on Sabine

[Mightymosy]

Rich Burlew seems to be around the forum a lot these times, so I feel this is the right time to write this congratulation I had in my head for quite a while.

This is about Sabine :sabine:. I'm so amazed by how Rich Burlew portays this particular character.

First, her name. You'd think a demon from below would have a strange fantasy name with Xs and 's, but she just has that common girls name. I found that so funny and cool when she was introduced.

And after 900 strips, I find she is such a well-written character, that I can't quite get over her.

What makes me think so? She is a shapeshifter character. Usually, when there are shapeshifters, they dominate the entire story. Everyone could be it. The whole story usually revolves around the shapeshifting ability and you are constantly wondering.
Especially if said shapeshifter is a a succubus, a demon from hell that probably has a lot more supernatural powers, which seduces men and then kills them. Usually when such a character appears in a story, she (or it) warps the entire thing around them.
But with Sabine, it isn't like that. She uses her abilities in such doses that they come surprising, or tense, or funny and entertaining, but the story is never primarily about her.

With Sabine being a supernatural demon from hell who has the ability to shapeshift, to fly, potentially to hypnotically seduce victims, appearantly some invulnerability, some "planeshifting" power, one might assume she could warp the story. But she doesn't, but for all the right reasons.

See, for example, teleportation. When teleportation is around, characters would use it, so an author has to come up with some excuses why a certain character can not use it when it would disturb the plot. For example, the Epic Cloister Spell might be such a thing that had to be invented to prevent certain heroes to teleport (and to scry). The most common example I think is in Star Trek when Shields always seem to hinder teleporting when it would make the mission too easy. Not that I find the Cloister solution bad, it just illustrates the problemt with some supernatural abilities in plot creation. Similar thing can be said about time travel.

The story isn't over, so of course I can't know about all of Sabine's motivations, but so far she seems such a natural character. The strip where she watches TV at the fiends' place is a super example. Inside her demonic skin there is a girl with "human" emotions that drive her - well, maybe more sex drive than I have ever seen, but all in all she is an ordinary character, and that's what I find so adorable about her presentation.

And her character dictates how she uses her supernatural abilities. From the perspective of how her character and her motivations are presented, I think it makes perfect sence how and when she uses her abilities. And this is why I find her so brilliantly written. When I think of succubus, I think of uber-powerful story warping end boss style demon, but Sabine is delivered as a person.

Additionally, I think she has some of the best lines in the comic so far. That, and maybe the fact that she is a supernatural personification of (illicit) sex :smallbiggrin:, makes her one of my favourite characters of the whole cast.

Of course I hate myself for liking her, because she is a very bad person after all. Murdering people and stuff, you know? The thing is it is so hard to hate her because of how "human" she is written. When she is kissing Elan, or when she is banished, these are some of the most emotional parts of the comic, and you just have to like her. Then you remember she killed like 100 innocent people in Cliffport and you are disgusted. Then you find out she wants to be loved by Nale and are confused. Then you find out why she loves guys like Elan - she wants to change them. While that is really funny because it mirrors real life women who want to change men (for the better, though) it also makes her likable again - because relatable. You feel feel sorry for her.
Then you realise that Succubi are just that: evil horrors from hell that just happen to charm you nevertheless...Rich Burlew, you might have meta-leveled me...:redface:

[Gift Jeraff]

I was expecting some kind of joke about someone being on Sabine, but I agree. I really enjoy her character.

[SavageWombat]

For those who don't know, Sabine was the name of a tribe that lived near the new city of Rome. The Romans, lacking wives, invited the Sabines to a big festival, then stole their women and ran off. According to the legend, the Romans merely used oratory to persuade the Sabine women to accept Roman husbands.

[Emanick]

For those who don't know, Sabine was the name of a tribe that lived near the new city of Rome. The Romans, lacking wives, invited the Sabines to a big festival, then stole their women and ran off. According to the legend, the Romans merely used oratory to persuade the Sabine women to accept Roman husbands.

And then, if my memory of the legend serves, during a subsequent war between the Romans and the Sabine, the women of the Sabine tribe refused to take sides, standing between their husbands and their fathers and brothers and forcing the two sides to make peace.

It reminds me of Sabine being caught between her loyalty to Nale and her loyalty to the IFCC. Perhaps she and the other Sabine women will take a similar path.

[AlaskaOOTSFan]

And then, if my memory of the legend serves, during a subsequent war between the Romans and the Sabine, the women of the Sabine tribe refused to take sides, standing between their husbands and their fathers and brothers and forcing the two sides to make peace.

It reminds me of Sabine being caught between her loyalty to Nale and her loyalty to the IFCC. Perhaps she and the other Sabine women will take a similar path.


For those who don't know, Sabine was the name of a tribe that lived near the new city of Rome. The Romans, lacking wives, invited the Sabines to a big festival, then stole their women and ran off. According to the legend, the Romans merely used oratory to persuade the Sabine women to accept Roman husbands.

Holy cow. Really?

Man, Rich B - great choice of name.

[Gift Jeraff]

Also, Tarquin the Proud once defeated the Sabines.

[SandboxPenguin]

I would say she is better than Nale even. She has those boring mlments when stuxk "there" however.

[KillianHawkeye]

According to the legend, the Romans merely used oratory to persuade the Sabine women to accept Roman husbands.

Like I always say, chicks like a guy with good oral skills. :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

[littlebum2002]

I agree, she is a well written character. I do know one thing: I have tremendous respect for Nale because of her. If I had a girlfriend who was a SHAPESHIFTER as well as a LIVING EMBODIMENT OF SEX, I certainly would not be spending all my time fighting people...

[SavageWombat]

I agree, she is a well written character. I do know one thing: I have tremendous respect for Nale because of her. If I had a girlfriend who was a SHAPESHIFTER as well as a LIVING EMBODIMENT OF SEX, I certainly would not be spending all my time fighting people...

Ah, but when the shapeshifting living embodiment of sex requires that you fight people or don't get the nookie, your perspective changes...

[EnragedFilia]

A couple things.

First, a word on game mechanics.


What makes me think so? She is a shapeshifter character. Usually, when there are shapeshifters, they dominate the entire story. Everyone could be it. The whole story usually revolves around the shapeshifting ability and you are constantly wondering.
Especially if said shapeshifter is a a succubus, a demon from hell that probably has a lot more supernatural powers, which seduces men and then kills them. Usually when such a character appears in a story, she (or it) warps the entire thing around them.

Here's what you have to remember about the vanilla succubus as presented in the SRD: she's a glass cannon with a few decent abilities all of which rely on either surprise or subterfuge. As a CR7 with 6d8+6 hp, any halfway decently-built character I've ever seen could oneshot one of those on a non-crit. The less-well-built characters might take a whole round, and only someone who doesn't know what he's doing or isn't expecting to fight anything would get caught without protection from evil at that level. (please note that my perspective is that of a DDO player, and thus is admittedly skewed toward a very "high magic" type of setting). As such, a succubus can be a dangerous foe, but not to characters of the Order's level. Even back when she first appeared, Sabine always would have needed a conveniently tailored plotline to pose any kind of threat.

Now some more words on storytelling


The story isn't over, so of course I can't know about all of Sabine's motivations, but so far she seems such a natural character. The strip where she watches TV at the fiends' place is a super example. Inside her demonic skin there is a girl with "human" emotions that drive her

I see it as the other way round: layered on top of this demonic creature are the cultural expectations of a real-world, internet-enabled, English-speaking audience (that's us), being toyed with in numerous ways for the sake of humor. It's a similar narrative trick to the crystal ball wired to a TeeVo which subsequently turns out to have an "Eviscerate" button: take something alien, give it familiar qualities to make the audience think of it as familiar, then demonstrate it's still alien after all.

[littlebum2002]

Ah, but when the shapeshifting living embodiment of sex requires that you fight people or don't get the nookie, your perspective changes...

Is that kinda like how I have to clean the house first? I guess it beats slaughtering innocents.

