Can skills get -too- high?

[INoKnowNames]

I tried searching because I could have sworn I saw at least one Giantitp related post on this before...

I'm building a character, but I'm stuck on planning out how high I want to get certain skills. I can't figure out how to squeeze any more points into my build, though, so instead I'm starting to wonder if there's a consensus on how high certain skills really -need- to be pumped before adding more points or modifiers is a waste.

For example, use Magic Device. Once you can reliably hit a DC 40, you can activate any non-epic Magic Item, right? There's not much point in pumping it beyond that if you already can get that much.

Or Handle Animal. You normally use this skill out of combat anyway, and for those checks that aren't usually more than 35, you can take 10 for, so once you hit +25, is it worth putting more points into it?

Speaking of animals, Ride. The highest Core DC is a flat 20 from the looks of it, if you aren't using the Mounted Combat ability anyway. And even if you do, 21-40 AC to block an attack is pretty nice, but miss chances can cover that rather than trying to sink more points, right?

These are just a few examples; how right are they? And what about other skills?

[Piggy Knowles]

When I do a skill-heavy build, I always write out what skill benchmarks I want to hit, usually in three categories:

1. Opposed rolls. Things like hide, move silently, spot, etc. If it's an opposed roll rather than a fixed DC, and the skill is important to my build, I try to keep this as close to 23 ranks as possible.

2. Fixed DCs. UMD, search, DD, open lock, and a whole host of other skills have fixed DCs I want to hit, and I account for that many skill points. This should take into a account things like taking 10, etc. No point wasting ranks when I don't have to - I can always find a use for those spare ranks.

3. Minor benchmarks. A rank in every knowledge skill on a build with Knowledge Devotion, for instance. 5 ranks in balance. Synergy requirements. Skill trick, feat or PrC requirements. Basically, this section is for all the skills I want to have access to, but that don't need more than a minimal investment.

Then I add everything up to find out how many skill ranks I need in all. If I don't have enough ranks, I either find a way to boost Int, change classes, or trim the list. If I have extra, I start looking into skill tricks, languages, trained only skills, etc.

[Deophaun]

In general, it relies on the type of variable used. You don't want to go over 127 if you're using a byte, for example.


For example, use Magic Device. Once you can reliably hit a DC 40, you can activate any non-epic Magic Item, right? There's not much point in pumping it beyond that if you already can get that much.
Unless you're an artificer, which can make use of UMD checks as high as 55. (And I'm sure even higher)

Balance is often cited as one that's good to put 5 points into, and then no more.

There are some you might only want for the synergies. Building a Diplomancer? 5 ranks of bluff. Cleric? 5 ranks Knowledge (Religion).

[Piggy Knowles]

For an example of what I mean, here's the skill load-out I worked out for an old character of mine:

MAX:
Bluff, Diplomacy, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot(161 ranks total)

OTHER SKILL BENCHMARKS:
Autohypnosis 1 rank, balance 5 ranks, concentration 1 rank, craft (alchemy) 10 ranks, disable device 10 ranks, disguise 5 ranks, gather information 5 ranks, knowledge (arcana) 1 rank, knowledge (local) 5 ranks, knowledge (religion) 1 rank, open lock 5 ranks, perform (any) 8 ranks, search 18 ranks, sleight of hand 12 ranks, spellcraft 1 rank, use magic device 19 ranks (107 ranks total)

SKILL TRICKS:
Assume Quirk, Clarity of Vision, Conceal Spellcasting, Listen to This, Mosquito's Bite, Nimble Charge, Second Impression, Social Recovery, Spot the Weak Point (12 ranks total)

=280 skill ranks needed total

Some of those skill benchmarks seem arbitrary, but they weren't. For instance, search was designed to find DC 34, which IIRC was the highest listed trap DC in the DMG.

I knew I wanted a base of changeling rogue 1/artificer 2/factotum 3/uncanny trickster 3, eventually going into Ardent Dilettante, and I would be starting with a 16 Int and boosting it at levels 4 and 8, which gave me a start of 128 skill ranks. That meant I would need a minimum of 152 skill ranks for my remaining 11 levels. Doable but tough, so I looked at what I had and began trimming. I had knock available, so those 5 ranks in open lock were ditched. Craft (alchemy) could be supplemented with Spell Storing Item -> GotA, so that dropped down as well. You get the idea.

