Two Weapon Fighting with Spells?

[Ruethgar]

Could two weapon fighting be used with two of the same weapon-like spell or is spell weaving required?

I was thinking of making an archer character with produce flame as his weapon. It is nice that multiple casts stack for number of shots, but considering the weakness of the spell damage I was looking for ways I could boost the damage output. I recall in CA it says weapon-like spells are applicable for some of the martial weapon feats, but I don't have that book with me at the moment so I don't know the specifics. I was shooting for sheer number of attacks, Master Thrower PrC, hopefully Rapid Shot and TWF. If there is any similar fire spell that has a splash effect, that would be good too for Shaped Splash... could prestidigitation be used to make alchemist fire?

[Lord Vukodlak]

Could two weapon fighting be used with two of the same weapon-like spell or is spell weaving required?

It would depend on the spell, touch spells are discharged if you cast another spell. With produce flame, sure you could TWF with just one casting of the spell as it provides multiple attacks

[Blackhawk748]

Well i know i was able to do it with a Chill Touch on one hand and Corrosive Grasp on the other, was i supposed to be able by RAW? idk. But we figured i have two hands and it took me two actions to cast but it was a lot of fun while both lasted.

[Ruethgar]

Is the produce flame spell even weapon-like? The effect is giving you a weapon which you can then use or not use as you see fit as opposed to the examples from various sources like Melf's Acid Arrow, the Orb Spells, Ray of Enfeeblement which are all considered weapon-like because they require an attack roll as part of their function. Produce Flame functions whether or not you attack.

But if that were to truly disqualify the spell itself from being a weapon-like spell, would it then be more similar to the weapon creation spells and abilities? If so would you then be able to just specialize in the flames as a normal thrown weapon?

[Firebug]

Under the holding the charge rules from SRD: "If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge."
Underlined for emphasis.

[Andion Isurand]

you should check out the Thunderlance spell, its basically a one-handed spear of force that extends and retracts as part of each attack... out to a distance of 20 ft

[Blackhawk748]

Its because you can hold Produce Flame on your hand and keep hitting things until its out of power

[Andion Isurand]

I would check out the Spell Flower spell in Spell Compendium for your needs with regards to dual wielding touch spells.

[Ruethgar]

@Firebug Produce Flame is not a touch spell and so I am not sure those rules for holding a charge apply.

@Andion Thunderlance is a very nice upgrade from produce flame, but it would also require 5 more feats to get unless I went a lot further in caster. And I like the aesthetic of my hands being on fire.

And again, Produce Flame is not a touch spell so Spell Flower could not apply.

[Andion Isurand]

You could also use Fist of Stone (spell compendium) to improve your strength and gain a natural Slam attack that gains 1.5x your str mod to dmg.

How do you like the sound of a burning stone fist?

[Ruethgar]

I was more going for the ranged part of Produce Flame than the melee. I've made far too many melee characters already. If I wanted melee flame fists there are other ways than Produce Flame.

Also at the moment the character is only set up for one spell total as a fighter. So no spells augmenting spells will be available. He is primarily martially focused, just using a magical weapon with his martial skills.

Are the flames considered a weapon, similar to conjuring a loaded gun? Or is the spell itself weapon-like? If the former then there are a few more options open, if the latter then metamagic looks to be my best bet, not martial. I've seen no evidence that the spell itself is weapon-like from what definitions I've found.

[Darrin]

Under the holding the charge rules from SRD: "If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge."
Underlined for emphasis.

I think the problem here is that if you attack with an unarmed strike, you can TWF, but your offhand has to be something other than unarmed strike.

Unless your DM considers unarmed strikes to use multiple striking surfaces, and is ok with unarmed strike being both a primary and offhand attack at the same time. If that's the case, then you should be good to go with TWF = multiple touches.

If not... then there may be some wiggle-room if you have natural weapons that can deliver touches as well. Natural attacks can't be offhand attacks, but secondary attacks are still a "normal" natural weapon attack. This wouldn't use TWF, just the typical primary/secondary full attack progression that natural weapons usually get.