PDA

View Full Version : Conversion from 2E to 3.5E



Jay R
2013-07-27, 11:39 PM
My current DM wants to convert from 2E to 3.5E (which I've never played). I've been reading the rules and trying to work out how the conversion is likely to affect things.

The rest of the party are all 10th or 11th level, (wizard, fighter, ranger, paladin). My character is an elvish thief/wizard (10th/10th). We're all supposed to have roughly the same experience points at the end.

I admit that I don't know the 3.5 system, but the more I read, the less comfortable I am. Is there any way for this to happen that doesn't cripple a multi-class wizard/thief?

Mnemnosyne
2013-07-28, 01:02 AM
How is it possible to be a level 10/10 Mage/Thief? If you have 250,000 xp to be a 10th level mage, you're at least an 11th level thief since they only need 220,000 for 11th level.

In any case, if you want to convert the character to 3.5 what you're going to need is a caster-advancing prestige class that also gives sneak attack and good thief-like skills. I think the Unseen Seer is probably the best class to do that offhand, but I may be mistaken, as I'm not incredibly well-versed in sneak-attack progressing caster classes. It combines sneak attack advancement with full spellcasting progression and a number of decent spellcasting boosts. You'll want to get Hide, Search, and Spot as class skills to qualify to enter though. There are ways to do that, but the easiest is to dip one level of Rogue. This'll also stack on an extra d6 of sneak attack, so not worthless.

Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 4 would put you at 10th level with 3d6 sneak attack, casting as a 9th level wizard, and a pretty solid skill list. You'd cap out Unseen Seer at level 16, at which point it would be wisest to focus on spellcasting the rest of the way; most other sneak attack advancing classes I'm aware of would cost you more caster levels. You'll be a competent Mage/Thief this way though.

TuggyNE
2013-07-28, 01:07 AM
Core gives you Arcane Trickster, which isn't all that amazing (Rog 3/Wiz 5/AT 3 is only 3d6 sneak attack and 8th-level Wizard progression). Spellwarp Sniper, if your character would logically be the type to use spells to sneak attack with, is rather better (Rog 1/Wiz 5/SS 5 gives 3d6 sneak attack and Wizard 10 progression).

Not sure about Unseen Seer, but it might well be still better, and there are probably some other options as well.

Yora
2013-07-28, 02:24 AM
The key thing is that you don't convert things, but simply rebuild from scratch using the original concept.

As a rogue/wizard, there are two options which way to go. You could either be a rogue who knows some spells to help him doing rogue things, or you could be a wizard who also has some sneaking and lockpicking skills. Doing both magic and thief skills in equal amounts results in being really bad at both in 3rd Edition.

Do you get new ability scores, or do you have to keep the same numbers as the 2nd Ed. characters had? If so, what are the stats?

Khedrac
2013-07-28, 05:43 AM
I have to say that the first simple answer is that you cannot really convert from AD&D to D&D 3.X, and this is why WotC never produced and conversion guidelines (other than something saying "don't try").

That said, one can do it, but not very well. The "normal" approach is to do a complete character rebuild aiming for the same theme. However the higher the level of the 3.5 character you are trying to build, the better you need to know (and understand) 3.5 - and knowledge of AD&D isn't going to help you here much, if anything it may hinder!
Low level is the time to do this (no more than 3rd of 4th say for new 3.5 players) As is, your character is 22nd in 3.5 (as that is how you get to 11 levels in each of two classes) while if you have a single-classed companion of around 12th they will be around 12... Yes there are things called "prestige classes" what mean you could be closer to 14th and have the abilities of an 11th level rogue (no "thieves" as a class) and 11th level wizard, but this is why you need to know the system before you convert your character...

The next problem is do you change you characteristics? Our campaign jumped from OD&D to D&D3.0 (yes our DM has been playing that long) and it caused the thief/rogue significant problems. Why? - because for OD&D intelligence did not matter and he was enjoying playing the rogue with an intelligence of 3 (attention span of a butterfly), for D&D3.0 this became a major drawback and the bonus stat points he got for leveling all had to go into Int (3.X is skills based and rogues are very much a skill-based class, Int affects how many skill points one gets per level). Eventually we switched to 3.5 and did a more complete character re-write/replace when his starting Int got boosted to 8 or 10 I think (so not great but not crippling).

In short, so convert to D&D3.5 at your level means you need to know the system quite well, which is a real problem. I would actually recommend that if you really like that campaign don't switch. If you want to switch and don't mind, then start new characters at 1st to 3rd level.

As for all the people discussing builds, ignore it - until you have played a fair bit you won't understand what they are talking about...

Jay R
2013-07-28, 09:37 AM
The key thing is that you don't convert things, but simply rebuild from scratch using the original concept.

As a rogue/wizard, there are two options which way to go. You could either be a rogue who knows some spells to help him doing rogue things, or you could be a wizard who also has some sneaking and lockpicking skills. Doing both magic and thief skills in equal amounts results in being really bad at both in 3rd Edition.

