Durkula has 9th-level spells??

[syskill]

Am I the last to notice that Durkula appears to have cast Summon Monster IX? The devil that is presently nuzzling Elan to death is clearly a Barbed Demon, which is on that spell's summoning list.

[King of Nowhere]

No, he used a planar ally a few turns ago.

[syskill]

Alrighty then.

[RMS Oceanic]

The living Durkon had Planar Ally (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html) prepared. Durkula just used that to summon the devil.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He used Summon Planar Ally, a 76th level spell.

GW

[Sunken Valley]

He used Summon Planar Ally, a 7th level spell.

GW

Nope, Level 6 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAlly.htm)

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, those two fiends would be long gone by now if it were a mere summoning spell. (The duration on those is measured in rounds per level.)

[ClockShock]

Yeah, those two fiends would be long gone by now if it were a mere summoning spell. (The duration on those is measured in rounds per level.)

So, wait, a lower level spell is better? What's the catch?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So, wait, a lower level spell is better? What's the catch?

The summon monster forces them into your service, they don't get a choice. The ally spells require payment.

GW

[Steward]

Planar Ally also takes XP and money and only lets you call one monster, while the Summon Monster spells are free and you can get, like, five monsters (max, from a lower list of course).

[RMS Oceanic]

So, wait, a lower level spell is better? What's the catch?

Summon Monster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterI.htm) is, naturally, a Summoning Spell, where you summon/create a being to fight unconditionally for you, but it lasts a lot less.

Planar Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm) (Z's spell) and Planar Ally (Durkon) are Calling spells. They transport a specific being, and that's about all they do. Once that happens you have to either persuade or force the being you've called to do your bidding. Failure means they can escape or even attack you. That's why you can get more bang for your buck if you know what you're doing.

[The Giant]

A casting time of 10 minutes, plus time spent bartering, plus time spent preparing the room also makes Planar Ally/Binding not viable during combat.

That being said, I don't think you're going to find many people who would argue that the Planar Ally/Binding line of spells is totally balanced and entirely reasonable at their level. Half the ways to break the game start with, "Cast Greater Planar Ally to..."

[ClockShock]

Well, those are indeed plenty of catches and explanations. :smallsmile:

[Arcanist]

That being said, I don't think you're going to find many people who would argue that the Planar Ally/Binding line of spells is totally balanced and entirely reasonable at their level. Half the ways to break the game start with, "Cast Greater Planar Ally to..."

I'm sure that there was supposed to be some blue text somewhere in there :smallconfused:

[Goosefeather]

I'm sure that there was supposed to be some blue text somewhere in there :smallconfused:

Why, exactly?

[TaiLiu]

I'm sure that there was supposed to be some blue text somewhere in there :smallconfused:
No, the spell's pretty powerful.

[CRtwenty]

I'm sure that there was supposed to be some blue text somewhere in there :smallconfused:

If you know what you're doing Planar Ally is pretty damn powerful.

[Gift Jeraff]

Why, exactly?

Because everything looks better in blue!

[Arcanist]

Why, exactly?


That being said, I don't think you're going to find many people who would argue that the Planar Ally/Binding line of spells is totally balanced and entirely reasonable at their level. Half the ways to break the game start with, "Cast Greater Planar Ally to..."

Emphasis. (cont. below)


No, the spell's pretty powerful.


If you know what you're doing Planar Ally is pretty damn powerful.

Sure the spell is incredibly powerful if you know what you're doing, but that is just it you have to KNOW what you're doing and the boundaries of knowing what you're doing and not can be completely broken if you just read the Monster Manual. The spell is ridiculously powerful and like The Giant said, most methods of breaking the game start with "Cast Greater Planar Ally (or Binding) to...": Call an Efreeti/Solar/Pit Fiend/Zodar/Other_Wish_Granting_Outsider.

I do agree in a way that the spell is balanced, but the problem isn't with the spell, it's what you can do with it which makes it unbalanced (kind of). As has been said before; "The 3.5 system encourages system mastery."