[Liliet]

I started really liking Sabine when she started showing hints of REALLY loving Nale. The first one that I didn't understand at once but noticed on a reread was in Azure city, in one of my favorite scenes - "Nale! Nale! nale!". She endangered Nale's plan and Nale himself, and would have basically saved Haley's life if Elan didn't get his narrative-warping prestige class abilities. Just emotions, nothing rational.
Then it was getting more and more clear, along with the fact of her being actually a mole in Nale's team... and I say it has such great potential of plot and character development there.
Especially now that Nale has shown himself to be a serious threat when he really is serious and not needlesly complicated about it...

[Bulldog Psion]

Sabine is indeed a complex character. However, it is the rules of the D&D game itself that makes her shapeshifting less than the world-breaking thing it would be in other genres.

[EnragedFilia]

Not *all* other genres, of course. The changelings from DS9 never seemed to do much with their shapeshifting powers, possibly because they were enough of a threat just by inexplicably bossing around all the other antagonists. And that's in the main series where nobody has any demonstrated capability for discerning who is and isn't a shapeshifter.

[JCAll]

Is that kinda like how I have to clean the house first? I guess it beats slaughtering innocents.

I dunno. I bet all those innocents fought a lot less hard than some of the stuff in my sink.

[Sylian]

Tanar'ri (type of demon) normally come from the Abyss, not Hell (or Baator). Hell is a Lawful Evil plane, the Abyss is a Chaotic Evil plane. A succubus is a tanar'ri and would normally come from the Abyss. Now, this raises the question: Why is Sabine in Hell? When banished by Holy Word, she probably should have returned to the Abyss, shouldn't she?

I suppose there could be a few explanations for this:

1. She was banished to the Abyss, but was transported to Hell by her own means or by the IFCC. This is likely.

2. Hell is her home plane, for some reason. I find this unlikely, but it's possible.

3. The Giant made a mistake. This is quite possible as well, though I suspect #1 is more likely.

4. She's not actually a demon, but a devil, or part devil. At this point, I find this highly unlikely.

[KillianHawkeye]

1. She was banished to the Abyss, but was transported to Hell by her own means or by the IFCC. This is likely.

It's almost certainly this one. The banishment effect of Holy Word only prevents her from returning to the plane she was banished from. She can still travel to other planes as she normally would, and she had plenty of time to get to Lee's hideout between the time she was banished and the time we see her again.

[Mightymosy]

I started really liking Sabine when she started showing hints of REALLY loving Nale. The first one that I didn't understand at once but noticed on a reread was in Azure city, in one of my favorite scenes - "Nale! Nale! nale!". She endangered Nale's plan and Nale himself, and would have basically saved Haley's life if Elan didn't get his narrative-warping prestige class abilities. Just emotions, nothing rational.
Then it was getting more and more clear, along with the fact of her being actually a mole in Nale's team... and I say it has such great potential of plot and character development there.
Especially now that Nale has shown himself to be a serious threat when he really is serious and not needlesly complicated about it...

You mean the scene after the bar scene with V?

I always thought she was just overly jealous then.

Personally I just found her incredibly funny back then.

The moment I really began to "like" her was also when I realised she loves Nale - but for me that was the moment when she kissed Elan. Strange, but true.

Strange how even though Nale is such an a*hole that I like Sabine more when she likes him - maybe just because it makes her more human and less otherworldly demon.

My absolute favourite line is the threeway thing, though. Back then, I just liked her as a funny char, but man, that was a good line :smallredface:

[Liliet]

You mean the scene after the bar scene with V?

I always thought she was just overly jealous then.
She's a frikking succubus! Do you think jealousy is normal for them? Their sexual partners/victims usually have other partners and loved ones, and that would be a pretty crappy succubus to care. To be overly jealous about Nale's date with Haley she has to have some feelings towards him.


Personally I just found her incredibly funny back then.
Well... that, too (=


The moment I really began to "like" her was also when I realised she loves Nale - but for me that was the moment when she kissed Elan. Strange, but true.

