What monsters are worth their LA/HD?

[CyberThread]

what monsters would you say are worth their LA/HD for a player

[erikun]

Black Ethergaunts have 16HD, +4LA, +20 INT and 17th level Wizard spellcasting. They also have a few other abilities, including (if I recall) immunity to arcane magic. It's kind of a tossup between being a really great ECL 20 spellcaster and delaying epic spellcasting for three levels, though.

[EDIT]
Half-Giants are pretty decent for their +1LA. Powerful Build is really good for a melee character.

[Blackhawk748]

I've always thought Half Ogres are worth LA +1, a lot of good stuff for melee types.

[CyberThread]

they got upgraded to +2LA in races of dest


Myself I like the dog race from sandstorm, even if slightly subpar , cheap way to get death attack.

[Blackhawk748]

Well even then their still pretty good.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Half-Giants are pretty decent for their +1LA. Powerful Build is really good for a melee character.

IF going for powerful build, I tend to prefer Goliaths, myself.


Myself I like the dog race from sandstorm, even if slightly subpar , cheap way to get death attack.

Marrulurks are indeed pretty good. Whisper gnomes are also up there for (probably) too good for their LA (none).

Arguably, a few planetouched could be worth it if you allow the Lesser Planetouched variant to be used RAW.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Lesser Aasimar is great. Mostly because those stats buffs make them fantastic clerics. Lesser Tieflings don't lose Con for an Int bonus, which is not entirely common, so they do fine as wizards.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Lesser Aasimar is great. Mostly because those stats buffs make them fantastic clerics. Lesser Tieflings don't lose Con for an Int bonus, which is not entirely common, so they do fine as wizards.

Disqualified the lesser versions don't have LA.

[Blackhawk748]

Now that i think about it Drow are pretty awesome, SR and some good stat bonuses? yes please

[ZamielVanWeber]

Disqualified the lesser versions don't have LA.

I was responding to Kuul. Regular planetouched get you some interesting benefits, but really you are mostly gunning off of the fact they are outsiders for cheap.

[Erik Vale]

Neraphim for Rogues the charge or use throwing weapons. Combine with persistant attacker and your set for SA.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I was responding to Kuul. Regular planetouched get you some interesting benefits, but really you are mostly gunning off of the fact they are outsiders for cheap.

Actually, I wasn't referring to the "vanilla" planetouched.

I was talking more about planetouched such as Gloamings (Und) or Tanarukk. Youknow, those planetouched with LA +2 (or more).

[Snowbluff]

Phrenic creatures are pretty awesome. SLAs, SR, mental bonuses. The only thing it is missing is fast healing. Magic in the Blood blends well.

OH! Speaking of fast healing, Feral! Who would dip Barbarian over being feral?

I'd say drow for the SLA stuff as well, but the Drow Legacy feat is just better.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Actually, I wasn't referring to the "vanilla" planetouched.

I was talking more about planetouched such as Gloamings (Und) or Tanarukk. Youknow, those planetouched with LA +2 (or more).

The +3 one, shyft, is useless normally but cool as a lesser.

White ether gaunts are almost as good as blacks (11+5 for 16 with 13th wizard casting that explicitly stacks with wizard levels). Red's follow the pattern if your level is lower yet, Beware the ever increasing LA though.

[Kuulvheysoon]

The +3 one, shyft, is useless normally but cool as a lesser.

My point exactly. My pardons for not being specific.

[Nettlekid]

I like non-psionic Thri-Kreen. 2 RHD and a +1 LA, but if you plan to build some kind of Multiweapon Fighter like a Rogue or Ranger then those arms are spectacular, as are those stat modifiers. I made a theoretical Frenzied Berserker build, and barely noticed the RHD since they would have just been for meeting BAB prereqs and stuff. Multiweapon Fighting is pretty awesome.

[Grayson01]

Yeah I will second this one, and dual weilding there Double Polarms is pretty BA!



