Int Modifier /= New Languages

[Alaris]

Alright, so I'm running a game for a friend of mine (Pathfinder), and I've run into a little bit of an issue.

My player rolled fantastic stats, rolled very well in Central Casting, and chose a race (Half-Elf)/template (Fey) that left his Intelligence Modifier at +7. This means that he knows Common, Elven, Sylvan, 7 other languages, and whatever else he would pick up for the points he has to put into Linguistics (to qualify for Lyrist).

So umm... I do not think it's very realistic (I know, fantasy game) for a character to know 10 or more languages fluently. That seems just absurd to me. As far as I'm concerned, Intelligence Modifier should not equal bonus languages. You should have to study for them (Linguistics Skill).

Now, my player already had a ton of languages picked out, and was gung-ho for this character... so I don't want to just tell him that he doesn't get ANY languages, or anything like that. But I do want to compensate him for it in a way that does not just involve giving him 7 additional skill points.

So I look to you, the Playground, for ideas. It would be much appreciated if you guys could assist in this endeavor.

Thank you kindly.

[Waker]

Learning a large amount of languages wouldn't be too hard compared to some of the other things that characters are capable of in RPGs. Not to mention that learning a language is far easier if you've already studied one with similar roots, so I wouldn't have any issue with a character fluent in Dwarvish picking up Gnomish. (I think those two are related, can't bother to dig up the book.)

[Trinoya]

Well... I personally think, in my totally not bias opinion, that you should let him have his absurd number of languages. :smallwink:

[Morcleon]

Considering that an 18 (+4) would be considered almost at the maximum of RL human capacity, a 24 should easily allow him to learn 7 extra languages. Besides, this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyglot_(person)#Notable_living_polyglots). :smallbiggrin:

[Alaris]

Learning a large amount of languages wouldn't be too hard compared to some of the other things that characters are capable of in RPGs. Not to mention that learning a language is far easier if you've already studied one with similar roots, so I wouldn't have any issue with a character fluent in Dwarvish picking up Gnomish. (I think those two are related, can't bother to dig up the book.)

I could understand similar languages perhaps... but I find it hard to believe that someone who is simply naturally gifted in Intelligence could pick up these languages without any effort.

I don't want him to just know the absurd number of languages. My opinion naturally, and I'm hoping to find a solution that won't completely ruin the character or anything like that.


Well... I personally think, in my totally not bias opinion, that you should let him have his absurd number of languages. :smallwink:

YOU would, Player! You would...

[Trinoya]

I have no clue what you're talking about. ^____^;;

[Lightlawbliss]

what's wrong with knowing 10 languages? when you start using similar languages (American English and Queens English being the first to come to mind), 10 languages isn't really that many. I know missionaries to places in Asia and Africa that are "fluent" in a lot of languages. 10 really isn't that many.

World Record is WAY over 10! (http://sciencefocus.com/qa/what-record-most-languages-spoken-one-person)

Edit: to clarify, I am using fluent as able to function fine with most common interactions.

[Razanir]

Learning a large amount of languages wouldn't be too hard compared to some of the other things that characters are capable of in RPGs. Not to mention that learning a language is far easier if you've already studied one with similar roots, so I wouldn't have any issue with a character fluent in Dwarvish picking up Gnomish. (I think those two are related, can't bother to dig up the book.)

I can attest that languages can become easier to pick up. I know some German, so I can understand some Yiddish (as long as it's transliterated). I also know some Latin, and have been able to pick out derivatives in English and Italian.

[Morcleon]

I could understand similar languages perhaps... but I find it hard to believe that someone who is simply naturally gifted in Intelligence could pick up these languages without any effort.

I don't want him to just know the absurd number of languages. My opinion naturally, and I'm hoping to find a solution that won't completely ruin the character or anything like that.

Think about it this way: he lives in a world where people consider being able to break the laws of physics a fairly common occurrence. Why shouldn't he be able to know seven languages? :smallwink:

[Mnemnosyne]

High intelligence implies that you know a lot of things. That's kind of what intelligence is, at least in part - the sum total of your knowledge. Sure, Int gives bonuses to knowledge skills, and to skills in general, but it also gives additional languages, and that makes sense.