Strange how even though Nale is such an a*hole that I like Sabine more when she likes him - maybe just because it makes her more human and less otherworldly demon.
Same for me. For a demon, caring in any way about ANYONE other than herself is quite a feat.


My absolute favourite line is the threeway thing, though. Back then, I just liked her as a funny char, but man, that was a good line :smallredface:
Weeell... yes. I liked it too. *innocent whistle while looking in the other direction*

[DeliaP]

Tanar'ri (type of demon) normally come from the Abyss, not Hell (or Baator). Hell is a Lawful Evil plane, the Abyss is a Chaotic Evil plane. A succubus is a tanar'ri and would normally come from the Abyss. Now, this raises the question: Why is Sabine in Hell? When banished by Holy Word, she probably should have returned to the Abyss, shouldn't she?

I suppose there could be a few explanations for this:

1. She was banished to the Abyss, but was transported to Hell by her own means or by the IFCC. This is likely.

2. Hell is her home plane, for some reason. I find this unlikely, but it's possible.

3. The Giant made a mistake. This is quite possible as well, though I suspect #1 is more likely.

4. She's not actually a demon, but a devil, or part devil. At this point, I find this highly unlikely.

Wait, isn't Sabine Lawful Good? I mean, we know as canonical fact that a succubus can be lawful good. And really, what in comic proof do we have that she isn't?

*runs away as fast as possible*

[JennTora]

Tanar'ri (type of demon) normally come from the Abyss, not Hell (or Baator). Hell is a Lawful Evil plane, the Abyss is a Chaotic Evil plane. A succubus is a tanar'ri and would normally come from the Abyss. Now, this raises the question: Why is Sabine in Hell? When banished by Holy Word, she probably should have returned to the Abyss, shouldn't she?

I suppose there could be a few explanations for this:

1. She was banished to the Abyss, but was transported to Hell by her own means or by the IFCC. This is likely.

2. Hell is her home plane, for some reason. I find this unlikely, but it's possible.

3. The Giant made a mistake. This is quite possible as well, though I suspect #1 is more likely.

4. She's not actually a demon, but a devil, or part devil. At this point, I find this highly unlikely.

Maybe the IFCC re-linked her to whatever part of hell they're in somehow.

[NerdyKris]

She's a frikking succubus! Do you think jealousy is normal for them? Their sexual partners/victims usually have other partners and loved ones, and that would be a pretty crappy succubus to care. To be overly jealous about Nale's date with Haley she has to have some feelings towards him.

She wasn't jealous about his date, she was jealous that he was killing Haley without her being there. Remember, Nale says "I was going to kill her" at the same time she says "You were going to kill her!". Then she explains that she wouldn't have cared about him sleeping with someone else, and that she had sex 3 times while she was gone.

[Sylian]

Wait, isn't Sabine Lawful Good? I mean, we know as canonical fact that a succubus can be lawful good. And really, what in comic proof do we have that she isn't?

*runs away as fast as possible*While I do realize that you were joking, I'd like to say this: We actually do have in comic proof that she isn't Good. This comic proves it: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0860.html

[Gift Jeraff]

Not quite. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#evilSubtype) A Lawful Good demon would be susceptible to all 4 alignment word spells.

[Kish]

Wait, isn't Sabine Lawful Good? I mean, we know as canonical fact that a succubus can be lawful good. And really, what in comic proof do we have that she isn't?

*runs away as fast as possible*
Exactly the same amount of proof that we have that Belkar isn't Lawful Good.

(Slightly less; we can prove Belkar was non-Lawful when he took his last barbarian level, whenever that was, and that he was non-Good when Durkon cast Holy Word.)

[NerdyKris]

Exactly the same amount of proof that we have that Belkar isn't Lawful Good.

(Slightly less; we can prove Belkar was non-Lawful when he took his last barbarian level, whenever that was, and that he was non-Good when Durkon cast Holy Word.)

Actually, he was definitely evil as of Strip number 11 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html), where he resisted Unholy Blight.

[EnragedFilia]

And he was still evil when the Giant outright said he was evil on the forums to quiet down some particularly annoying alignment debate or other.