Do you get new ability scores, or do you have to keep the same numbers as the 2nd Ed. characters had? If so, what are the stats?

His stats are:
STR 14; DEX 18; CON 11; INT 19; WIS 15; CHA 12

If the conversion happens, he will get stat progression at 4th & 8th levels.

He has consistently snuck into enemy camps before major battles, but is primarily a wizard once it starts.

He is also now the Earl of Devon, which takes away most of his time away from the game.. And magic items are extremely rare. He currently has three: Boccob's Blessed Book, a +1 longbow, and a brooch that communicates with similar broaches the others have.


How is it possible to be a level 10/10 Mage/Thief? If you have 250,000 xp to be a 10th level mage, you're at least an 11th level thief since they only need 220,000 for 11th level.

Early on, the DM gave experience for the wizard side alone, for solving problems with a magic item. For the last two adventures, he gave out eps by the level, not the number of eps. As a result, my character has 250,000 wizard points and 160,000 Thief points.


Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 4 would put you at 10th level with 3d6 sneak attack, casting as a 9th level wizard, and a pretty solid skill list. You'd cap out Unseen Seer at level 16, at which point it would be wisest to focus on spellcasting the rest of the way; most other sneak attack advancing classes I'm aware of would cost you more caster levels. You'll be a competent Mage/Thief this way though.

OK, thanks. I'd never heard of Unseen Seer, since I only have a PHB. Where can I find the rules for it?

Yora
2013-07-28, 10:06 AM
If the character is primarily a spellcaster, you should increase Intelligence to 21, which means every rogue level will provide you huge amounts of skill points. Because of that, you won't be needing a lot of levels in rogue. I would probably make every third or fourth level rogue, and all the rest wizard. (But start with rogue on 4th level, because in 3.5e, the skill points for the first level class are multiplied by four.)
At tenth level, you could take a level in rogue at 1st, 5th, and 9th level, for example, which would provide you with 75 skill points. What skills you should invest them in depends on what you want to do with the rogue levels, be that stealth, sabotage, or talking.

KillianHawkeye
2013-07-28, 11:56 AM
But start with rogue on 4th level, because in 3.5e, the skill points for the first level class are multiplied by four.

This is only true at Character Level 1, not Class Level 1. If you want the 4x skill points, you need to take Rogue at level 1.

jaybird
2013-07-28, 12:07 PM
He has consistently snuck into enemy camps before major battles, but is primarily a wizard once it starts.

So...stealthy wizard, not magical rogue?

IIRC, Unseen Seer is in Complete Mage...but don't quote me on that.

As for entry, Rogue 1/Wizard 4 I think is the standard entry, though Rogue 2/Wizard 3 is also viable with Practiced Spellcaster if you want Evasion. Something about Able Learner in there too, but I'm a Pathfinder player and the finer details of 3.5 skill optimization evade me.

After Unseen Seer finishes, either Arcane Trickster or Spellwarp Sniper are good continuations. Alternatively, Archmage is always a good generic pick for a Wizard PrC.

Yora
2013-07-28, 12:28 PM
This is only true at Character Level 1, not Class Level 1. If you want the 4x skill points, you need to take Rogue at level 1.
Does it still count as a typo if I misspelled all the three characters of the word? :smallbiggrin:

1st level is of course what I meant (ot the entire sentence would have been pointless anyway).

Alejandro
2013-07-28, 01:09 PM
Perhaps a beguiler would be a good choice for your playstyle.

erikun
2013-07-28, 09:02 PM
I agree that you can't convert a character from AD&D to D&D3e. The differences are just too great, and trying to do it directly (such as Rogue 5/Wizard 5) will generally not give you the character you want.

There are a few things to take note of with the new system. First, magic is far more powerful, and you can have a lot more of it than before. Second, all classes have a single skill list, although different classes have restrictions on how well they can use different skills.


My recommendation would be a Human Rogue 2/Wizard 9 with the Able Learner feat. (Feats are special things that a character can do after taking them, kind of like non-weapon proficiencies.) A human with Able Learner can take "cross-classed" skills at the same expense as classed skills, which means that when taking Wizard levels you can increase skills that are useful to the Rogue half. Taking a level or two of Rogue means that the highest skill level for your Rogue-ish skills will be equal to your level+3, rather than half that for a standard Wizard.

The reason I say human is that only humans can take the Able Learner feat.

The result is that you'll have a character who's a little bit behind the full-classed Wizard in spellcasting, but will have Rogue (Thief) skills like hide, move silently, search and disable device for traps, and so on much like a full-classed Rogue. You'll probably be lacking in the magical research like the full-classed Wizard, but it seems like it might fit your character rather well.

JusticeZero
2013-07-28, 09:22 PM
I'll second starting anew. Just wind down what you have and start a new game with new characters, maybe descended from or carrying on the torch in some way. The conversions are just a serious pain and there is so many new toys that you skip over by doing so.

I'd also switch to PF, just because it's easier to get the materials -that's just YMMV though.

Alabenson
2013-07-28, 09:44 PM
Perhaps a beguiler would be a good choice for your playstyle.

