[Burning Wheel] Beliefs and Newbies

[Oracle_Hunter]

Back again to pick the brains of Burning Wheel veterans :smallbiggrin:

When you have newbie Players (to Burning Wheel or roleplaying in general) how do you get them to "think" about their Beliefs in play? I've found that new Players can get themselves lost in the situation and focus more on problem solving and learning the other mechanics and just plain forget about working with those Beliefs they put down during character creation.

Have you just waited for them to "sweat it out" and let them learn at their own pace? In particular, what do you do when there are no veteran Players to show them the way?

[Totally Guy]

No game starts out with veteran players. :smalltongue:

The beliefs are as much there for the GM as the players. The GM's situation should interact strongly with the character's beliefs. If that's happening and the players aren't taking action then the GM can say "hey, you have a belief about this, what are you going to do now?" Action usually follows.

I find the tricky part is having the players write good beliefs in the first place. They are the player's priorities. The player has to think about the kind of experience they want out of playing Burning Wheel and use the belief to tell everyone else what they want the focus of play to be for their guy.

I said "playing Burning Wheel" specifically because it's a game about your character being challenged. If the player's priorities is to just talk in character in a conflict free in-game environment then this isn't the game for that. I mention this specifically because I had this problem myself early on back when I didn't understand it.

Is your problem that players aren't acting on good beliefs or that you've got weird beliefs that lack legit means to challenge and lack win conditions?

[Oracle_Hunter]

Is your problem that players aren't acting on good beliefs or that you've got weird beliefs that lack legit means to challenge and lack win conditions?
No no, I think I've got good beliefs to work with.

Here's a sample:
Find a way to replicate the White Box and bring it to the world
Knowledge is power; no information is too dangerous to be kept secret.
Extraordinary powers and devices make the world a better place when used responsibly
The issue with this Player -- when asked -- is he got so wrapped up in the plot that he hasn't bothered to think about his Beliefs at all.

That said, I haven't focused on pressing any one particular Player's buttons because they are all learning the system and have -- apparently -- decided that Beliefs take a back seat to flexing their abilities.

[Xefas]

Here's a sample:
Find a way to replicate the White Box and bring it to the world
Knowledge is power; no information is too dangerous to be kept secret.
Extraordinary powers and devices make the world a better place when used responsibly

I'll defer to Totally Guy on this, as he's probably the more experienced authority on this kind of thing, but my gut reaction to these was that #1 isn't even a belief, and that #3 is kinda wishy-washy and could use more punch. #2 is great.

Also, I might be misinterpreting, but this-


The issue with this Player -- when asked -- is he got so wrapped up in the plot that he hasn't bothered to think about his Beliefs at all.

-kinda worries me. From what I've come to understand, the entire point of the plot in a Burning Wheel game is to bring the characters' beliefs to the forefront, and put them under constant scrutiny. Pursuing the plot and having your beliefs challenged should be synonymous. It sounds like either the plot isn't personal and/or brutal enough, or that player is being evasive.

Of course, let me make a disclaimer here that, I've only been able to dabble in Burning Wheel, and that I found it the most difficult game to GM that I've ever played*. As far as I know, intense stumbling is par for the course.

*I've done a lot more Fate stuff since then, so I'm curious if all the Aspect writing and Aspect compelling practice I've had would carry over somewhat.

[Oracle_Hunter]

-kinda worries me. From what I've come to understand, the entire point of the plot in a Burning Wheel game is to bring the characters' beliefs to the forefront, and put them under constant scrutiny. Pursuing the plot and having your beliefs challenged should be synonymous. It sounds like either the plot isn't personal and/or brutal enough, or that player is being evasive.
Well, I still have 3 other Players with their own Beliefs to consider (for 12 total Beliefs!) so my first adventure has been comparatively unfocused vis-a-vis Beliefs.

I'm not sure how veteran BW GMs do it, but if I spent all my time designing adventures where I had to force the Players to confront their Beliefs I don't know where I'd find time to actually have a narrative as well.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

The narrative can sorta come handily out of the Beliefs, actually.

One bit of neat advice I got: make one Belief about the upcoming scenario (which requires the players to know a bit of what's coming), make one Belief as an "evergreen" Belief that's a philosophical/ethical stance, and make one Belief about another member of the party. That lets your character shine in a lot of aspects. (The term "evergreen" comes from the fact that the Belief isn't one that changes every session.)

RE: the first sample Belief there--the best advice for goal Beliefs is this...if you can't accomplish it in a session, you're probably better off keeping it in mind and crafting a smaller, actually achievable goal instead.

The third sample Belief there needs a bit of dynamism; think of a Belief as a call to action. What does your belief in extraordinary devices and powers lead you to do? What troublesome things can it involve you in?

Another thing to think of: Beliefs are a great way to invest in the world and to shape the world. Work it out with the GM. If you write Beliefs about important NPCs who will be in the action upcoming, for instance, that works great.

Keep in mind that Beliefs are present. They're written for the Now. They should be written about NPCs who are present in the action, parts of the world that are ever-present. They are also cues from the players, as Totally Guy says, on what should be happening in the game.

"Witches are interesting; I must find more of them and examine them." screams for the GM to start adding sorcerous characters into the game.

"Lady Jain is actually a lowborn, and I will expose her secret." tells us that the action should revolve around intrigue and subterfuge.

Even a more "evergreen" Belief like "There is nobody beyond your power if you know their darkest secret." demands you to act on it, and tells everyone that you want the session to have dirt-digging-up.