Not to mention considering how meaningless languages usually are in D&D, how easy it is to bypass the need for them, and other similar issues, there's absolutely no reason to unreasonably restrict these languages, especially when you're dealing with a character with greater intelligence than any real human is actually capable of, period. Knowing a lot of languages is of minimal use, and it gives a very nice roleplaying bonus. It's free with high int because the designers know that by and large, learning more languages is simply not worth expending actual character resources like skill points.

[Alaris]

Considering that an 18 (+4) would be considered almost at the maximum of RL human capacity, a 24 should easily allow him to learn 7 extra languages. Besides, this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyglot_(person)#Notable_living_polyglots). :smallbiggrin:

Well, there's also my counterargument... I don't want everybody with an Int above 10 to know several languages. Not everybody who's above average devotes their time to that. So I guess I'm also looking for a solution for other games like this.

Maybe offering an alternative to languages... I dunno.


what's wrong with knowing 10 languages? when you start using similar languages (American English and Queens English being the first to come to mind), 10 languages isn't really that many. I know missionaries to places in Asia and Africa that are fluent in a lot of languages. 10 really isn't that many.

World Record is WAY over 10! (http://sciencefocus.com/qa/what-record-most-languages-spoken-one-person)


I can attest that languages can become easier to pick up. I know some German, so I can understand some Yiddish (as long as it's transliterated). I also know some Latin, and have been able to pick out derivatives in English and Italian.

I dunno... just doesn't seem like a character should be able to do everything. It's just me. I might allow it to slide, but I'm looking for alternatives. Recommendations would be cool.

[Trinoya]

On behalf of my DM here, I do believe he is looking for alternatives, if anyone can offer something up to him, I'm sure he'd appreciate it. ^_^

(To that end, if anyone wants to help ME in my arguments against him, you should totally tell him he should let me have druidic if I spend the skill points ^_^;;)

[Lightlawbliss]

...
I dunno... just doesn't seem like a character should be able to do everything. It's just me. I might allow it to slide, but I'm looking for alternatives. Recommendations would be cool.

Do everything? Most charcter over 10 int are +1 or +2. There are places IRL where having a working proficiency with 2 or 3 (or more)languages is common coming out of middle school if not before.

[Waker]

Well, if it's just alternatives to extra languages, you might consider giving a character with a positive intelligence bonus some skill bonuses/synergy or skill tricks. Say a character's intelligence is directed to logic and so they tend to be better at understanding how things work, giving them a bonus on Knowledge (Architecture) and Disable Device, but denying them extra languages for their high intelligence.

[Berenger]

Ten languages are not even close to the "maximum" of a regular human, let alone a super-genius with a much longer life span available to learn.



Maybe offering an alternative to languages... I dunno.
Trade unwanted bonus languages 1:1 for additional skill points spendable only for Knowledge (whatever)?

[Lightlawbliss]

...
(To that end, if anyone wants to help ME in my arguments against him, you should totally tell him he should let me have druidic if I spend the skill points ^_^;;)

For a non-druid to learn druidic would require a means to learn it. A druid teaching you ain't going to happen (IMO) without some way to make them a FANATIC and even then not likely. Personally, I might allow it in one of my games if you come up with a good way to learn it from eavesdropping on druids talking or something similar. Some book having it in a condition you could learn the language from... IF copies of it exists they would be somewhere "only druids could get".

[Lord Vukodlak]

Tongues; 4th level I speak all languages
Comprehend Langugaes: 1st level: I can read all languages.

What's the problem with high intelligence again?

[Alaris]

Well, if it's just alternatives to extra languages, you might consider giving a character with a positive intelligence bonus some skill bonuses/synergy or skill tricks. Say a character's intelligence is directed to logic and so they tend to be better at understanding how things work, giving them a bonus on Knowledge (Architecture) and Disable Device, but denying them extra languages for their high intelligence.


Ten languages are not even close to the "maximum" of a regular human, let alone a super-genius with a much longer life span available to learn.

Trade unwanted bonus languages 1:1 for additional skill points spendable only for Knowledge (whatever)?

Alright, I'd like to thank you both for actually providing alternatives, rather than just criticizing my decision to offer an alternative to Language-palooza. I really do appreciate it.

For anyone else that wishes to make recommendations, I will continue to keep the thread open, and an eye on it. These ideas have been pretty good so far.

