BECMI & OSRIC: Old Editions for Newbs

[Vortalism]

Hey guys,

As a 3rd Edition kid I was very encapsulated in the whole d20 system and tinkering with the OGL content for all kinds of games in the past, but recently I've been trying out other systems particularly some of the White Wolf games (V:tM), GURPS, and eventually some 4e. I was just wondering for a person who's started D&D in 3e and 3.5 how do you get into AD&D? I've often heard of OSRIC and BECMI spouted around forums and such but I haven't really explored them much. So what do you guys say would be the best way to jump into older editions (AD&D 1e, Basic etc.)?

[Thrudd]

Look on ebay or a used book store for the old books (players handbook, DMG and monster manual for 1e AD&D), read them and get some people to play with you. It won't be too hard to transition from 3e to AD&D, conceptually. Alternatively, get one of the retro-clone games that are basically AD&D or BECMI with a few tweaks, some of which can be purchased fairly cheaply in pdf format.

[erikun]

You might also be interested in looking at a few "retro-clones", or systems intentionally designed to play similar to older versions of D&D. Not only because some have similarities to some D&D3e mechanics, but also because some of them are available for free. :smallwink:

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15395091) is a thread about some retroclones, with links to several in the second post.

[Grac]

I suggest two things:
First is the Rules Cyclopedia (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/17171/D%26D-Rules-Cyclopedia-%28Basic%29?it=1). It is a wonderful one-volume tome of BECMI (without the I) goodness, and is one of the most complete RPG's you will ever come across.

Similar and related to it, being a kinda 'modernisation' of BECMI with a lot cleaned up, is Adventurer, Conqueror, King (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/99123/Adventurer-Conqueror-King-System).

Both of those are $10 for the pdf and well worth the price.

[Vortalism]

Thanks guys.

One question. I've checked out OSRIC and some Labyrinth Lord first to get a taste of AD&D and Basic, while they're both very similar to 3.5 conceptually, one thing is bugging me the most.

What's up with the barebones classes?

[Thrudd]

Thanks guys.

One question. I've checked out OSRIC and some Labyrinth Lord first to get a taste of AD&D and Basic, while they're both very similar to 3.5 conceptually, one thing is bugging me the most.

What's up with the barebones classes?

What else do you need? That's how D&D started. 3e was the result of 20 years of evolution through different playstyles. Basic D&D started out assuming you roll up characters, slap a name on them, and send them into a random dungeon to find treasure, all in one night. Maybe your characters don't live long, and you roll up some more and try again. The 3e mindset has tended towards: you create a character concept, write up a background and history for this person, look through 10-15 different books for just the right mix of classes and prestige classes and feats and skills to represent how you want this character to evolve over the course of the assumed 20 levels of play. You might spend a couple nights just doing this before you even get to the actual game, and once you do everyone is invested to the hilt in roleplaying their character, and the DM has crafted a complex and immersive world for you to interact with, and a narrative filled with heroic exploits.
In Basic, the DM has crafted a maze populated by monsters and traps and treasure for you to problem solve, using the toolkit provided by the four classes you have access to. Your success is determined by whether your characters can recover treasure and escape from the maze. AD&D evolved much more complexity, and started the trend toward an immersive world that the modern RPG's mostly take as a given. But it was still very heavy on dungeon crawling, and everything not related to that was mostly left to roleplaying rather than rules and dice. By the time 2ed AD&D had been around for a few years (the early/mid 90's), rules and options started being developed that looked and felt a lot more like 3e.

[BWR]

Seconding picking up the Rules Cyclopedia. I fell in love with it when we first bought it. I still pull it out and read through it every now and then. Most recently last night.
The sheer amount of information for every conceivable thing they stuffed into one easy book is amazing.

[Premier]

My advice is you shouldn't sweat the question of which book to read first. Read whatever's free - Labyrinth Lord, Sword & Wizardry, OSRIC. Once you've read one and understand the basic concepts, you're good to go with all the others, too.

What matters more is to find a group and start actually playing. The real difference between old school D&D and WotC editions is not in the actual mechanics, but in the assumptions about how the game is played - and the only way to really get a feel for those is by playing.

