FYI premium MIC does NOT include errata

[TentacleSurpris]

I just opened my Premium MIC to page 68 and found, disappointingly, that the amber amulet of vermin has an entry for a huge monstrous scorpion. Of course it should be large, as per the errata file. The gp values of the runestaffs are not corrected. The wizards website promises errata. Another lazy wotc cop-out.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/35magic

Just so you know.

[Deophaun]

My understanding is the errata is just tacked on the back. You know, because having to edit and reformat the actual book would get in the way of more money.

[Psyren]

Ha, and people wonder why I've switched wholesale to PF. For all the slams against Paizo, they actually mainline their errata in subsequent printings.

[TentacleSurpris]

There is no errata tacked into or onto the back.

You'll have to download the errata.

And while you're on your computer, you'll also have to choose whether to support a company that breaks its promises, or use your computer to just click 4 more times and obtain the book used or through other means.

[Psyren]

There is no errata tacked into or onto the back.

You'll have to download the errata.

LOL. Wow.

I'm sorry you got ripped off, man :smallfrown:

[TypoNinja]

First thought: What exactly does it contain to justify the premium title then?

[Psyren]

First thought: What exactly does it contain to justify the premium title then?

The new cover looks nice :smalltongue:

[animewatcha]

Translation of premiums.. We are trying to make what money we can offa 3.5 even though we shoulda done better to convince Hasbro to not make us jump ship to 4th.

[Deophaun]

There is no errata tacked into or onto the back.

You'll have to download the errata.
Obviously that will be fixed through errata.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by TentacleSurpris
There is no errata tacked into or onto the back.

You'll have to download the errata.

I know this is pretty disappointing to you--and I'm more than a little disappointed as well. For months now I've been saving pennies (seriously) in hopes of getting the Premium Spell Compendium and/or the MIC.

From what you've said, it sounds like WotC did pretty much no work on these whatsoever. Given that I've been increasingly intrigued by Pathfinder here lately, you've helped me make up my mind. Those pennies are going to Paizo.

[Thurbane]

That's...disappointing.

Oh well, I've pretty much got all the 3.5 material I need. At least us 3.X fans got a better run than the 4E fans did.

[Larkas]

:smallsigh: These "premium" reprints had one main advantage to them: they sent the old books' prices plummeting. You couldn't find a SpC before they were announced for less than 55 bucks.

[Segev]

I am frequently amazed by how much PF puts out in their SRD and into their books that is remarkably similar to D&D 3.5 non-SRD material. I wonder how they get away with it, and if an enterprising individual might be able to make a 3rd party book of magic items and book of spells that are remarkably good at covering the same territory without violating IP law.

[Psyren]

It's quite possible to skirt the line - check out Radiance House's Occultist class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/radiance-house/occultist) (a 3rd-party, OGL, PF version of the ToM Binder) to see a great example of how close you can get to updating closed content while staying in the safe zone.

Unfortunately, precise tips on how to skirt said line would fall under the category of legal advice, which forum rules prohibit here.

[Segev]

Interesting. Thanks!

[Agincourt]

I just checked my new copy of Magic Item Compendium and was disappointed to see that TentacleSurpris is indeed correct. My copy does not have errata either.

I still would have bought a copy since I need one. However, it would not have cost Hasbro very much money to include the errata, especially considering a lot of this errata is just substituting price X with price Y.

[Cybris75]

I, too, can confirm that the Premium MIC does not contain the promised errata. Needless to say, I am very disappointed.

The Premium SC does contain errata, however.

[Deophaun]

Might I suggest those of you with the books review it on Amazon.com, and let people know that the cake errata is a lie?

[Cybris75]

Might I suggest those of you with the books review it on Amazon.com, and let people know that the cake errata is a lie?

Good idea; I just put up short reviews on Amazon.de and Amazon.com.

Edit: My comment is not yet visible on amazon.com. On amazon.de I can see both(!) of my reviews, one in German, one in English.

Edit2: Now visible on amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0786964499

[BowStreetRunner]

Might I suggest those of you with the books review it on Amazon.com, and let people know that the cake errata is a lie?

And those who have not bought the book, you might want to go out and vote for those reviews that mention the lack of errata, so those will show up before any that fail to mention it.

[Drelua]

Wow, now I'm even happier that I cancelled my MIC pre-order on Amazon after I picked up a Spell Compendium for 20 bucks at the game store the next town over last month. I got the Miniatures Handbook, PHB II, MM IV, and Tome of Battle too for the same price. Okay, now I'm just bragging...

[OracleofWuffing]

Well, you see, the reprinted "errors" are actually further errata, we decided the corrections we made weren't right in the first place.:smalltongue:

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, I can't say I'm much surprised. As a veteran of the TSR days, I was a bit of a fan of the early 3e stuff. Showed lots of promise, as WotC clearly had set a bit of a bar in terms of a coherent system that was more accessible and less confusing than the arcane ways of 2e.