[lsfreak]

Just to reiterate, there are areas of the world that people usually know 3-5 languages: their native language, the language of one or a few adjacent peoples, and a lingua franca (or often, a regional lingua franca plus a supraregional (often European) lingua franca). The Sudan and some areas of India are what come to mind, but I'm sure I've read of similar situations in Mesoamerica, the Amazon, and the Caucasus region, and less certainly New Guinea, West Africa, and western Siberia. And keep in mind, these also usually cross at least one language family. And these are just everyday schmucks, no special education or anything.

I second the additional skill points, potentially in Knowledge skills.

[DogbertLinc]

24 Strength gives you a light load of 233lb, maximum of 700 and can drag 3500lb.

Knowing 7 languages is pretty minor in comparison.

Also, considering 16 is really smart for real world logic and most of the cited "people who know >10 languages" probably fall into that range, that absolutely super human 24 can probably learn a new language into fluency in a month or something.


It is honestly one of the most minor "problems" you could ever get attached to.

Source: I'm a ****ing moron and I can speak 3 languages or so, by having put minimal effort into it.

[SarahV]

It doesn't seem so crazy to me... my grandma knew 8 languages by the time she was in her 20s, I believe. German, French, Latin, Greek, Hebrew, Yiddish, English... and I can't remember the 8th. Polish maybe? They lived near the Polish border, IIRC. Anyway, if she can do that with the resources available to a Jewish woman in Germany in the 20s-30s, I don't see why a way-past-superhuman-intelligence-level individual with a special interest/talent in linguistics couldn't learn 10 or 12.

Maybe you could require some backstory reasons for why they know each language, so it doesn't seem quite so outlandish. Or charge two points for anything without believable backstory reasons, or for languages that are more unlikely/difficult for a person with that background to come across.

[zlefin]

Well, as a question of fact, it is realistic for a person to be able to speak 10 languages.
I think giving 7 skill points is probably best if you're going to remove the languages, since it's clearly an equivalent value.
If you don't want to do that, you could give him a feat plus a bit instead, or 3 traits, those would be similar in value.

You can also make an issue of how WELL he knows the languages. And make it that he knows them passably well to converse on basic discourse in, but wouldn't be able to follow an academic discussion; and might miss a lot of idioms and such.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

How about just making your int bonus give X5-6 skill points at level 1 instead of X4 and let them spend those extra skill points on languages if they wish.

As an aside Central Casting is a silly place. I once started with a concept for a redneck mechanical genius and ended up as the Native American Tony Stark with a personal worth in the billions.

[lycantrope]

24 int is similar to having an off the scales 240 iq. I feel the alternatives have the potential to be more game breaking than just knowing the languages.

[ericgrau]

It seems hard for us now since we're immersed in a single language. But a long time ago it was not uncommon for even someone of average intelligence to know multiple. A high intelligence picking up several languages is not a stretch at all. The key is to be exposed to them at a young age when it is much easier. After all I doubt you ever studied English as a 2nd language. If there simply aren't that many societies around it would be reasonable to cap the bonus languages to the number of surrounding languages.

[Raven777]

As far as the Linguistics skill is concerned, each +1 modifier to its keyed attribute does exactly the same thing as one additional skill rank. All the skills in the game work this way (Acrobatics -> +1 Dex = +1 Rank). Therefore, I do not see the problem with Int modifiers translating directly to languages.

Especially since most average people I know irl (Int 10-11) know at least 2 languages (French and English) right out of high school, and many world famous philosophers / diplomats / artists / scientists (Int 16-18) know 5-6-7+ languages.

[Thrudd]

Who cares? Is the character realistically ever going to be able to use even half of those languages in the game? And how the heck did he get INT that high in the first place? As long as the language choices make sense, as something the character could conceivably have studied during his lifetime, then let him have them. The alternative would be to house rule that there are no bonus languages for Int modifier, and require any beyond those awarded by race to be bought with the Languages skill. As long as it's decided before the game starts and the character is finalized, that shouldn't be an issue.

What's wrong with having a PC trained as an interpreter? He could be like the party's own protocol droid. But if it would break your idea for the campaign, then house-rule away.

[ZamielVanWeber]

How about just making your int bonus give X5-6 skill points at level 1 instead of X4 and let them spend those extra skill points on languages if they wish.

