, just have them offer to cast a spell of their choice on Character B before they go out adventuring for the day.

Just for the record: You realize that you can only get the bonus to AC from combat expertise when making a full attack, right? It's no good if you aren't engaging in melee.
Attack or full attack, actually. But yes, you need to me making some kind of attack roll (by RAW) to benefit from it.

Blackhawk748

2013-07-27, 01:56 PM

Guy gives money away to worthy causes and whatnot?

Give him a vision that lets him find a magical sword. This should improve automatically as he levels and "attunes" to it (fluffy RP stuff regarding the sword and being good and hugs).

This is a great idea, so give him a Greathammer (just a greataxe that does bludgeoning damage) thats a Legacy item. Now i know that most people hate Weapons of Legacy, i find that if you take away the extra cost (the Hp loss, Spells lost, etc.) and just have to do the Rituals and spend the gp cost those weapons are pretty awesome, you just need to make it yourself. And hey a Thor themed hammer is pretty easy to make.

bookguy

2013-07-27, 01:57 PM

Guy gives money away to worthy causes and whatnot?

Give him a vision that lets him find a magical sword. This should improve automatically as he levels and "attunes" to it (fluffy RP stuff regarding the sword and being good and hugs).

Have a good wizard/cleric/celestial-being/whatever (not a multi-class, though it could be!), give him something to help in the good fight.

If anyone complains point out this is just to maintain game balance and they should shut it. Well, be more polite than that. That said, try to throw the other players some RP stuff too...but they can't get the same spiffy rewards of course.

There's a whole book about that actually... Weapons of Legacy.

Drachasor

2013-07-27, 02:01 PM

There's a whole book about that actually... Weapons of Legacy.

IIRC, the system is horrible.

Blackhawk748

2013-07-27, 02:06 PM

Well as someone who has built several Legacy items, the system isnt beyond saving, as i said above if you remove the extra cost of lost HP, lost skill points, etc etc, and just make them do a small quest and pay the gp cost its actually pretty good.

Lightlawbliss

2013-07-27, 02:24 PM

we're talking, what, lvl 9?

an AC of 30 at lvl 9 is not really all that high. especially with multiple feats spent to get it.

Personally, I would add up how much he has given. If the guy has donated enough cash, I wouldn't have any prob having some sort of divine spell just happen to suddenly be permanently on him. Maybe a shield of faith effect or something similar. Something that that much money could have bought an item of but that because he is donating it instead the deity gives him a small boost as thanks. And obviously The people he donates to will like him better, That just comes with people getting free stuff.

Menzath

2013-07-27, 02:53 PM

You know what in a game that my group just finished up, our up front crusader had about the same feats/gear. His AC after armor/shield/feats and what not got to be about 42-45 depending.
His BANE was a level 1 spell, ray of enfeeblement. His touch AC was garbage and even a base str of 22 taking out 1d6+5 destroyed him. He couldn't MOVE his armor alone at lessened str wasn't enough to even drag his gear.
Whereas the guy with lower AC isn't going to have the issue where a lvl 1 spell destroys his combat ability.

SowZ

2013-07-27, 04:06 PM

You made no mistakes. 30 AC is not OP. Most mooks can only hit him on a natural 20 or if three or four of them surround him. That's fine. Occasionally, let four mooks surround Mr. Invincible and pummel on him and he will smile as only a couple hits get through.

But make sure you throw in abilities that target save DCs and Touch AC attacks.

JusticeZero

2013-07-27, 04:15 PM

By their builds, A has signaled that he is having fun when lots of enemies are beating at him ineffectively.
Let him have his fun. Give B something else to do that makes him have fun and feel awesome. Toss us some info about his build and see if someone can't give him an equally ridiculous thing to do while A stands blocking the door, surrounded by orcs, cackling hysterically

Blackhawk748

2013-07-27, 04:19 PM

Toss us some info about his build and see if someone can't give him an equally ridiculous thing to do while A stands blocking the door, surrounded by orcs, cackling hysterically

I was reminded of a buddy that plays Dwarven Defenders a lot, this is what he does while the rest of us basically grenade bomb the room in front of him lol

Razanir

2013-07-27, 04:31 PM

I kinda wish Vow of Poverty was easier to "Hack" to provide benefits to people who don't go Wealthmongering, but aren't ENTIRELY ascetic either.

http://cdn.meme.li/instances/600x/40097462.jpg

At a minimum, import the PF rules. Let him have one item of significant value. But better yet, just use Rule 0 to say he can have material possessions so long as he doesn't obsess over them. There actually are ascetics living normal lives. To the best I understand it, they focus more on buying mostly what they need instead of living in a more strict poverty.

ericgrau

2013-07-27, 08:51 PM

Character B's damage isn't much higher? Let character rebuild so that he is roughly equal to character A overall (not necessarily in damage or defense alone). Or as a last resort nerf character A. Normally I'd prefer nerfs to be declared ahead of time. Players feel better inside if you boost the weaker rather than hurt the stronger. But ya you should have disallowed whatever isn't typical for your gaming group ahead of time, and do whatever you need to do to equalize things now.

As pointed out combat expertise does have a drawback and while it isn't worthless it isn't incredible either. About the same as many other feats. Effectively I only see an 8ish point spread. Which is a lot but it isn't 11.

A few foes that target saves and touch AC are fine, just not many.

After foes realize that they can't hit character A it's ok for them to focus on character B. Then character B runs, character A is forced to fight alone and/or try to protect character B and the fight gets harder. It's a team game after all. And whatever level of danger that puts 1 PC at risk is fine to make the whole group feel danger, just as long as he feels that he is contributing to the fight as much as character A is. The problem isn't only that he's dying fast, it is that he isn't doing that much more damage per round before dying fast. So his damage per fight is way too low compared to the other player. Try to make things even overall through boosting player B, and don't make encounters tailored to killing player A just because he went defensive.

Crasical

2013-07-27, 09:23 PM

IIRC, the system is horrible.

Weapons of legacy: They don't all suck (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19860770/Weapons_of_Legacy:_They_dont_(all)_suck)

Weapons of Legacy for dummies (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=485.0)

Weapons of legacy ability list (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19862762/Weapons_of_Legacy_Ability_List_(who_knew_there_wer e_so_many))

And some relevant quotes for good measure:

Why It's Worth It

In short, because it saves you a LOT of money. The sample weapon below costs only about 52,000g and 3,300 XP (using the fairly standard 1 XP = 5 GP conversion, ~ 70,000g). However, getting seperate items that do all of its abilities would cost in the range of 275,000g, AND provides several unique benefits (see Cunning and the super-perma-mind-blank).

With 200,000 gold, you can easily make up for the drawbacks. For a simple example, grab yourself just grab yourself 2 pearls of power, 9th level, and take the other 18,000g and throw yourself a sexy party. 2 extra 9th level spells easily make up for losing 1 spell each of level 1-8th (especially since the pearls are more flexible), and the sexy party will make you not care about the -1 to attack rolls and 12 lost hit points. Of course, there are probably better things to do with the 200,000 gold that will overshadow that, but it's just an example to show how you can clearly come out ahead. 200,000g is more than a quarter of the WBL of a 20th level character. That's a big, big chunk of extra cash, and cash = power.

The Hand of CoDzilla
Nonlegacy: +1 Darkwood Gauntlet. (Note that you don't actually need to be proficient in the Gauntlet to use the Hand of Codzilla; you just take penalties in using it as a weapon).
5: Extend 3/day, 3rd or less
6: Silent 3/day, 3rd or less
7: Still Spell 3/day, 3rd or less
8: Sculpt Spell 3/day, 3rd or less
9: Rapid Spell 3/day, 3rd or less
10: Widen Spell 3/day, 3rd or less

11: -
12: -
13: Contingency 1/day at 13th CL. Note that you can save cash on the focus.
14: Cunning (note the phrasing: “You are never flat-footed,” as compared to retaining your Dex bonus while flat-footed. For example, you can cast Swift Action spells before you act in a combat. This is VERY good).
15: Still 3/day, 6th or less
16: Sculpt 3/day, 6th or less

17: -
18: Permanent Mind Blank. Note that this is a supernatural ability, so AE dispel effects will not take it down. Nothing short of a targeted dispel or a Mordenkainen’s Disjunction will break through this.
19: -
20: Acquire +5 worth of special abilities, chosen by the wielder.

Sylthia

2013-07-27, 09:40 PM