EDIT: I suppose this can be summed up as saying that the Planar Binding and Ally series of spells is only as powerful as the person behind it.

[Skorj]

A casting time of 10 minutes, plus time spent bartering, plus time spent preparing the room also makes Planar Ally/Binding not viable during combat.

That being said, I don't think you're going to find many people who would argue that the Planar Ally/Binding line of spells is totally balanced and entirely reasonable at their level. Half the ways to break the game start with, "Cast Greater Planar Ally to..."

You know, I never saw the problem with these spells, though like most things in D&D it takes DM judgment. Even by RAW, they don't compel the summoned creature to agree to the task, and they allow the creature to refuse (if overly hazardous) or waive payment (if the task strongly serves the creature's ethos). As long as creatures consider "breaking the game" (or excessive chain-gating regardless) a suicidal act, you don't really even need rule 0.

In terms of non-theoretical-char-op play, the spells seem designed to let you exceed the power normal for your level if you're serving the agenda of the plane you call. As the DM has broad discretion as to that agenda, using a planar ally as anything more than "a better summon with a cost" can be limited to where it serves your intended narrative without fuss, IMO.

I've always particularly liked the plot device of an item that can summon a planar ally far above normal level as part of a quest objective. The party must get the item to the goal, possibly with some set of side-quests or under some restriction (to satisfy the summoned creature), to complete the quest, with the vastly overpowered ally doing whatever as a colorful quest epilog. The party can't cheat much with the overpowered item, as the summoned ally won't be amused, and you can justify quite colorful goals for the players if the item summons a specific creature who's a bit loopy.

[The Giant]

I do agree in a way that the spell is balanced, but the problem isn't with the spell, it's what you can do with it which makes it unbalanced (kind of). As has been said before; "The 3.5 system encourages system mastery."

EDIT: I suppose this can be summed up as saying that the Planar Binding and Ally series of spells is only as powerful as the person behind it.

Tenser's floating disc is only as powerful as the person behind it, too. So is every other spell. The difference is, no matter how skilled or devious the player, the floating disc can only do so much. It is very, very easy to break the game with Planar Ally, simply because there are so many different ways to do it. Planar Ally can do almost anything due to some poorly-conceived monster design, and the only way to stop it is for the DM—outside of the game—to impose rules on the players that involve not reading books those players probably paid good money for. That's not OK.

I'm not going to go further into debating this because I'm not especially invested in convincing anyone. Suffice to say, a lot of people will agree that you have to lean your head and squint and put a bunch of caveats and invoke Rule 0 about a half-dozen times before they're balanced with other spells of the same level. If you're willing to do that, then awesome, have fun. But that doesn't mean they were well-designed.

[Arcanist]

*snip*

True, but as long as we're in agreement that not all spells are created equally.


I'm not going to go further into debating this because I'm not especially invested in convincing anyone. Suffice to say, a lot of people will agree that you have to lean your head and squint and put a bunch of caveats and invoke Rule 0 about a half-dozen times before they're balanced with other spells of the same level. If you're willing to do that, then awesome, have fun. But that doesn't mean they were well-designed.

I believe that we're both in agreement here; I've no intention to debate, mostly since we're both in agreement that while most spells are abusable, some are more abusable than others. For the most part, my comment was just my own thoughts and opinions on the 3.5 system. :smallsmile:

[Douglas]

Half the ways to break the game start with, "Cast Greater Planar Ally to..."
I thought it was "Use a Candle of Invocation to cast Gate to..."

Of course, Gate is sort of a souped up and also combat-viable version of Greater Planar Ally, so it's really just a matter of degree. Oh, and the Candle being ridiculously underpriced.

[Reddish Mage]

A casting time of 10 minutes, plus time spent bartering, plus time spent preparing the room also makes Planar Ally/Binding not viable during combat.