The trade off there being that, depending on where you put that marker, you either charge them extra for languages or hand them points.

Now, to be fair here Alaris, people are criticizing your decision because it was based off of wrong assumptions. In addition, aside from simply handing him 7 skill points you are being unfair: you nerfed a character at creation for having too many bonus languages (because of gap in your knowledge).

The solution I see being closest to fair is to give the 7 experience back in 2 point installments (with a 1 at the end) over the course of 4 levels. Let the intelligence represent greater learning capacity. If they really want those 7 languages they can have them, but it would take more time.

[JusticeZero]

Historically, monolingualism is pretty freakish. Apparently, in the Middle Ages, not all that many of the people living in France knew French, because they used some other local language more often. So if you traveled much, you needed to pick up multiple languages. The only reason i'm not hitting people with this in my current game is that the setting is post-post-apocalyptic, and the preceding civilization had access to high speed transportation, and had colonized the entire accessible campaign area as a resource extraction area, with according historical genocidal mayhem.

[Fyermind]

Well, there's also my counterargument... I don't want everybody with an Int above 10 to know several languages. Not everybody who's above average devotes their time to that.


That depends on where in the world you are looking. Basically everybody (int above 10 or not) who grows up in central Africa speaks at least three languages. Most people who have grown up in a non-English speaking European country in the past few decades speaks both English and their native language. In fact speaking only 1 language is pretty much a English speaking tradition only.

[yougi]

While I disagree with the ruling, like you said, you're looking for alternatives and not criticism.

Yu could say that they get a bonus language for every 2 pts of int mod, or that learning to read/write and to speak/listen are two different things and they each cost a different "language known". However, if you do so, apply the same rule to every PC.

Or you could give them an XP bonus (more intelligent = faster learner), or a passive bonus to an Int based skill.

However, ask yourself if language will really come up that often that it will make a difference. I once made a huge subsystem for second language proficiency (because I'm an ESL teacher), and it literally never made a difference in an entire ten month campaign. You might be looking to solve a problem that iIsn't really one.

[Razanir]

(To that end, if anyone wants to help ME in my arguments against him, you should totally tell him he should let me have druidic if I spend the skill points ^_^;;)

Just make up a backstory about your grandpa who abandoned his druidic vows and taught the grandkiddies Druidic


24 int is similar to having an off the scales 240 iq. I feel the alternatives have the potential to be more game breaking than just knowing the languages.

180 IQ, actually. We did an analysis in another thread and determined 10 Int to be about 100 IQ and +/-1 Int to be about +/-5 IQ.


Historically, monolingualism is pretty freakish. Apparently, in the Middle Ages, not all that many of the people living in France knew French, because they used some other local language more often. So if you traveled much, you needed to pick up multiple languages. The only reason i'm not hitting people with this in my current game is that the setting is post-post-apocalyptic, and the preceding civilization had access to high speed transportation, and had colonized the entire accessible campaign area as a resource extraction area, with according historical genocidal mayhem.

Historically, people learned the local language and the lingua franca (typically Latin or French) AT A MINIMUM

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Alaris
I don't want everybody with an Int above 10 to know several languages.


Originally Posted by lsfreak
Just to reiterate, there are areas of the world that people usually know 3-5 languages: their native language, the language of one or a few adjacent peoples, and a lingua franca.... And these are just everyday schmucks, no special education or anything.

Just to elaborate on lsfreak's point--in some areas of West Africa it's completely normal for small children to speak four or five different languages, usually a selection of tribal languages plus Krio and/or French. This should apply anywhere you have several languages circulating in the same small region, especially when travel is limited and people often live most of their lives on a very local scale.

And these are people who, as lsfreak points out, are by definition of average intelligence, and often with very little formal education at all. On the scale of human cultures this isn't at all exceptional, and the fact that it seems so in the game context is more a reflection, once again, of the cultural assumptions of the game designers.

As one more example of a highly intelligent polyglot, I offer Heinrich Schliemann, the man who discovered the site of historical Troy, and who spoke upwards of twenty languages, which he learned through obsessively focused study. Russian, Turkish, Japanese, Classical Greek: self-taught in every one, and fluent enough to operate effectively in every country he wanted to.

So, as a dozen other people have already said, your player isn't really asking for all that much.


Originally Posted by Trinoya
To that end, if anyone wants to help ME in my arguments against him, you should totally tell him he should let me have druidic if I spend the skill points....

On this, however, I would put my foot down. Simply having the skill points doesn't get you Druidic, and as a longtime druid player I would say the only way to acquire the language is the traditional approach, a.k.a. becoming a druid.

Not sure if Trinoya was being serious about this point or not, but there's no way I'd allow it. I once had an argument with a player over this very point; he claimed that because he was a bard, he should be able to learn Druidic. Just because.

(After much discussion, he took Sylvan instead.)

[Fyermind]

Druidic could be learned by very careful usage of scrying spells by a linguist. Make it a major quest.

[Spuddles]

Well, there's also my counterargument... I don't want everybody with an Int above 10 to know several languages. Not everybody who's above average devotes their time to that. So I guess I'm also looking for a solution for other games like this.

I'm guessing you travel very little, live in a relatively culturally homogenized area, and make little effort to ever interact with immigrants.

Historically, many people spoke more than one language, especially in areas with many different cultures near by, not to mention that it takes relatively little effort to speak Italian, French, Spanish, Latin, and Portuguese once you learn one of them.

European scholars used to know 3 to 5 languages as a matter of course- latin and greek, their mother tongue, the lengua franca (english or french), and that of a neighboring region.

In Africa, it isn't uncommon for people to speak multiple languages, either, given the ethnic diversity and close proximity of the cultures.

Kind of like D&D, where you have elves, half orcs, humans, gnomes, dwarves, and halflings all living in the same settlement, while scholars study things written in celestial, abyssal, infernal, draconic, and druidic.

You'd be surprised at the ability of people to learn a language when forced to communicate with those who don't share a common tongue.

For a supergenius character that is already putting points in linguistics, it doesn't seem very far fetched that, in studying languages, they learned a whole bunch of languages.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Druidic could be learned by very careful usage of scrying spells by a linguist. Make it a major quest.

Evil campaigns that start above 9 everyone takes druidic because someone has "tortured a lot of druids" as part of their backstory.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There's a joke about this...

If you call a person who is fluent in three languages Trilingual and a person who is fluent in two languages Bilingual, then what do you call someone fluent in only one language? An American. :smallbiggrin:

Having said that, being a Texan, I speak English, Spanish, Latin, French, German, Italian, Polish, and a smattering of Korean, Japanese and Mandarin Chinese.

Of those, I am natively fluent in English and Spanish, educated in Latin (since it is effectively a dead language), and I knew enough French, German, Italian, and Polish to be able to galavant around Europe and speak the local lingo well enough to get by. I wouldn't consider myself fluent in the oriental languages, but I know enough to get the general idea of what is going on.

Now then, how I came about this linguistic ability is fairly simple: I grew up bilingual with Spanish due to living close enough to Mexico that we got enough immigrants that I picked it up growing up. Then I picked up Latin in High School. From there, most of the Romantic languages fell into place, French and Italian are almost incestuously close, so those came almost together. Did a tour in Germany, picked up Polish on the side. Picked up Korean while training in TKD, Japanese started off with an interest in anime and ended in college courses, and Mandarin Chinese was the following semester.

When you look at it like that, it isn't a very difficult achievement. Most of the languages were similar enough that once you pick one up, you can pick others up fairly quickly.

Quite frankly, for a Wizard (and what other class would need such a high Int score but an Int caster, of which Wizard is the most common) who is, by his very nature, a Scholar... seven languages does not sound unusual at all. Consider that a part of being a Wizard includes translating dusty old scrolls to try and find new spells to scribe into his spellbook. So it would certainly be what I would call a professional requirement to be a polyglot. The more languages you understand, the better the chance you can figure out what these dusty scrolls say.

[Alaris]

Alright, it's clear that I'm in the minority here in my opinion, so I will concede to the masses. I appreciate the LIMITED number of individuals that actually offered me alternatives, rather than simply stating (and restating) that I am uneducated, and that apparently people everywhere outside of my little town knows multiple languages.

I have decided (most likely) to go the route of making learning the Spoken Language & Written Language 2 different points. If the written language is in the same alphabet as another one you know, you will learn it as well upon learning the spoken language.