Sadly, WotC has since consistently moved it's own bar. And not in the right direction. Good ideas are one thing, and some decent development and material was put out. But from casually pricing themselves out of their customer base, to nonexistent proof-reading evident in some of the last books of 3e, to silly rulings published in FAQs and related material, to the lamentable (or absent) state of errata; all of this just cemented my belief that creative and quality concerns didn't run the unit over there at WotC. Instead, bean-counters decided that $40.00 a book was a decent price, everything should be in hardcover as a principle, and that proper editing and play-testing pushed back publishing dates and drove up expenses.

In the end, TSR was almost more aesthetically pleasing in their approach, since they were clearly not intent on making money (and rather impressively so). I find myself increasingly just taking the sound basis that is 3e and modifying it to my own needs. Hopefully, I will never need to buy another product from WotC (at least one that isn't Magic cards or the occasional video game).

[Psyren]

Well, you see, the reprinted "errors" are actually further errata, we decided the corrections we made weren't right in the first place.:smalltongue:

Which reminds me - wasn't there some argument here a little while back that the premium X books constituted the new "Primary Sources" and that therefore every pre-existing errata (e.g. Rules Compendium) was now obsolete? So this means that WotC have indeed errata'ed their own errata and removed its authority :smallamused:

[Agincourt]

I believe that is Curmudgeon's argument about the primacy of certain rules found in the Rules Compendium that seemed to overrule rules found in the DMG.

[Phelix-Mu]

I believe that is Curmudgeon's argument about the primacy of certain rules found in the Rules Compendium that seemed to overrule rules found in the DMG.

Which is why I was a little confused by the publication of Rules Compendium, as the book really does exist in a kind of "your books aren't good enough anymore" kind of way. I would have been much happier with properly updated and published errata files and maybe a "Skills Compendium" (a bone for the mundanes, mayhaps?), with compiled skill-use updates, expanded skill tricks, and updated epic uses/expanded DC charts in light of skill optimization being a thing.

Again, they seem to have opted for an "it's largely a reprint" because of money, not because it was necessarily practical (since Rules Compendium floats in a weird grey-space of not being core if it's not around, but suddenly taking precedence if someone has it).

[JaronK]

Which reminds me - wasn't there some argument here a little while back that the premium X books constituted the new "Primary Sources" and that therefore every pre-existing errata (e.g. Rules Compendium) was now obsolete? So this means that WotC have indeed errata'ed their own errata and removed its authority :smallamused:

Indeed, because the Rules Compendium explicitly states that it only trumps over books printed before it. The Premium books are printed later, so they trump the RC on everything.

So the new Premium books basically serve no purpose except to throw out the RC as a valid rules source. I mean, I'm not really a fan of the RC to begin with, but this is just silly.

Joy.

JaronK

[Psyren]

They've also thrown out their own errata, since clearly if the errata were valid, it would have been included in the later printing. Right? Right.


this is just silly.

Well, we agree on something at least.

[olentu]

Indeed, because the Rules Compendium explicitly states that it only trumps over books printed before it. The Premium books are printed later, so they trump the RC on everything.

So the new Premium books basically serve no purpose except to throw out the RC as a valid rules source. I mean, I'm not really a fan of the RC to begin with, but this is just silly.

Joy.

JaronK

However, and this can be very important to note, if the new books overrule the rules compendium it is so far as I can tell not because they are primary sources, but rather due to the publication date rule.


They've also thrown out their own errata, since clearly if the errata were valid, it would have been included in the later printing. Right? Right.

You know, if we are considering the premium books different books from the originals (thus allowing them to override the rules compendium) then I think that actually is correct.

[BowStreetRunner]

Magic Item Compendium
3.5 Edition Premium Reprint
The ultimate magic item trove for D&D players!

The 3.5 Edition Premium Magic Item Compendium collects the most popular magic items in the D&D game and presents them in one easy-to-reference tome. This premium reprint also features an attractive new cover and includes errata.

Item Details
Item Code: 35780000
Release Date: July 16, 2013
Format: Hardcover
Page Count: 160
Price: $49.95; C$58.00
ISBN: 978-0-7869-6449-9
So a friend of mine called customer service to complain. Apparently, they were 'unaware' of the issue. They took his contact info and said they are looking into it. We'll see where this leads. I would recommend anyone else with a copy contact WOTC customer service (http://company.wizards.com/contactus) as well.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu
Instead, bean-counters decided that $40.00 a book was a decent price, everything should be in hardcover as a principle, and that proper editing and play-testing pushed back publishing dates and drove up expenses.

I agree with what you're saying here, and with the rest of your comments in general; but unfortunately those same bean-counters seem to have their hooks in Paizo as well. Their production values are lovely, but the same philosophy runs true: everything in hardcover, everything insanely priced--and apparently it sells.