That being said, I don't think you're going to find many people who would argue that the Planar Ally/Binding line of spells is totally balanced and entirely reasonable at their level. Half the ways to break the game start with, "Cast Greater Planar Ally to..."

I think the thing to take issue with is not how ridiculously broken Planar Ally is, but the implication that there aren't more ways to break the game.

[Draz74]

Wow, I don't think I've ever seen the Giant rant about the imbalances of 3.5e before ... except in his articles of homebrew, like his Diplomacy fix. And those didn't focus on spellcasting issues.

Kinda fun. :smallbiggrin:

(A couple of passing lines about Druidic Animal Companions and Wildshape during Leeky Windstaff scenes don't quite qualify as "ranting.")

[137beth]

I thought it was "Use a Candle of Invocation to cast Gate to..."

Of course, Gate is sort of a souped up and also combat-viable version of Greater Planar Ally, so it's really just a matter of degree. Oh, and the Candle being ridiculously underpriced.

Yea, I consider Gate part of the planar ally/binding series.

[Arcanist]

Wow, I don't think I've ever seen the Giant rant about the imbalances of 3.5e before ... except in his articles of homebrew, like his Diplomacy fix. And those didn't focus on spellcasting issues.

I'm curious if the Giant would be willing to do a revamp of the Calling rules :smallsmile: I've had discussions with Kelb on the subject (Simplified: I disagree that Calling requires a Diplomacy check to resolve it all and he believes that it does).

[Psyren]

I'm sure that there was supposed to be some blue text somewhere in there :smallconfused:

He's using litotes (understatement) here, not sarcasm. "I don't think you'll find many people who consider it balanced" = "Nobody in their right mind would consider it balanced."



I do agree in a way that the spell is balanced,

The Giant was saying it isn't balanced (at all.) Was this a typo?

[Defiant]

I think the thing to take issue with is not how ridiculously broken Planar Ally is, but the implication that there aren't more ways to break the game.

The fact that there are other ways to break the game does not mean that the subject matter being discussed reasonable. Should we then adjust all the non-breaking spells to be able to break the game and thus establish par? I'd also call into question this far-reaching "implication". The Giant pointing out a game-breaking spell does not imply that he believes there aren't any other or worse ways to break the game.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The Giant pointing out a game-breaking spell does not imply that he believes there aren't any other or worse ways to break the game.


Half the ways to break the game start with, "Cast Greater Planar Ally to..." (emphasis mine)

Agreed. Indeed, Rich's words literally imply there are as many other ways to break the game as there are through Planar Ally - but since that "Half" was probably not meant to be taken literally, he likely thinks there are many ways to break the game, and Planar Ally is just a fairly common one to do so.

Grey Wolf

[Person_Man]

Tenser's floating disc is only as powerful as the person behind it, too. So is every other spell. The difference is, no matter how skilled or devious the player, the floating disc can only do so much. It is very, very easy to break the game with Planar Ally, simply because there are so many different ways to do it. Planar Ally can do almost anything due to some poorly-conceived monster design, and the only way to stop it is for the DM—outside of the game—to impose rules on the players that involve not reading books those players probably paid good money for. That's not OK.

I'm not going to go further into debating this because I'm not especially invested in convincing anyone. Suffice to say, a lot of people will agree that you have to lean your head and squint and put a bunch of caveats and invoke Rule 0 about a half-dozen times before they're balanced with other spells of the same level. If you're willing to do that, then awesome, have fun. But that doesn't mean they were well-designed.

I completely agree.

Though I'm also curious about what a smart solution might look like, in the context of D&D Next, or a houseruled 3.X/PF game, or just to create a set of consistent magic rules for any story (such as a webcomic, novel, etc).

You could just eliminate Planar Ally and other similarly open ended abilities. But then you'd probably end up with some variation of 4E, and your character and DM/storytelling options become much more restricted.

Or you could make them MORE open ended, and make it so that the PC must bargain with their God (the DM) based on a variety of factors. But that may be just as difficult to balance, because it assumes that the DM has an extremely high level of rules mastery.