I like non-psionic Thri-Kreen. 2 RHD and a +1 LA, but if you plan to build some kind of Multiweapon Fighter like a Rogue or Ranger then those arms are spectacular, as are those stat modifiers. I made a theoretical Frenzied Berserker build, and barely noticed the RHD since they would have just been for meeting BAB prereqs and stuff. Multiweapon Fighting is pretty awesome.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Then might I recommend the diopsid? They explicitly get the ability to dual wield two handed weapons at a mere +1.

Also the Dvati could easily be worth their +1, but they are too rules crazy to play (not to mention fragile).

[Blackhawk748]

I like non-psionic Thri-Kreen. 2 RHD and a +1 LA, but if you plan to build some kind of Multiweapon Fighter like a Rogue or Ranger then those arms are spectacular, as are those stat modifiers. I made a theoretical Frenzied Berserker build, and barely noticed the RHD since they would have just been for meeting BAB prereqs and stuff. Multiweapon Fighting is pretty awesome.

Where is this? i need it so i can make my General Grevious Dervish

[ksbsnowowl]

Where is this? i need it so i can make my General Grevious Dervish

Non-psi thrikreen are in Shining South.

[The_Snark]

I've found that succubi and incubi actually work pretty well at ECL 12: high-DC mind-affecting spells, teleportation, etherealness, change self, mind-reading, telepathy, flight... A very useful set of skills and abilities. 6 HD makes you a bit fragile, but DR 10 and 2-3 different ways to vanish helps you deal with that. Give them equipment, customized feats and PC abilities, and they fit into a level 12 party nicely.

Unfortunately, they don't scale terribly well. There isn't any way to build directly on their native abilities, and while their high Charisma is potentially useful it's tricky to keep up with regular PC classes.

[Runestar]

I am a fan of the ECL20 outsiders detailed in Savage Species (ghaele, astral deva, trumpet archon). Granted, their entries have quite a few errors, but they look like they can be very fun to play.

I also think centaur (6ECL) would make an excellent charger, and the maug (Fiend folio, ECL5) has potential as a great fighter if you don't mind having crap hp, or if your DM is crazy enough to let you tack on the incarnate template (end up with a ECL3 PC with crazy strength).

[TuggyNE]

Pixies are classically fairly decent for their LA, especially if you can play a class that a) takes full advantage of their constant invisibility and b) doesn't need HP or Str for routine operations. A rogue/wizard/arcane trickster or rogue/sorcerer/arcane trickster might be one of the more obvious ones, but there are others.

[Blackhawk748]

Centaurs make excellent Fighters, i know a guy who played one that went Cavalier eventually. Who needs a mount when you are one!

[Thrice Dead Cat]

The Primordial template on top of a Half-Giant gives quite a nice boost to Int and Cha for a measly +1 LA.

[Mithril Leaf]

The Primordial template on top of a Half-Giant gives quite a nice boost to Int and Cha for a measly +1 LA.

Of course that's an even better deal when they are available as lesser variant.

I would say that Wyrmling Amphibious Dragons are worth their LA in some builds, with certain favorable interpretations. For example, a Child of Eberron Rainbow Warsnake arguable gets all Cleric, Druid, and Warmage spells spontaneously. It's mainly due to the fact that it's a proper true dragon with only +2 LA. On the other hand, you could take Steel and have a true dragon with legitimate, solid abilities for reasonable HD and LA as well.

[tyckspoon]

(end up with a ECL3 PC with crazy strength).

Eeh. It's only +10 Strength, and you lose all the interesting stuff on the way. If you're willing to give up LAs/use Racial HD you can get pretty comparable characters with other templates and still have some actual racial features. (Or just one LA if you can get Half-Minotaur past your DM.)

[Mithril Leaf]

Eeh. It's only +10 Strength, and you lose all the interesting stuff on the way. If you're willing to give up LAs/use Racial HD you can get pretty comparable characters with other templates and still have some actual racial features. (Or just one LA if you can get Half-Minotaur past your DM.)

That reminds me, there's always the Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale, which has +3 RHD, no LA, and some solid bonuses to the things martials like.

[ShurikVch]

Ice Demon from Dragon Compendium.
LA +2. HD 10+, but it's an outsider HD - full BAB, full saves, load of skillpoints.
Fly 60, Ice blades, ice shards, Cold immunity, DR 10/lawful, SR 16...

[Chronos]

The sylph from MM2 can be pretty good, since she gets sorcerer casting at a higher level than her HD (HD +4), and it explicitly scales with racial hit dice, so you can advance it with those sweet outsider RHD instead of with sorcerer levels. They do have a +5 LA, so you're still one level behind an equal-ECL pure sorcerer, though.

[ericgrau]

It depends on optimization level. For high op I notice mineral warrior hasn't been mentioned yet. Though it is a template and not really a monster.

[jindra34]

The sylph from MM2 can be pretty good, since she gets sorcerer casting at a higher level than her HD (HD +4), and it explicitly scales with racial hit dice, so you can advance it with those sweet outsider RHD instead of with sorcerer levels. They do have a +5 LA, so you're still one level behind an equal-ECL pure sorcerer, though.

It actually never says RACIAL hit die. Which means because class levels count as HD, well you get silly casting almost anyway cut it. And no WotC didn't fix that.

[Snowbluff]

It actually never says RACIAL hit die. Which means because class levels count as HD, well you get silly casting almost anyway cut it. And no WotC didn't fix that.

Seconded. It's like a RAW Phaerimm.

[Spuddles]

Half-Minotaur is pretty much the best LA +1 template out there, if you're going to be making melee attacks. Hell, it's even good on zen archers and clerics.


Now that i think about it Drow are pretty awesome, SR and some good stat bonuses? yes please

SR is almost always better on monsters than PCs, because the standard action to lower you SR for buffs is not worth it. Drow are a poster child of worthless races. Even half-elf is more powerful than drow.


Phrenic creatures are pretty awesome. SLAs, SR, mental bonuses. The only thing it is missing is fast healing. Magic in the Blood blends well.

OH! Speaking of fast healing, Feral! Who would dip Barbarian over being feral?

I'd say drow for the SLA stuff as well, but the Drow Legacy feat is just better.

Feral doesn't work that way without RHD. Feral's actually a pretty mediocre template if you play by RAW.

[Snowbluff]

Feral doesn't work that way without RHD. Feral's actually a pretty mediocre template if you play by RAW.
Nearly tripped me up, buddy. At best, it's ambiguous. Even then, it's a good addition to some of the creatures here.

Side note, the fast healing and dark vision do not have the words "racial" or "monster" in them. So you get those regardless.

[CyberThread]

yeah Fearl is RHD, Phernic is just HD

[Malroth]

Half giant on a warlock or artificer for the worlds smallest giant trick. +1 LA to be permanently smaller than fine sized? yes please.

[CyberThread]

why would you bother being small.....

[Kuulvheysoon]

why would you bother being small.....

Higher AC and a better to-hit roll, for starters.

[CyberThread]

but we are talking about warlock and artificer ...not fighers and duskblades

[Spuddles]

but we are talking about warlock and artificer ...not fighers and duskblades

Surely you can imagine where being the size of a mosquito may be useful?

And Artificers are some of the best fighters in the game.

[Erik Vale]

Surely you can imagine where being the size of a mosquito may be useful?

And Artificers are some of the best fighters in the game.

"Pff, why would you pick a lock when you can fly through it?"

Yeah, I have that thread bookmarked.

[ZamielVanWeber]

but we are talking about warlock and artificer ...not fighers and duskblades

Warlock's Eldritch Blast scales damage based on level alone. To hit scales on, among other things, size. A fine character is a dramatically better blaster-lock then a large one, simple by virtue of accuracy.

