actual cr jump

[Lightlawbliss]

Hey playground

how much would having 150 identical mobs really jump the cr of a fight?

by RAW, we are talking a jump of 12 crs but that doesn't seem quite right to me

(I'm asking cause I just got forced into a PCs vs a large village situation and I had told them there was about 150 lizardfolk locals)

[Urpriest]

None. The table only goes up to 12 or so for a reason. Past there it's not a meaningful challenge, either the foes are individually too weak or the numbers are too overwhelming.

[Nettlekid]

As always, the difference between each CR increases with level. If you have a low level party, like say, level 5, then a mob of 50 lizardfolk is going to be a lot harder than 20. But the difference between 50 and 150 isn't all that much, really, because it's just a matter of swamped versus more swamped. But on the other hand, if you have a single level 15 Wizard, then 50, 150, or 1000 regular Lizardfolk don't really stand a chance, regardless of numbers.

I've often found CR to be kind of useless. I just eyeball the monsters, decide if it's strong enough or weak enough, and have at it. What are the levels/builds of the players in question?

[Lightlawbliss]

I know that rule isn't very good for cr period, I'm trying to figure out an actual cr for it to be.

lets face it, I'm not going to be able to stop them and they are going to try their best to kill the entire village. knowing how their best has gone, they will likely clean up the village and they WILL want xp for it. Seeing as how easy it is for them isn't really a solid measure of cr, I want to get the playgrounds opinion on a good cr for that.

Edit:

the party is lvl 8-9

wizard gone incantatrix
druid
cleric focusing on getting as many persists as posible
swordsage//soulknife

[Urpriest]

I know that rule isn't very good for cr period, I'm trying to figure out an actual cr for it to be.

lets face it, I'm not going to be able to stop them and they are going to try their best to kill the entire village. knowing how their best has gone, they will likely clean up the village and they WILL want xp for it. Seeing as how easy it is for them isn't really a solid measure of cr, I want to get the playgrounds opinion on a good cr for that.

Edit:

the party is lvl 8-9

wizard gone incantatrix
druid
cleric focusing on getting as many persists as posible
swordsage//soulknife

Just the question of XP has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, incidentally. XP is per-creature, not per-encounter. Encountering three lizardfolk 50 times gives the same XP as encountering 150 at once.

The question of Encounter Level (which you are mistakenly referring to as CR) applies to whether the encounter is appropriate or not. And you already know it's not appropriate. So...

By the way, ordinary CR 1 Lizardfolk should be giving no XP whatsoever to level 9 characters. The level 8 characters will be getting 200/4=50 XP per lizardfolk slain. Unless the Lizardfolk have a good plan, many of them will flee when the fight goes south, or when they hear the fight happening (since they won't all be fighting at once, villages are pretty spread out after all), so they won't get XP from all of them anyway.

[Lightlawbliss]

Just the question of XP has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, incidentally. XP is per-creature, not per-encounter. Encountering three lizardfolk 50 times gives the same XP as encountering 150 at once.

ok...

that's not how I remembered it.

[Urpriest]

ok...

that's not how I remembered it.

Check the Rewards section of the DMG. They lay it out pretty plainly. It's the difference between CR and EL, after all.

[Lightlawbliss]

Check the Rewards section of the DMG. They lay it out pretty plainly. It's the difference between CR and EL, after all.

yes, I looked it up before I posted that. If I didn't think you were right I would have been arguing for why I was right.

[Duboris]

Urpriest, in my year or 2 of being on these boards, has Always been right.

At this point the man could tell me I had gumdrop buttons and I'd experience panic attacks every time I watched the first Shrek movie.

On another note, a poor idea at this point would be to send that many at a time, because if the only thing you're doing is providing hack'n'slash for the PC's, you're missing out on them actually having to worry about dying, which is a shame.

You're best option would be to have lesser-tier grunts with weapons mixed into fights with *just enough* to-hit and crappy non-masterwork gear to still be relevant, all the while having the occasional "I don't die in one hit" guy. Throwing in a head-man would also be quite rewarding.

Never, for any reason, sacrifice the thrill of combat for swathes of blood.

[Nettlekid]

What I meant by CR being useless is that its only purpose is to give a ballpark guess of what level characters could feasibly take on the encounter. But that assumes that all parties of level X are the same strength. And that's so not true. If your level 8-9 party was made of a Fighter, Ranger, Monk, and Rogue, then a village of 100 Lizardfolk would be a substantial threat. With the party you've described, it's no threat at all. So, if 100 Lizardfolk are a threat for a ECL 8 party of martial classes, is 100 Lizardfolk a CR 8 encounter? But it's not CR 8 for the ECL 8 party of casters.

In short, as I said, CR is kind of useless.

[Fyermind]

This is, by the way, the IDEAL time to use the Mob template from Dungeon Master's Guide II. It is on page 59. It lets you model 48 basic lizard folk together as a single 30 HD CR 8 creature.

If I were running the encounter they would curbstomp the first 20 or so, face a mob that posed a credible threat, break it, and then either face another mob or have everyone else flee depending on how well the mob did.

[Lightlawbliss]

* looks where he put the village *
* recognizes the only way into/out of the village is a thin path on a cliff *
* recognizes PCs are in the village *
* recognizes that the PCs have distance combat *

Some might run, but I don't think any will get away

Will likely use the mob template, tx

[Menzath]

Okay it seems like everyone has laid out that the lizard folk (As per entry in MM) just are not going to be a challenge for your party, even at higher numbers.
And the issue of CR and EL of encounter mechanics has been cleared.

And now the tricky part. If you want it to be a challenge, Why not give 10-20 of said lizard folk class levels. Have 2 or three be druids/clerics to buff and the rest be rangers/fighters.
So now you have an actual community of lizards that could pose a challenge to the party.

And if you do not want to do the work of giving them class levels....
Use google-fu for Tuckers Kobolds.

[Lightlawbliss]

...
And now the tricky part. If you want it to be a challenge, Why not give 10-20 of said lizard folk class levels. Have 2 or three be druids/clerics to buff and the rest be rangers/fighters.
So now you have an actual community of lizards that could pose a challenge to the party.

Well, ofcourse. (150 isn't divisible by 48, what did you expect we to do with the rest, cannon fodder?)


And if you do not want to do the work of giving them class levels....
Use google-fu for Tuckers Kobolds.
Were you trying to direct me to an editorial or is my google-fu needing work?