[Legend]

My advice is you shouldn't sweat the question of which book to read first. Read whatever's free - Labyrinth Lord, Sword & Wizardry, OSRIC. Once you've read one and understand the basic concepts, you're good to go with all the others, too. I agree that it doesn't matter which retroclone you start with, but I would suggest that before you try to find a game, familiarize yourself with the different editions/variations that existed. This is a decent visual representation. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons#Time_line) (Note how the game forks into two parallel lines in 1977 and stays that way until 3rd Edition.) Anyway, I think it'd help to know what the clone you're looking at is trying to clone.


What matters more is to find a group and start actually playing. The real difference between old school D&D and WotC editions is not in the actual mechanics, but in the assumptions about how the game is played - and the only way to really get a feel for those is by playing.Truth. That's getting harder and harder to come by as fewer people who learned under those assumptions are still playing (and many aren't as faithful to those assumptions as they once were, not that that's necessarily a bad thing, it just is). But yeah, find a group actually playing, get the relevant text and give it read, and give it a try with an open mind.

[Matthew]

What's up with the barebones classes?

Basically there are designed for you to put your print on the character, and not worry about having the rules define them for you (that came later). Robust and simple archetypes make it very easy to "pick up and play", which was one of the things that facilitated mainstream popularity. These days I do not have a lot of time for many fiddly rules and point calculations, so it suits me, but you will definitely feel the lack if you enjoy "building" characters.

[Vortalism]

Thanks for all the replies guys.

I downloaded some Basic Fantasy, and found that it was really cool taking some parts of modern gaming (ascending AC) that I liked and mixing it up old school style. As for the barebones classes, I'm beginning to see what you mean, I read through some of their adventures and find that it's heavily centred around dungeoneering (which isn't that bad).

Fortunately for me handling dungeons is right up my alley. :smallamused:

[hamlet]

You should also give the free download of Swords and Wizardry a whirl (if it's even still available out there). Great game based on, mostly, the old Little Brown Book version of D&D from way back in the day with lots of later stuff added back in. Essentially, it's the version of D&D that Gary Gygax himself was playing up until the end according to our best evidence (Gary never really played AD&D himself, he played little brown book version with later supplementary material thrown in).

And I third (fourth?) the recommendation for Rules Cyclopedia. Frankly, if I could only have one RPG book ever again, it'd be that book. There's just a phenomenal wealth of stuff there to mine for ideas and fun.

If you're looking for a group, depending on where you are, I recommend utilizing Meetup or a like tool. Also, while in person pen and paper games might not be as common place as they used to be, online games can and do work well for old school gaming. Tends to be a little easier, too, since there's less focus on getting minis moving around on the board accurately.

[Joe the Rat]

Thanks for all the replies guys.

I downloaded some Basic Fantasy, and found that it was really cool taking some parts of modern gaming (ascending AC) that I liked and mixing it up old school style. As for the barebones classes, I'm beginning to see what you mean, I read through some of their adventures and find that it's heavily centred around dungeoneering (which isn't that bad).

Fortunately for me handling dungeons is right up my alley. :smallamused:
BFRPG? That's probably the easiest step as it's built from the 3.5 chassis. There's plenty of folks there happy to answer system-specific (and "old school gaming") questions. But beware of that one guy with the eyepatch - he's kind of crazy.

[SiuiS]

On top of all this, is actually suggest some research! There's a blog i found, semper initiativus unum, that was nice. I suggest starting at the latest page and reading backwards; the very beginnin lacks the insight and charm, but as you move back you should get a good look at the feeling, the wants, and the assumptions of older gaming set ups.

I was able to find OD&D – the one that says "this is a CHAINMAIL hack and you need the CHAINMAIL rules" for free online (not piracy, just siting there!), and have also found links for most of BECMI (I was mostly interested in I, e cause the Immortals rules are the only ones I've never held in my own hooves!). It's a matter of looking, I think. But labyrinth lord, swords and wizardry, OSRIC and (currently my favorite) ADventurer Conquerer King are all good. That last especially.


Thanks guys.

One question. I've checked out OSRIC and some Labyrinth Lord first to get a taste of AD&D and Basic, while they're both very similar to 3.5 conceptually, one thing is bugging me the most.

What's up with the barebones classes?