[Snowbluff]

yeah Fearl is RHD, Phernic is just HD

Could you show me where in the text? The wording is virtually identically, with Racial appearing in neither.

[Karnith]

Could you show me where in the text? The wording is virtually identically, with Racial appearing in neither.
I believe that this is the passage in question:

A feral creature gains additional special attacks depending on its Hit Dice, as shown on the table below. It gains the special attacks indicated in the row corresponding to its monster Hit Dice, plus all those in previous rows. If the base creature possesses a duplicate ability, the feral creature uses whichever version of the ability is better.(Emphasis mine)

The Phrenic Creature template's Psi-Like Abilities, by contrast, only reference HD generally.

[Spuddles]

Monster HD became racial HD in the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion.

[Snowbluff]

The Phrenic Creature template's Psi-Like Abilities, by contrast, only reference HD generally.
Except that:


Special Qualities: A feral creature gains additional special qualities depending on its Hit Dice, as shown on the table below. If the base creature possesses a duplicate ability, the feral creature has whichever ability is better. Special Qualities are based on HD in general.

... but monster HD' not having a proper definition as far as I can tell, and the reference to the Feral Creatures having class levels fails to lend credence to it being RHD. It seems like a typo.

[Spuddles]

Except that:

Special Qualities are based on HD in general.

... but monster HD' not having a proper definition as far as I can tell, and the reference to the Feral Creatures having class levels fails to lend credence to it being RHD. It seems like a typo.

Typically, when interpreting rules, you use the most restrictive and inclusive reading, especially where there is no conflict. That one line says hit dice and the next clarifies monster hit dice, there is no internal conflict, merely further clarification of the rules.

Furthermore, monster hit dice was the term used in 3.0 for racial hit dice. You actually will find no reference to "racial hit dice" in Savage Species at all, but you will find 11 references to "monster hit dice" in the same document, and in multiple places differentiating between monster hit dice and hit dice derived of class levels.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Bladelings are 1HD 0 LA and are outsiders with favorable stat adjustments, multiple resistances, and natural armor.

[Snowbluff]

Typically, when interpreting rules, you use the most restrictive and inclusive reading, especially where there is no conflict. That one line says hit dice and the next clarifies monster hit dice, there is no internal conflict, merely further clarification of the rules.
So what you are saying is that you were wrong when you said that Feral is only good when you have RHD, which is only tied to the Special Attacks, not the juicy fast healing or darkvision.



Furthermore, monster hit dice was the term used in 3.0 for racial hit dice. You actually will find no reference to "racial hit dice" in Savage Species at all, but you will find 11 references to "monster hit dice" in the same document, and in multiple places differentiating between monster hit dice and hit dice derived of class levels.

All well and good. Thanks, but I like to have clear, well defined terms. Does anyone have a 3.0 DMG? Wait... I might...

[Spuddles]

So what you are saying is that you were wrong when you said that Feral is only good when you have RHD, which is only tied to the Special Attacks, not the juicy fast healing or darkvision.

You implied that Feral granted Pounce.


All well and good. Thanks, but I like to have clear, well defined terms. Does anyone have a 3.0 DMG? Wait... I might...

Let me know what you find. Not that it matters if your argument amounts to "it must be a typo" when the whole book suggests that monster hit dice are those hit dice that come from being a monster and they work differently than class hit dice....

[Eyclonus]

Purely from an optimization point, I think Kobolds, especially the desert Kobold variant, are worth more than their LA.

[Snowbluff]

You implied that Feral granted Pounce.

I was waaaay wrong about that. Feral pounce sucks. Still worth it, though.


Let me know what you find. Not that it matters if your argument amounts to "it must be a typo" when the whole book suggests that monster hit dice are those hit dice that come from being a monster and they work differently than class hit dice....