In concession, I am likely to also offer the player a few traits, so that it is not a total loss on his part.

Again, thank you for those who offered alternatives, it was much appreciated.

[Waspinator]

24 Int probably would make you in real life one of the smarter people to ever exist. A ton of languages isn't much of a stretch.

[JusticeZero]

Well, really the problem isn't that the character knows too many languages, it's that your campaign area has too few. They should be tripping over language difficulties on a regular basis as they travel, from the historical sense.

[PraxisVetli]

Quite frankly, for a Wizard (and what other class would need such a high Int score but an Int caster, of which Wizard is the most common) who is, by his very nature, a Scholar... seven languages does not sound unusual at all. Consider that a part of being a Wizard includes translating dusty old scrolls to try and find new spells to scribe into his spellbook. So it would certainly be what I would call a professional requirement to be a polyglot. The more languages you understand, the better the chance you can figure out what these dusty scrolls say.

I'm with this. I would just let them have it, and if it somehow does become a campaign-altering issue, just write everything in Ignan or something. Make is some ridiculously old language, the founding language of Draconic that they have to spend a reasonable amount of effort to learn. (which of course the general dragonkind isn't going to be too keen about)

[theIrkin]

i was a professional linguist in the military. after trying (and failing) to learn spanish in high school, i spent 2 years learning arabic. now i can speak arabic (and 3 dialects, which should rightfully be considered seperate languages). then while overseas, i picked up dhari, poshtu, and farsi, and at then i returned to spanish, picked up russian from dating a russian girl, and am now working on german. i'm 25 and this all started at 18 (15 if you count high school spanish). so in, at worst, 10 years, i've gone from proficiency in 1 language to proficiency (can hold a conversation, and in many language converse in depth) with 8 languages and 3+ dialects. and i'm at best an INT 16 (probably more like 13-14; don't tell me the average INT on this forum isn't above 10). if you grew up in a world where people rarely (if ever) speak less than two languages, a gifted polyglot should know every language on their home plane and then some.

/end drunken rant

[BWR]

Throwing my weight with the 'let him have the languages' crowd.
Polyglotism is far from uncommon, especially in areas where you don't have a large very powerful language dominating everything. The majority of the English natives being monolingual is unsual rather than the norm in human history.

But competancy does not equal mastery. The main issue I've had with the system in d20 is that unlike just about every other skill, languages are treated as an either/or situation. Either you can read/speak something perfectly or you are entirely incapable of understanding anything. This is just not how things work in real life. Saying you can speak English, does that mean you can easily follow Sir Humphrey's monologues? Is Shakespeare an open book? Is Chaucer an old hat? Or does it mean you can go grocery shopping and read street signs? There is a very long spectrum of competancy in language.
Some languages are easier to learn than others. Having spoken to Russian speakers they claim that English is a lot easier to learn bits and pieces that you can use while you learn more, while Russian takes a lot of knowledge to use at all, but once you have that knowledge you can do just about anything with it. And considering non-human languages, why should something like Draconic, spoken by immensely intelligent creatures with immensly long life-spans be easy enough for humans to pick up like it was Esperanto? shouldn't languages like that be difficult enough to require more time and effort to pick up?

Making a system that reflects this is too difficult and results in less fun play time. The way I handle it is every language apart from mother tongue that a character learns will have a noticable accent. They will be able to communicate, but with varying degrees of proficiency. With a language they do not use often or have recently learned there will grammatical mistakes will abound, certain words will be unfamiliar, syntax will be odd, etc.. Not enough that they can't communicate but enough that the finer points of poetry and wordplay are beyond them, and they will often need to spend a little extra time getting the point (across) than native speakers.
Also, the matter of dialects. If you learn Elven, you learn the dialect spoken by one particular group, with all the little peculiarities that come with it.

If you don't like people learning quite so many languages, you can adopt the old 3.x version of having 1 point be spoken and 1 point required for literacy, and apply that to bonus languages as well. One need merely look at languages like French or Irish (not to mention Chinese, Japanese, etc.) to realize that learning to read and write is not as straightforward as knowing what sound-signs to use.