Sometimes I do the reverse, by the way - if I know my build, I'll calculate out how many skill points I have, then start making my lists of what skills I want and crossing off the total.

It's complicated to do things this way, but if you're playing a skill-focused build, how you spend your points is one of the most important decisions you'll make. I find that it also helps me understand my character and what he/she is capable of better.

[prufock]

When I do a skill-heavy build, I always write out what skill benchmarks I want to hit, usually in three categories:

1. Opposed rolls. Things like hide, move silently, spot, etc. If it's an opposed roll rather than a fixed DC, and the skill is important to my build, I try to keep this as close to 23 ranks as possible.

2. Fixed DCs. UMD, search, DD, open lock, and a whole host of other skills have fixed DCs I want to hit, and I account for that many skill points. This should take into a account things like taking 10, etc. No point wasting ranks when I don't have to - I can always find a use for those spare ranks.

3. Minor benchmarks. A rank in every knowledge skill on a build with Knowledge Devotion, for instance. 5 ranks in balance. Synergy requirements. Skill trick, feat or PrC requirements. Basically, this section is for all the skills I want to have access to, but that don't need more than a minimal investment.

Then I add everything up to find out how many skill ranks I need in all. If I don't have enough ranks, I either find a way to boost Int, change classes, or trim the list. If I have extra, I start looking into skill tricks, languages, trained only skills, etc.

I do exactly this. I even have a spreadsheet!

[Piggy Knowles]

I do exactly this. I even have a spreadsheet!

Oh my goodness, I have so many spreadsheets. They're great, especially when I'm at work and people can't tell at a glance whether what I'm doing is actually work-related or not...

[Forrestfire]

Don't forget epic uses of skills, if you can get them high enough.

Ride check DCs go up to 60, allowing you to act normally but get a flat 4+ to armor class while riding.

Sense motive of 100 lets you read their thoughts.

Sleight of Hand checks that hit 100 let you give an ally a 10-foot step as a free action, or 80 as a standard.

Autohypnosis checks of 60 give you temporary hp and/or DR.

The other skills have epic uses too, but these are the most useful I saw.

These might be a bit high for some of them, but they're there.

[Chronos]

While I agree in general with putting one rank each in trained-only skills, just so you have a chance to roll the die, I wouldn't generally bother with one point in Autohypnosis. It's great if maxed out, but with only one point, most of the things it replaces would be better than the skill check anyway. If you're not at least half-maxed, you might as well just roll normal saving throws etc.

I also usually put at least a few points in various skills just for roleplay purposes. Though it's not uncommon to end up finding uses for those skills once you have them, anyway.

[Piggy Knowles]

While I agree in general with putting one rank each in trained-only skills, just so you have a chance to roll the die, I wouldn't generally bother with one point in Autohypnosis. It's great if maxed out, but with only one point, most of the things it replaces would be better than the skill check anyway. If you're not at least half-maxed, you might as well just roll normal saving throws etc.

I also usually put at least a few points in various skills just for roleplay purposes. Though it's not uncommon to end up finding uses for those skills once you have them, anyway.

This build I referenced there intended to have Divine Insight up at all times. The one point was enough to memorize something or auto-stabilize when necessary.

[TuggyNE]

I was gonna mention epic skills, but someone already did.


In general, it relies on the type of variable used. You don't want to go over 127 if you're using a byte, for example.

That's only for signed bytes; unsigned is fine all the way up to 255! Remember kids, never use signed data types when unsigned will do.

[kulosle]

Another important mention is that it depends on your classes. Their are lots of cool ways of getting extra uses for skills, and certain people need higher skills than others.

But as for general purposes i think the guidelines for opposed skill checks depends on what they use to oppose it. If it's a skill that no class particularly needs than no NPC will optimize it so you only need 27 + your level. You can have your level +3 ranks and then a +4 from stats and if they roll a 20 and you roll a 1 you still win. If the opposed skill is one that some classes do optimize, like concentration or listen and spot. Then its a guessing game of how much you think your GM will optimize the NPC's skill.