:smallfrown:

One of my DMs moved to Mexico and gave me a 3.0 PHB ("Wow, look at Haste.") and Monster Manual, FCI, ToB... and a DMG 3.5. Seriously, I have like 4 DMG 3.5 now. :smallannoyed:

[Kuulvheysoon]

Some Tauric creatures can be worth it.

[Snowbluff]

If anyone has a 3.0 DMG or something, could you clarify the Feral stuff?


Some Tauric creatures can be worth it.

May we have some examples?:smallsmile:

[ZamielVanWeber]

Monstrous spiders hand you tremorsense. Slap on say, human, and you end up with someone with 3 RHD (no listed LA at any rate) with +6 Dex, +2 Con, Darkvision, tremorsense, web, bonus skill points, and a bonus feat. The RHD are monstrous humanoid, so prepare to be a pretty decent ranged fighter (cleric archer would be good here).

[CyberThread]

Monstrous spiders hand you tremorsense. Slap on say, human, and you end up with someone with 3 RHD (no listed LA at any rate) with +6 Dex, +2 Con, Darkvision, tremorsense, web, bonus skill points, and a bonus feat. The RHD are monstrous humanoid, so prepare to be a pretty decent ranged fighter (cleric archer would be good here).


is that suppose to be a were-creature combination?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Yes, yes it was. Tauric is a pain to work with just because "pile of rules". If you really hunt hard cool stuff appears. Like the fact that monstrous scorpion gives slightly worse stats, but you trade off web for 3 natural attacks, improved grab, poison, and constrict. Depending on your campaigns power level tauric is either garbage or really nice (For a melee character, that is very nice for the ultimately 0-2 feats of fighter I traded off).

[Starbuck_II]

Were-Murder of Crows are pretty boss. 4RHD, +2 Inflicted/+3 Natural LA.
You are human who turns into a hundred crows.
Because they legal for Were template unlike other Swarms (Vermin).

As are Lumi, Immune to Vorpal (not very often a worry, Death effects, negative energy effects, negative energy damage, etc.

Gloura: 7 RHD, 6th Bard casting, Cha to AC
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e

Nereid from Stormwrack: Cha to AC, Displacement, Resist Fire/Cold, 1/ay Wall of ice, 1/day Summon 1d3 Small or 1 Med Water Elementals, 3 RHD/3LA.
Displacement always on isn't buyable so this is worth it.

[ksbsnowowl]

If anyone has a 3.0 DMG or something, could you clarify the Feral stuff?
I have one. What exactly is it you want clarified?

[Snowbluff]

I have one. What exactly is it you want clarified?
If it has the definition of 'Monster Hit Dice.'

[TuggyNE]

but we are talking about warlock and artificer ...not fighers and duskblades

Str-based melee characters, including most Fighters and Duskblades, are the ones least likely to want smaller size, since it affects their reach and Str. Anybody else? It's mostly upside. And ranged touch attack-using characters like warlocks are some of the happiest with it.

[CyberThread]

You know am looking at that old Iron Cheif Were spider build


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8441606&postcount=106


Do you think that could have been something that would have benefited from a one level dip in a TOB class, rather then that extra fighter feat?

[ksbsnowowl]

If it has the definition of 'Monster Hit Dice.'

No, it does not. It merely uses "hit dice" throughout the few pages to refer to what we now call Racial HD.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Were-Murder of Crows are pretty boss. 4RHD, +2 Inflicted/+3 Natural LA.
You are human who turns into a hundred crows.
Because they legal for Were template unlike other Swarms (Vermin).

IIRC, the individual crows are Tiny, so unless there's some shenanigans going on, you'd have to be Small to qualify.

[CyberThread]

Make crows into ravens, and then you have kender taking all the shiny things

[Biotroll]

No, it does not. It merely uses "hit dice" throughout the few pages to refer to what we now call Racial HD.

I can second that. I've looked through my 3.0 DMG and looked into MM if there is something, but found nothing. It's just "hit dice" as ksbsnowowl said.