You can also introduce language levels if you want to make things really complicated. A simple, 3 tier proficiency.
1. basic communication of physical states and simple desires (I'm hungry, I want to buy this, we need help with that). Many grammatical mistakes and some weird accent issues but udnerstandble with a little effort
2. Noticable accent, an odd mistake that persists no matter how they try, but perfectly comfortable reading and communicating in said language. Some advanced language can be difficult to understand, as well as archaicisms.
3. Your accent is pretty much what you wish it to be. Can emulate any accent fairly well, know many different dialects of said language, many roots of words and phrases and are familiar with the most important literature of said language.

You could also require multiple points for increasingly difficult languages. One of the main issues I've had is how entire planes of widely different creatures have one monolithic language, while tiny worlds with dozens of mostly similar creatures have dozens of different languages. Require languages like *shudder* Ignan, Terran, Infernal to be two or three times as difficult to learn as Common or Elven, just to reflect how big and difficult it is to learn properly. You can rationalize it away by saying they are umbrella terms for several different languages you need to be certain of communicating properly.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Just make up a backstory about your grandpa who abandoned his druidic vows and taught the grandkiddies Druidic

You must not be familiar with Central Casting. It's already been decreed that their grand pappy was a nearsighted half-elf that suffered from dwarfism that taught them to spontaneously cast light.

[shaikujin]

I would say the alternative would be to give him 1 skill point (that can be spent on any skill) for every bonus language. Basis is that since bonus languages are rather fixed and cannot be swapped with skill points, it should be worth less.



If that's overly harsh, or if you want to provide incentives for the player to actually to give up bonus languages, use 1 for 1.

Alternatively, allow these bonus skill points to exceed the ECL+3 cap. But that might be even more unbalancing to your campaign (might cause all your players to choose int based classes for example).

[Jon_Dahl]

Bonus languages for high intelligence is one of those rules that annoy me. And a lot. I always houserule it away. Instead, I permit Skill Focus (Speak Languages) to bestow the ability to speak two languages fluently and one poorly (Tarzan speech is enforced).

[Razanir]

Saying you can speak English, does that mean you can easily follow Sir Humphrey's monologues? Is Shakespeare an open book? Is Chaucer an old hat? Or does it mean you can go grocery shopping and read street signs? There is a very long spectrum of competancy in language.

Yes. I, at least, am capable of reading Shakespeare as plain as if it were Modern English. I actually blew through Taming of the Shrew a few months ago when I read it for school. :smalltongue:

[Elricaltovilla]

I have a semi related question:

Let's say you have a Half-Orc, Dwarf, Gnome, or other race with a limited number of bonus languages they can know at the start of the game. If they have a +7 int bonus, should they get anything extra for the bonus languages they (according to the rules) should get, but can't because there aren't any more bonus languages on their list?

[Rebel7284]

Skill tricks do indeed seem like a fair tradeoff.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would let them trade a language for an Int based skill that they can now use untrained. Let him pick up some crafts, maybe a few knowledges this way. It shows a character who has used their time and int training without real effort to master the skill.

EDIT - clarity edit

[Razanir]

I would let them trade a language for an Int based skill that they can now use untrained. Let him pick up some crafts, maybe a few knowledges this way. It shows a character who has used their time and int training or even real effort to master the skill.

That... Okay, that's actually a very fair houserule. Change the rule about languages to be a language OR Int-based skill untrained. This could also apply to spending points Linguistics, but I'm more hesitant to allow that. But yeah, I might just borrow that houserule.

[Trinoya]

You must not be familiar with Central Casting. It's already been decreed that their grand pappy was a nearsighted half-elf that suffered from dwarfism that taught them to spontaneously cast light.

You forgot descended from the avatar of a god, while founding a new religion, while being born on another plane, that became a new plane, in the temple of an evil god, who became a good god, who has an unusually strong attachment to kittens, on a friday, but not before I grew fangs, and subsequently got purple hair.

Every other wednesday that is.



Central Casting. It's the (X_x) best.

[BWR]

Yes. I, at least, am capable of reading Shakespeare as plain as if it were Modern English. I actually blew through Taming of the Shrew a few months ago when I read it for school. :smalltongue:

So am I. That's not the point. The point was not every English speaker is capable of doing that, especially if English is a second language. Being able to have simple conversations in a language is not the same as reading Shakespeare or James Joyce.