omnitricks
2013-07-27, 02:09 PM
I'm going to need some confirmation/advice/assistance for a Vivisectionist-Beastmorph Alchemist (cliche I know but I have my reasons for the combination below) in a friend's game. I was supposed to play him today but some people took too long with chargen so I've got another week to fine tune for the next session. Frankly I think it is a good thing because I've never played anything other than rogue (which I initially made for this game with John Woo type stunts until I told myself "not again...") since I started years back in 3.5 except for very minimal attempts at cavalier and bard.
Starting at level 9 and after rolling 3d6 6 times, adding racial bonuses and the increase from level 4 and 8, his stats would be:
STR: 16
DEX: 14
CON: 14
INT: 20 (+2 half orc, +2 from level 4 and 8)
WIS: 12
CHA: 10
We are allowed to reroll over and over again until we get what we want but I guess this is as good as any. Or we can 22 point but with everything starting out at 8 (totally weird and I guess worse)
And then from the half orc racial traits, its all the same except I got skilled (substituting darkvision although maybe I'll take darkvision back because it might be useful in some situations) and Shaman's Apprentice (substituting Intimidating)
The skills (9 ranks x 9 levels) went to
acrobatics (to avoid AoO when moving into position)
craft alchemy (actually a new favorite after testing it out for a few games with a combat useless rogue. And it was extremely effective!)
disable device (this is because no one in the party actually can but it can be changed out if needed)
fly (reason below)
knowledge arcana
knowledge nature (which is also heal thanks to vivisectionist)
perception
spellcraft (to identify squishy victims)
survival (not too sure about this one but the general consensus I've seen is that it helps with harvesting natural poisons)
use magical device (because I loved using it as a rogue)
For feats, well here is half the idea...
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Grapple
Strangler (use my sneak attack while grappling? Sweetttttt)
Level 7 Feat? Empty (here is where my problem is, and my dilemma for not using humans because that would be one more feat I don't know how to use)
Greater Grapple (Because if I am not mistaken, for two move actions I'll be able to move my enemy with me and use strangler on them at the same time in a round?)
Also not to forget Endurance from the half orc racial traits. I could easily switch to human (because its my fave race after halfling which is not suited for this being small and -2 str) if only I knew what feats to take at level 1 (as the extra one) and level 7 (we can use Leadership but I really have no reason to)
And discoveries? Here's the second half
Feral Mutagen (claws and teeth? I'm a monstar)
Infusion (because I'm taking touch injection and this works with it)
Wings (very important because I need to fly!)
Combined extracts (easier to leap into battle if I have to spend less time buffing up)
I actually wanted to use lingering spirit and fast healing since my GM likes to play hard mode, but the problem is the only discovery I can go without at this point is combined extracts and infusion (but I chose them for the reasons above) as I need the other two.
I also have 9600 gold to spend and since I won't need weapons (unarmed or natural works for me (unless I want to use the orc's power and get the largest axe ever! or cowering in a corner somewhere when my mutagen runs out) I guess I have more options to take things up another level.
Spells uhhhhhh...did I mention I've never played anything but rogue? I could use FC for humans to get more but its not that important since the only ones I think I need so far is stuff like enlarge person, bulls strength, shield, protection from arrows, etc. (with infusion+touch injection I could even use reduce person on my victims)
Now here's the fun part!
The way I want to play this alchemist is just grabbing one enemy at the start of the battle and then flying off with him as high as possible (with greater grapple gaining altitude and doing damage with strangler) This means one enemy less for the party to fight even if it lacks the me that is good only for this one thing (probably the spellcaster since they have less CMD?) If they survive 5 rounds going up (since wings work in 1 min increments and I still have to get down) I'll drop them so they can take fall damage as well.
So..... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5aZJBLAu1E)
At level 10, this would be even more better because beastmorph can get pounce, trip and grab. Used in order during a charge might make grappling easier I guess? At level 14 if I survive that long, I can get rake (useful if I decide to pin an opponent instead for sneak attacks) constrict (more damage the way up?) or poison (which by the looks of it is possible to reach the dc 20+ levels although I'm not too sure how effective it will actually be by that point) Even blindsense might be useful since alchemy tools/weapons can blind/make things hard to see. Burrowing seems like another nice option if I want to take an enemy down and let them suffocate there (since the srd says the tunnels fill up behind)
However, considering that tentacle also has grab (something I just noticed a while back which might actually be considered the most important skill for this since grappling at -20 means not getting the grappled condition) it might make it possible to save the archetype if I want to play using poison immunity to my advantage or get another archetype altogether. And if I use it as a primary attack I can still use my claws and teeth as -5 naturals? Still the animal abilities like pounce and rake are pretty useful.
Another thing to note is that the other discoveries I'll go for definitely are mutagens (to increase the physical attributes) and maybe the crippling strike rogue talent since it deals strength damage from sneak attacks (that would help with grappling)
As for feats, the ones I currently think I'll have to use in the future are Body Shield (yay cover and quicker for my victim to uhhh...go splat?) and Rapid Grappler (although I think that I wouldn't need that extra standard action? Of course, I haven't tried this build yet to make a proper evaluation) Worst case scenario if I really don't know what feats to get is Extra discoveries...
So there you have it. Any help/advice/comments on what I need or don't need would be really appreciated. This is even more for spells (because as I said, rogue player which has no idea how to play/use them) and feats. Also maybe ways to make myself better at grappling or ways to increase CMB? (I only know size and strength...)
Note: I've missed out playing with these guys for over a month or two and I've missed out on a lot of sessions (my old cavalier also went byebye to some other dimensions for plot reasons) For some reason, everyone made new characters for today and as it turn out, half of us can take to the air and fight! Also out of the whole party, this alchemist and the fighter are the most likely to melee (our cavalier is going to rely on ride by flights so he doesn't count) Maybe useful information for people who can think of ways that bit will effect me?