I'm going to second this.

Beguiler is essentially a rouge/mage hybrid class from the Player's Handbook 2 that combines a skillmonkey skill list with spontaneous arcane full casting drawn from a list of primarily enchantment and illusion spells, are generally regarded as one of the better balanced classes in 3.5, and would work well with your current stats.

I should also mention that direct damage spells are generally seen as a suboptimal choice in 3.5 due to the fact that hp totals are significantly higher compared to previous editions.

DonEsteban
2013-07-29, 07:39 AM
I have to say that the first simple answer is that you cannot really convert from AD&D to D&D 3.X, and this is why WotC never produced and conversion guidelines (other than something saying "don't try").
Just for the sake of completeness, that's actually not true. The official conversion manual can be found here: https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a
I'm not saying that this is your best option.

Khedrac
2013-07-29, 09:46 AM
Just for the sake of completeness, that's actually not true. The official conversion manual can be found here: https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a
I'm not saying that this is your best option.

Well I'll be! Thanks - I must look at that some time and laugh.

Jay R
2013-07-29, 10:41 AM
There is no possibility of winding down this game and starting up a different game with 3.5E. What we want to preserve is these characters and this scenario. We'll be discussing whether or not to convert at the next session.

My gut reaction on reading the rules (without ever playing them) was that the multi-class character loses the most by this. You've shown me that this is true, and how to use Unseen Seer to try to reduce the effect of multi-classing.

I am now convinced that:
a. This is a bad idea in general, and
b. if we do it, I want Ornrandir to become an Unseen Seer.

Thanks much.

Scots Dragon
2013-07-29, 10:44 AM
I am now convinced that:
a. This is a bad idea in general, and
b. if we do it, I want Ornrandir to become an Unseen Seer.

Thanks much.

Remember, if you become an unseen seer, you're best off taking practised spellcaster in order to counteract the caster-level loss for your non-divination spells.

Blarmb
2013-07-29, 10:59 AM
OK, thanks. I'd never heard of Unseen Seer, since I only have a PHB. Where can I find the rules for it?

No need to go into anything so specific.

You basically have two options that are easily accesible:

1-) Go Wizard/Rogue/Arcane Trickster. This is all in the Core Material (PHB + DM's Guide) and can be found here:

3.5 Rogue: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm
3.5 Wizard: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard
3.5 Arcane Trickster: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneTrickster.htm

This is perhaps the most literal conversion. Just pick up the 3 levels of rogue, then the rest wizard, then into the PrC.

2-)Go for beguiler. Found in the Players Handbook 2, it's a base class that sounds like most of what you want. The overview can be found here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060711a

This however requires buying a new book. However it's a broad book, that is generally useful for everyone in the group.

Either option should work, which sounds like a "Best Fit" is up to you. I'd personally avoid trying to chase builds that require elements from narrow books(like unseen seer), as it may feel odd to a group just adopting 3.5. It also doesn't allow everyone to pull material from your new book.

TuggyNE
2013-07-29, 05:15 PM
My gut reaction on reading the rules (without ever playing them) was that the multi-class character loses the most by this. You've shown me that this is true, and how to use Unseen Seer to try to reduce the effect of multi-classing.

In general, yes, straight multi-classing between a caster class and a non-caster performs very poorly. Various prestige classes exist to make this more efficient, as seen, but just Rogue X/Wizard Y isn't going to go anywhere.


I am now convinced that:
a. This is a bad idea in general, and
b. if we do it, I want Ornrandir to become an Unseen Seer.

This is probably more or less right, yeah.

Lapak
2013-07-31, 04:25 PM
Yeah, multiclass characters absolutely lose the most in translation due to the change in level advancement. Prior to 3.x, putting half your XP into each class put you (roughly) one level behind the party in both of them until around level 10. That's not bad! A level 9/9 character stands up pretty well to a plain level 10.

Once you hit 3.0, the experience table and the way multiclassing works means that putting half your experience (or half your levels, rather) into each classes means that each class is at half the level it would otherwise be. A 5/5 character does not stack up well next to the 10th level guy; he's not just average at both trades but rather poor at them. Using an 'advance both sides' class like Unseen Seer is pretty much mandatory and even then you tend to lose out unless you get pretty detail-oriented with your character build.

Jay R
2013-07-31, 07:16 PM
Using an 'advance both sides' class like Unseen Seer is pretty much mandatory and even then you tend to lose out unless you get pretty detail-oriented with your character build.

I do get pretty detail-oriented. A related issue is that the DM allowed learning NWPs beyond the level limit by hiring an expert to teach you, and I have quite a few. Replacing them as skills would cost a huge number of skill points.

Larkas
2013-07-31, 09:24 PM
I don't know how useful this will be to you, but there's an official conversion booklet found here (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a). Direct link (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/conversionbook.zip).

EDIT: Swordsaged by a few days. :smallredface: Sorry!

Jay R
2013-08-01, 10:16 AM
EDIT: Swordsaged by a few days. :smallredface: Sorry!

Don't apologize for trying to help. I appreciate it.