Or maybe there is some other variation I'm missing.

I'd be interested in hearing what people think. In particular, it'd be interesting to think about how different Durkon's life/story might be if the magic rules in the world he inhabits were different.

[Balok]

I had to develop several house rules. The only one I remember now (it's been awhile) is that gated or called allies wouldn't cast wish or similar magic. I came up with a reason, along the lines of "it's as difficult for them as it is for you but in different ways", but mechanically, it was impossible. This fact was noted in books available at the arcane libraries and schools when players became powerful enough for it to matter, so they didn't have to find out by casting the spell and getting a disappointing answer.

Ultimately if players use the services of powerful outsides to toss a monkey wrench into things, there are non-players of similar power with access to outsiders of their own who can do likewise. And when the repercussions of this begin to shake the world or even the multiverse, it draws unwelcome attention from gods and similar powers. There's always a being higher in the food chain than any mortal. :)

[Arcanist]

He's using litotes (understatement) here, not sarcasm. "I don't think you'll find many people who consider it balanced" = "Nobody in their right mind would consider it balanced."

I wasn't aware that such a term existed. If such was his intent, my statement changes to reflect this new found knowledge.

[The Giant]

I completely agree.

Though I'm also curious about what a smart solution might look like, in the context of D&D Next, or a houseruled 3.X/PF game, or just to create a set of consistent magic rules for any story (such as a webcomic, novel, etc).

Ways I have fixed patched it in the past (not counting just disallowing it):

Explicitly requiring a successful Diplomacy check, preferably the sort described in my Diplomacy Fix article, in order to get the creature to agree. This should involve some level of haggling, where the creature can demand more than the caster is willing to give initially. This is more of an issue for Planar Ally than Binding, which has a mechanic in place already.
For Planar Binding, eliminate the ability to use Magic Circle against Evil to "foolproof" the summoning diagram. When drawing the summoning diagram, require a Spellcraft check to get it right. When the creature tries to break out, it uses either its spell resistance or its own Spellcraft, whichever is higher, against the caster level check or the caster's Spellcraft check result, whichever is lower.
For Planar Ally, rather than waiving payment for "strongly ethos-aligned" actions, the ally should only even be available for such actions. Summoning a planar ally and asking it to do something that's not ethos-aligned should cause them to give you the finger and then leave. And even for ethos-aligned actions, payment should be required. If you want to compel a planar creature to do something it wouldn't normally do, be a wizard and try Planar Binding. This is the main loophole that usually breaks the game, because it lets players cherry-pick an outsider that will agree philosophically with what they're doing. It needs to go.
The planar creature should be controlled by the DM and get XP as a henchmen for any battles in which it participates (or even all of the XP, if it solos it). In other words, this isn't a spell that defeats your enemies, this is a spell that lets you hire help anywhere you are. That help still sucks down a share of the XP and treasure, though. In fact, I would explicitly say that if you ask one of these creatures to serve as your temp adventurer for the day, it demands a fair share of the treasure...and maybe first pick of magic items.
Maximum duration of a task should be 1 hour/level. No multiple day tasks, they break the daily resource allotment system. Or at the least, they should require additional XP cost or even the next higher level version of the spell to pull off.
Asking a planar creature to cast any spell higher level than the spell used to call it increases all costs by the amount that would normally be needed to scribe a scroll with that spell. So, you can bind an efreet and ask for a wish, but the cost will be the same as scribing a wish scroll—a lot of gold and XP. This only applies if you are requesting a specific spell, not if you're asking for a task and they choose to use their spell to make it easier on them.
If the DM is really having trouble rather than allowing any planar creature, they could create an explicit list of creatures that are allowed with each version of the spell. Anything the player finds in some obscure monster book that's not on the list is a no-go. Some monsters might be included with an explicit note like, "Cannot use its [such-and-such] spell while called."

Not a perfect fix, but I guarantee you it cuts down on abuse.