So there's a bit of give-and-take. The GM gives the players some tips on the stuff that's gonna pop up. The players talk about the sorts of stuff they found in play, as they write that into Beliefs, and the GM can get ready to work that into the story. Beliefs are about poking the setting and your character in places that you find to be interesting. Look at your character's traits, at their past decisions, at the neat parts of the world that have been established, and find sparks that inspire you!

...I think I was momentarily captivated by the masque of Luke Crane.

But seriously. Emphasize that Beliefs are made to be changed. Get everyone to write a Belief that'll only last one session. (Because remember, you can change it at the start of the session.) Get everyone to write two Beliefs that'll only last one session. Let 'em keep the last Belief as something long-term, if they want.

Oh, and write 'em out. Have them use notecards, and sharpie up those Beliefs in big bold black letters so that everyone can see. That helps you steer the course of play to hit at least a few Beliefs.

[Totally Guy]

This is how I prep for a game of Burning Wheel at the stage you're at:

I already have the campaign Big Picture and the player's beliefs. I also have existing NPCs and game content that's already happened.

BW supports prepping a situation rife with conflict rather than a plot so that's what I'd do.


I'd start off with looking at each of the beliefs.

•Extraordinary powers and devices make the world a better place when used responsibly

I'd then write out that someone is doing the opposite of the belief. "Someone is using an extrodinary device irresponsibly." (I had a harder time doing this with the other given beliefs but you probably understand them better than I do, plus Xefas and Carpe already talked along those lines.) You might personify a concept such as the "secrets" one by saying something "Someone is furthering their secret plan by publically burning books to keep people stupid".


Combine the "someones" across the different player characters beliefs. The guy who's being irresponsible here is the same someone who is holding the thieves guild in his pocket from another character's belief. Condense these concepts to a few key characters.

Does an existing NPC match the description of this person? Incorporate those sins into the character. If a character has an enemy ensure that person is included in the mix.

With a few characters like this make their plans interact with each other and other NPCs, relationship characters and PCs. Maybe organisations too if they've been bought in.

When one of these characters is disturbed it can upset the balance of the others and bring in one of the other antagonist characters who challenges other beliefs. Failure complications and compromises are great for this.

Incorpoate your own priorities into this here. The big picture stuff. Your own ideas of what'd be cool to see in the game. You hang it on the frame we've just built.

Are you guys up for PVP? This is the point where I'd consider this. If you want you can give beliefs to an antagonist that directly align with those of another PC. That way players will be conflicted on whether to control or stop this particular antagonist. If that's not part of your big picture campaign concept then don't worry about it. I like it but it doesn't have to be the focus.

Don't plan out how it'll resolve. In fact if you find yourself thinking "There's no way this stuff can be worked out with like civilised people!" then you're on the right track. (This took me a long time to get as I personally believe that people can talk through most of their problems but we don't want that in this game.)

After prepping your situation then how it plays out next is the plot. Your priorities are tied into the player's priorities and so you're all pointed in a collaborative direction when you challenge the players.

[obliged_salmon]

These guys have the right of it.

My thoughts:

The beliefs in question could use some refinement, along the lines already suggested.

"Find a way to replicate the white box and bring it into the world"

Sounds like a long-term thing. What's an action item that the character can pursue and expect to accomplish in the next session? Find a scholar who has studied the white box? Find materials that would let him replicate it? Etc. Add this item as an addendum to the belief. When that item is accomplished, mark a persona point at session end and change the item, keeping the long-term goal.

Alternately, if the player is digging into your meta-plot, have him rewrite this belief so it ties in with what his character is actually doing. If he's reluctant to change it, tell him that it's dragging him down at present, keeping him from getting fate and persona points. He can always come back to it later. The goal belief should always relate to what the character does when you as GM ask "What are you doing?" The player should be able to look down at his sheet, find the belief, and give his answer based entirely on what he reads there.

"Knowledge is power: no information is too dangerous to be kept secret."

This one's pretty good as a sort of "personal ethic" belief. A character should have one of those that typically informs the way he/she goes about accomplishing other goals. Like, "Punching my problems makes them go away," or "A smile is the best distraction." This particular one is kind of passive though, suggesting that the character will hoard his knowledge, rather than actively use it. Maybe try something more like "Knowledge is power: I'll take the knowledge that others possess and use it to further my ends." Not as punchy, but a little more active. Experiment with it?

"Extraordinary powers and devices make the world a better place when used responsibly."

Honestly, I'd suggest he scrap this one and change it to something that ties directly into another character's beliefs. Frequently what happens in BW play is that one character's belief gets the focus for large swaths of the session, and the other characters help out (or hinder) as appropriate. So, it's nice to have a belief in play about other characters, so that you get fate points even if your own goals aren't touched that session. For instance, "I owe Johnny a lot of money. I'll help him recover his father's sword and see if he'll let me off the hook."

As to the use of a plot/narrative, I've found that typically the GM doesn't need to have one. I mean, you want a situation, and "STUFF" that will happen unless the characters intervene, but it's best to lay all of it, even the "secret" stuff, on the table at the beginning and let the players build their beliefs from what's available in the setting. For example, I ran a Game of Thrones campaign set during the Baratheon Rebellion. Everybody had ready the books, and knew exactly what was going on, and what would happen if they sat around and twiddled their thumbs. They wrote beliefs about how they would fit into the situation, and ended up killing Robert, among a number of other fun changes.

Cheers, and happy Burning.