Conversely, what's up with all this fidly detail in the complex classes? :smallwink:

AD&D you can actually gette books for fairly easily, and I suggest trying to get some together and doing a bash through. Even as a lark, it's a fun activity just puzzling through how old folks did things. All it takes is time and willingness, because again, the data is out there free and easy, no downloads or torrents or nothin', just fans who threw stuff online.


Basically there are designed for you to put your print on the character, and not worry about having the rules define them for you (that came later). Robust and simple archetypes make it very easy to "pick up and play", which was one of the things that facilitated mainstream popularity. These days I do not have a lot of time for many fiddly rules and point calculations, so it suits me, but you will definitely feel the lack if you enjoy "building" characters.

Aye. Building characters is fun, and you dot quite get that in older sets the same way.


You should also give the free download of Swords and Wizardry a whirl (if it's even still available out there). Great game based on, mostly, the old Little Brown Book version of D&D from way back in the day with lots of later stuff added back in. Essentially, it's the version of D&D that Gary Gygax himself was playing up until the end according to our best evidence (Gary never really played AD&D himself, he played little brown book version with later supplementary material thrown in).

Oh really? I didn't know it was an OD&D clone, I'll have to acquire it. The actual little brown book rules are fun to read but not complete in lay-out. Modern printing stuff has spoiled me.



And I third (fourth?) the recommendation for Rules Cyclopedia. Frankly, if I could only have one RPG book ever again, it'd be that book. There's just a phenomenal wealth of stuff there to mine for ideas and fun.

Going to have to agree. There's lots of misleading and contradictory info out there about Mentzer this and Moldvay that and what's a Holmes, but the simple truth is thy whenever I read through a D&D book and bristled with joy and wonder? It was one of the books they put in the rules cyclopedia.

[thirdkingdom]

The Rules Cyclopedia is out of print (unless WOTC has started offering the .pdf for sale) and fairly expensive used. You can find a free retro-clone of it here (http://www.gratisgames.webspace.virginmedia.com/darkdungeons.html), with a little bit thrown in about Immortality and airships.

[Matthew]

They have, indeed:

http://www.dndclassics.com/images/44/17171-thumb140.jpg (http://www.dndclassics.com/product/17171/)

[Rhynn]

All about retroclones in the links in my sig.

I prefer ACKS over everything else, but most of them are pretty boss. You might be able to find the Rules Cyclopedia (BECM) somewhere, too, and that is also pretty boss.

[Elana]

As everyone is talking about it, I just want to add a quick extra vote for the rules cyclopedia.

That book is just awesome.

You get all the rules you need for the characters
Everything about running your own kingdoms
Rules for mass combat
Tons of monsters
maps...

Somehow they managed to get more content into this one book than any edition afterwards put into their corebooks

[obryn]

The Rules Cyclopedia is out of print (unless WOTC has started offering the .pdf for sale) and fairly expensive used. You can find a free retro-clone of it here (http://www.gratisgames.webspace.virginmedia.com/darkdungeons.html), with a little bit thrown in about Immortality and airships.
Dark Dungeons is, far and away, my favorite BECMI/RC retro-clone. It's not 100% true to the original source material - a lot of the classes are, frankly, fixed a bit - but it's 100% compatible with all the adventures and supplements.

I somehow got my Rules Cyclopedia for $4 off Amazon, with prime shipping. I don't think the seller knew what they had. :smallbiggrin:

-O

[DaTamarin]

{scrubbed}

[kyoryu]

You can also get pretty much all of the Basic/Expert stuff over at DnDClassics.

http://www.dndclassics.com/index.php

Unfortunately, they don't have 1/2e DMG/PHB/etc. available.

I'd probably avoid advocating downloads of scanned books, as that's a copyright violation, and I'm pretty sure is against board rules.

[SiuiS]

Not a download; many places put the rules up as a web thingy, for whatever reason. It's much closer to finding a political poster than to asking someone about their political views.

[Roland St. Jude]

Not a download; many places put the rules up as a web thingy, for whatever reason. It's much closer to finding a political poster than to asking someone about their political views.Sheriff: This makes no sense. Telling someone where they can purchase the book, in paper or pdf, is fine. Assisting or advocating downloading (or viewing webpages) texts reproduced in violation of copyright is not fine. Whatever you intend, the earlier post did just that.

[SiuiS]

Fair enough. I think it makes sense, but the red text means that it doesn't matter :smallwink: