OOTS Afterlife

[rs2excelsior]

I don't play D&D, so I don't know how the afterlife works in the game, but something has always bothered me about the way it works in OOTS.

We have a few direct examples of how the afterlife functions.
1) Worshippers of different pantheons wind up in different places, or at least different areas of the same place--worshippers of the Northern and Southern gods were processed on opposite sides of the mountain. On the other hand, we see a paladin climbing the mountain next to Roy.
2) Elan seems pretty sure that the Chaotic Good and Lawful Good afterlifes (afterlives?) are totally separate--to the point that there is no contact whatsoever.
3) This is backed up by Roy's Archon, who states that everyone in that particular afterlife is the same alignment.

This all seems okay... at first. But Roy has been adventuring with the same five people for a good while now. He'll end up in the same afterlife as Durkon, but he will NEVER see any of the other four (not that he'll probably miss Belkar). Elan and Haley will go to the same afterlife, but what if Haley had died and Elan fallen in love with Therkla? She's not CG. Also, Roy and his sister will not go to the same afterlife (though Julia and V can hang out). Frankly, it's surprising that as much of Roy's immediate family was LG as was the case.

I may be misunderstanding how some of this works, but it all seems a little...cruel?

[Mollez]

This is entirely unfounded and without basis, but I think I heard somewhere on these forums that you can visit any afterlife one-alignment removed from yours. Like, if you're LG, you can visit NG and LN. If you're CG, you can visit NG and CN. If you're True Neutral, you can visit LN, CN, NG, and NE.

But again, entirely unfounded.

[Fates]

The D&D rules are purposely very vague on the matter- while an individual does always wind up in a specific afterlife based on their alignment, the rest (travel between afterlives, negotiating a different destination, etc) are all left to the DM to figure out. Thus, it's really impossible to tell.

[factotum]

From what I recall, it's not quite as cut and dried as "you go to the plane of your alignment". For instance, it's entirely possible by RAW for a cleric to worship a god who is one step removed from them in alignment, yet such a cleric would apparently never get to spend their afterlife in their god's dominion? Doesn't make any sense. I'm therefore pretty sure that the "goes to relevant alignment home" only applies to people who don't worship gods. The ones that DO worship gods end up in the afterlife appropriate for that god.

(Also note that the OotS rules seem to allow families to stick together--Roy's brother is far too young to have developed a meaningful alignment, yet he ended up in Celestia with his mother despite that).

[CRtwenty]

Well this all depends on whether the OotSverse follows the regular D&D afterlife rules. But in the normal D&D afterlife people who die wind up as something called a Petitioner, which is a soul body that forms on the Plane they're sent too after death. Devout worshipers of Gods (Clerics especially) appear in their deities realm regardless of what Plane it's located on, everybody else appears in the Plane that most fits their alignment and outlook at the time of death. Exceptions exist of course (such as somebody who sold their soul to a Devil, in which case they immediately go to Hell) but usually that's how it works.

Now Petitioners are bound to their home Plane. While they aren't specifically excluded from other Planes, most have no desire to leave the place they were sent to. Some Planes, such as Carceri, Hades, or Elysium have specific traits that make it difficult or impossible for Petitioners to leave, while others like Baator or the Abyss have inhabitants that make it dangerous to try and leave. And since most Petitioners are low level characters they have no way to leave on their on outside of finding somebody to transport them, or finding a free standing Portal to another Plane (more common then you'd think, but still fairly hard to access).

High level Petitioners could easily leave their Plane for a bit to visit others, however they'll eventually feel the urge to return where they "belong". As high level Adventurers the OotS would fall into this category. Roy's spirit could probably travel to see Elan, or vice versus, but it'd be a rare event.

[martianmister]

I may be misunderstanding how some of this works, but it all seems a little...cruel?

You did not misunderstand, and yes, it's cruel, like many other things in life and D&D.

[Sir_Leorik]

I may be misunderstanding how some of this works, but it all seems a little...cruel?


You did not misunderstand, and yes, it's cruel, like many other things in life and D&D.

Like many other things in D&D it depends greatly on the perspective of the individual. Worshipers of the Aesir and Vanir in a D&D campaign, end up in one of two places: the realm of Valhalla on the first layer of Ysgard if they died honorably, or the Realm of Nifelheim in the Grey Waste if they died of disease, old age or a cowardly or dishonorable death. In Valhalla the petitioners get to fight battles in preparation for Ragnarok; any petitioner who dies during the day is resurrected at sunset and gets to spend the night feasting, drinking a carousing with Thor and the other Aesir and the Vanir. Those who are stuck in Nifelheim are tormented by Hela, the Norse goddess of Death. To followers of other faiths, or to the Athar, this might sound horrible, but the worshipers of the Aesir want to end up in Valhalla, and do not complain much if they end up in Nifelheim.

Also, let's leave "real life" out of this, m'kay? :smallsigh:

[martianmister]

Also, let's leave "real life" out of this, m'kay?

Wow, you are not bossy at all...

[Mollez]

Wow, you are not bossy at all...

No, he's not. I've learned that talking about "real life" is one of the quickest ways to get a thread closed or yourself banned around here.

[Sir_Leorik]

Wow, you are not bossy at all...

Sorry, didn't mean to be a noodge! :smallredface: I've just found the hard way that it's better to leave "real life" issues out of our discussions here.

Getting back on topic, members of the Athar Faction, who deny the divinity of the D&D gods, aren't particularly enamored with the D&D afterlife, especially since they are at risk of ending up in Kelemvor's "Wall of the Faithless" if they aren't worshipers of "The Great Unknown" like Factol Terrance was. The members of the Dustmen Faction, who argue that everyone alive in the D&D multiverse is actually dead already, and that everyone needs to work towards achieving "True Death" also disparage the concept of "Petitioners". The Dustman have a bit more sympathy for the bodies of the deceased than they do for their souls, working in the Mortuary in Sigil to provide last rites for anyone written in the Deadbook in the Cage.

[F.Harr]

Are those rules factions in the D&D gaming world?

[Sir_Leorik]

Are those rules factions in the D&D gaming world?

Factions first appeared in the 2E campaign setting "Planescape"; they have reappeared several times since in 3.X and even in 4E, mostly when discussing Sigil, but also in other cases. Here's a brief description of the original fifteen factions, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faction_(Planescape)) but for more detailed information, I recommend checking out Mimir.net (http://mimir.net/factions/index.html), a mostly defunct Planescape fan site.

[SoC175]

but he will NEVER see any of the other four Well, actually you lose all memories of your mortal lives in standard D&D afterlive anyway. You can't miss what you can't remember

'm therefore pretty sure that the "goes to relevant alignment home" only applies to people who don't worship gods. Indeed. Deities have first dibs on their worshippers. They can also reverse the memory loss, but actually only do it for special souls intended for special positions. Rank and file worshippers also arrive wiped mostly clean

Getting back on topic, members of the Athar Faction, who deny the divinity of the D&D gods, aren't particularly enamored with the D&D afterlife, especially since they are at risk of ending up in Kelemvor's "Wall of the Faithless" Actually no. That's only the fate of faithless souls over which the faerunian pantheon holds sway. Even on Toril souls who are not under their jurisdiction (e.g. from areas rules by the Kara-Turian pantheon) don't go there

I may be misunderstanding how some of this works, but it all seems a little...cruel?Also the D&D afterlife is not really eternal.

Souls over time become more and more purified until they are essentially perfect representations of their deity/plane upon which they merge with their deity/plane empowering it.

For good deities that could take the form of being absorbed during a loving embrace while evil deities literally devour the souls of their followers once they have ripened enough

[Porthos]

Sorry, didn't mean to be a noodge! :smallredface: I've just found the hard way that it's better to leave "real life" issues out of our discussions here.

Getting back on topic, members of the Athar Faction, who deny the divinity of the D&D gods, aren't particularly enamored with the D&D afterlife, especially since they are at risk of ending up in Kelemvor's "Wall of the Faithless" if they aren't worshipers of "The Great Unknown" like Factol Terrance was.

Wasn't the "Wall of the Faithless" FR specific?

[Sir_Leorik]

Wasn't the "Wall of the Faithless" FR specific?

It's a bit more complicated; in 2E Kelemvor tore down the "Wall of Faithless" at some point, and as a result Asmodeus stepped in and began harvesting the souls of those who were not pledged to a deity, including those Athar who were not specifically worshiping the "Great Unknown" that Factol Terrance espoused. (Not all of the Athar's Factors agreed with Terrance, and most Namers never actually bothered learning about Terrance's ideas.)

In 3.X and 4E the "Wall of the Faithless" was rebuilt by Kelemvor, but it only applies to the Forgotten Realms' cosmology.

[Porthos]

It's a bit more complicated; in 2E Kelemvor tore down the "Wall of Faithless" at some point, and as a result Asmodeus stepped in and began harvesting the souls of those who were not pledged to a deity, including those Athar who were not specifically worshiping the "Great Unknown" that Factol Terrance espoused. (Not all of the Athar's Factors agreed with Terrance, and most Namers never actually bothered learning about Terrance's ideas.)

Ah, the Planescape campaigns I was a part of never incorporated that. And if they had, I suspect there would have been an uptick in membership in the Godkillers sub-faction (I think that was their name at least). :smalltongue:

[Sir_Leorik]

Ah, the Planescape campaigns I was a part of never incorporated that. And if they had, I suspect there would have been an uptick in membership in the Godkillers sub-faction (I think that was their name at least). :smalltongue:

That bit of lore came out after "Planescape" was winding down (if not already discontinued), and there are plenty of "Planescape" fans who consider it non-canon.

[SoC175]

It's a bit more complicated; in 2E Kelemvor tore down the "Wall of Faithless" at some point, and as a result Asmodeus stepped in and began harvesting the souls of those who were not pledged to a deity, including those Athar who were not specifically worshiping the "Great Unknown" that Factol Terrance espoused. (Not all of the Athar's Factors agreed with Terrance, and most Namers never actually bothered learning about Terrance's ideas.) Really, where was that written?

[Sir_Leorik]

Really, where was that written?

I believe it was in Guide to Hell by Chris Pramas, which was released in 1999. According to that sourcebook, Asmodeus is supposedly consuming the souls of the Athar and other faithless. Like I said, many "Planescape" fans don't consider Guide to Hell canonical, and it was never mentioned in either 3.X or 4E.

[SoC175]

I believe it was in Guide to Hell by Chris Pramas, which was released in 1999. According to that sourcebook, Asmodeus is supposedly consuming the souls of the Athar and other faithless. Like I said, many "Planescape" fans don't consider Guide to Hell canonical, and it was never mentioned in either 3.X or 4E.I don't recall Kelemvor and the wall being mentioned in GtH

[Sir_Leorik]

I don't recall Kelemvor and the wall being mentioned in GtH

You're probably right, I may be misremembering things. I do remember that GtH was pretty controversial; Asmodeus was never directly named in any "Planescape" products as a result of the lingering "moral panic" TSR was trying to distance itself from, so GtH was the first appearance of Asmodeus in 2E. His origin was tied into the Couatl god Jizirian, making Asmodeus the equivalent of a greater god. Asmodeus sought to promote faithlessness, in hopes of weakening the other gods, and I remember GtH outright stating that Asmodeus was responsible for establishing the Athar Faction and that he fed on the souls of Athar Petitioners. Like I said, a lot of "Planescape" fans were not happy.

[SoC175]

You're probably right, I may be misremembering things. I do remember that GtH was pretty controversial; Asmodeus was never directly named in any "Planescape" products as a result of the lingering "moral panic" TSR was trying to distance itself from, so GtH was the first appearance of Asmodeus in 2E. His origin was tied into the Couatl god Jizirian, making Asmodeus the equivalent of a greater god. Asmodeus sought to promote faithlessness, in hopes of weakening the other gods, and I remember GtH outright stating that Asmodeus was responsible for establishing the Athar Faction and that he fed on the souls of Athar Petitioners. Like I said, a lot of "Planescape" fans were not happy.I just checked it. It says that he feeds on the non-believer and started many cults to produce more of them. It said that the athar are ironically his greates allies and that even without him having to start them (althought he secretly aids them)

In this light Kelemvor tearing down the fall would be good for Asmodeus, but Kelemvor/Wall are not actually mentioned in GtH