Also forgot to mention, all pathfinder books are fair game according to the GM.
Starting at level 9 and after rolling 3d6 6 times, adding racial bonuses and the increase from level 4 and 8, his stats would be:
STR: 16
DEX: 14
CON: 14
INT: 20 (+2 half orc, +2 from level 4 and 8)
WIS: 12
CHA: 10
We are allowed to reroll over and over again until we get what we want but I guess this is as good as any. Or we can 22 point but with everything starting out at 8 (totally weird and I guess worse)
And then from the half orc racial traits, its all the same except I got skilled (substituting darkvision although maybe I'll take darkvision back because it might be useful in some situations) and Shaman's Apprentice (substituting Intimidating)
The skills (9 ranks x 9 levels) went to
acrobatics (to avoid AoO when moving into position)
craft alchemy (actually a new favorite after testing it out for a few games with a combat useless rogue. And it was extremely effective!)
disable device (this is because no one in the party actually can but it can be changed out if needed)
fly (reason below)
knowledge arcana
knowledge nature (which is also heal thanks to vivisectionist)
perception
spellcraft (to identify squishy victims)
survival (not too sure about this one but the general consensus I've seen is that it helps with harvesting natural poisons)
use magical device (because I loved using it as a rogue)
For feats, well here is half the idea...
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Grapple
Strangler (use my sneak attack while grappling? Sweetttttt)
Level 7 Feat? Empty (here is where my problem is, and my dilemma for not using humans because that would be one more feat I don't know how to use)
Greater Grapple (Because if I am not mistaken, for two move actions I'll be able to move my enemy with me and use strangler on them at the same time in a round?)
Also not to forget Endurance from the half orc racial traits. I could easily switch to human (because its my fave race after halfling which is not suited for this being small and -2 str) if only I knew what feats to take at level 1 (as the extra one) and level 7 (we can use Leadership but I really have no reason to)
And discoveries? Here's the second half
Feral Mutagen (claws and teeth? I'm a monstar)
Infusion (because I'm taking touch injection and this works with it)
Wings (very important because I need to fly!)
Combined extracts (easier to leap into battle if I have to spend less time buffing up)
I actually wanted to use lingering spirit and fast healing since my GM likes to play hard mode, but the problem is the only discovery I can go without at this point is combined extracts and infusion (but I chose them for the reasons above) as I need the other two.
I also have 9600 gold to spend and since I won't need weapons (unarmed or natural works for me (unless I want to use the orc's power and get the largest axe ever! or cowering in a corner somewhere when my mutagen runs out) I guess I have more options to take things up another level.
Spells uhhhhhh...did I mention I've never played anything but rogue? I could use FC for humans to get more but its not that important since the only ones I think I need so far is stuff like enlarge person, bulls strength, shield, protection from arrows, etc. (with infusion+touch injection I could even use reduce person on my victims)
Now here's the fun part!
The way I want to play this alchemist is just grabbing one enemy at the start of the battle and then flying off with him as high as possible (with greater grapple gaining altitude and doing damage with strangler) This means one enemy less for the party to fight even if it lacks the me that is good only for this one thing (probably the spellcaster since they have less CMD?) If they survive 5 rounds going up (since wings work in 1 min increments and I still have to get down) I'll drop them so they can take fall damage as well.
So..... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5aZJBLAu1E)
At level 10, this would be even more better because beastmorph can get pounce, trip and grab. Used in order during a charge might make grappling easier I guess? At level 14 if I survive that long, I can get rake (useful if I decide to pin an opponent instead for sneak attacks) constrict (more damage the way up?) or poison (which by the looks of it is possible to reach the dc 20+ levels although I'm not too sure how effective it will actually be by that point) Even blindsense might be useful since alchemy tools/weapons can blind/make things hard to see. Burrowing seems like another nice option if I want to take an enemy down and let them suffocate there (since the srd says the tunnels fill up behind)
However, considering that tentacle also has grab (something I just noticed a while back which might actually be considered the most important skill for this since grappling at -20 means not getting the grappled condition) it might make it possible to save the archetype if I want to play using poison immunity to my advantage or get another archetype altogether. And if I use it as a primary attack I can still use my claws and teeth as -5 naturals? Still the animal abilities like pounce and rake are pretty useful.
Another thing to note is that the other discoveries I'll go for definitely are mutagens (to increase the physical attributes) and maybe the crippling strike rogue talent since it deals strength damage from sneak attacks (that would help with grappling)
As for feats, the ones I currently think I'll have to use in the future are Body Shield (yay cover and quicker for my victim to uhhh...go splat?) and Rapid Grappler (although I think that I wouldn't need that extra standard action? Of course, I haven't tried this build yet to make a proper evaluation) Worst case scenario if I really don't know what feats to get is Extra discoveries...
So there you have it. Any help/advice/comments on what I need or don't need would be really appreciated. This is even more for spells (because as I said, rogue player which has no idea how to play/use them) and feats. Also maybe ways to make myself better at grappling or ways to increase CMB? (I only know size and strength...)
Note: I've missed out playing with these guys for over a month or two and I've missed out on a lot of sessions (my old cavalier also went byebye to some other dimensions for plot reasons) For some reason, everyone made new characters for today and as it turn out, half of us can take to the air and fight! Also out of the whole party, this alchemist and the fighter are the most likely to melee (our cavalier is going to rely on ride by flights so he doesn't count) Maybe useful information for people who can think of ways that bit will effect me?
Also forgot to mention, all pathfinder books are fair game according to the GM.