Either that, or their practice of offering PDFs is what's sustaining them right now.


Originally Posted by BowStreetRunner
So a friend of mine called customer service to complain. Apparently, they were 'unaware' of the issue.

In my experience, Wizards Customer Service isn't aware of all that much. Or at least they don't like to share what they know.

:smallannoyed:

.

[Psyren]

I agree with this, and with the rest of your comments in general; but unfortunately those same bean-counters seem to have their hooks in Paizo as well. Their production values are lovely, but the same philosophy runs true: everything in hardcover, everything insanely priced--and apparently it sells.

The difference with paizo is that people choose to buy. The production values are high, the art style is unified and consistent across books, and above all, you know exactly what you're getting before you shell out. People don't feel cheated (CPsi anyone?) with a PF sourcebook and that good will doubles back into their sales.



Either that, or their practice of offering PDFs is what's sustaining them right now.

I'd say the non-sourcebook stuff - adventure paths, cardstock mini boxes, condition/crit decks, DM screens etc. - are a big part of it too.

[Menzath]

The new reprint of Spell compendium did fix the issue with the reading of thunderhead. But I have found other errors that were not fixed from the original reprinting. Same thing with all the other books (PH, MM, DM) Notably for me in the MM, colossal Centipedes are still listed as having a Dex of 13, but an AC bonus of +2 from dexterity. It's saves are calculated correctly if it's dex really is 13.

Q: So why did they keep that typo among all the others I have found.

A: Who cares except us nerds(who are going to buy the books regardless).

Edit: My own derp typos.

[NeoPhoenix0]

So a friend of mine called customer service to complain. Apparently, they were 'unaware' of the issue. They took his contact info and said they are looking into it. We'll see where this leads. I would recommend anyone else with a copy contact WOTC customer service (http://company.wizards.com/contactus) as well.

I was going to suggest the same thing but by the time I got to a computer you beat me by a substantial amount of time.

[Nettlekid]

So, what IS the difference in the Premium MIC? Are there any new items? New rules, new printing? Or is it actually entirely the same as the MIC we know and love?

[OracleofWuffing]

However, and this can be very important to note, if the new books overrule the rules compendium it is so far as I can tell not because they are primary sources, but rather due to the publication date rule.



You know, if we are considering the premium books different books from the originals (thus allowing them to override the rules compendium) then I think that actually is correct.

Wow, and I was just aiming for a chuckle when I brought that up.

Of course, we at Wizards have listened to our customers' complaints, and we will be glad to correct them. We are glad to announce that we will be printing a Premium Rules Compendium, with a suggested retail price of $54.95. All customers who have purchased a copy of our Premium Spell Compendium will receive a $5 rebate shortly in their e-mail for this product. :smallbiggrin:


In my experience, Wizards Customer Service isn't aware of all that much. Or at least they don't like to share what they know.
When this is all over, we might have a very interesting new angle to look at when we say that CustServ is not RAW...

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
The difference with paizo is that people choose to buy. The production values are high, the art style is unified and consistent across books, and above all, you know exactly what you're getting before you shell out.

I'm with you on the first two points--Pathfinder's art is usually lightyears beyond the crud from Wizards--but not sure I follow you on the third. I used to spend my lunch breaks at Borders, flipping through the new 3.5 hardcovers as soon as they came out. These days it's Pathfinder on the shelves at B&N. Seems pretty much the same to me.

The goodwill, though, does sound like a powerful factor. WotC seems to have a positive knack for rubbing their customer base the wrong way.


Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing
When this is all over, we might have a very interesting new angle to look at when we say that CustServ is not RAW...

It's things like this that convince me anything from CustServ should be blown out a launch tube.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Paizo also seems to pack more into their main books.

[Pink]

Also, rule wise, Paizo makes almost every crunch related thing they publish available for free on online srd. Seriously, have you looked at the PFsrd? Every monster from APs or Bestiaries. Almost all of the rules from the latest Ultimate Campaign hardcover. Crunch from the softcover player and campaign setting books. Paizo gives you the choice to support them, and it seems to work for them.

[Thurbane]

Look, I'm going to go against the grain here.

Apart from some pretty bad errors (especially in stat blocks) and lack of proof reading, I was generally pretty happy with the production values of the majority of 3.5 books. I even liked most of the art. Sure, I had a few particular artists I didn't enjoy. And sometimes the ones I did enjoy put out art that was obviously rushed for a deadline.

On the subject of hardcovers and pricing - dammit, I *like* hardcovers. I've been gaming for over 25 years, and my hardcovers have, in general, lasted a lot better than the softcovers. And I like physical books - pdfs are handy for cross referencing, but I always like to have a physical book to take to the table at a game.

And the pricing? Come on peeps - the bigger/most popular RPG publishers have made us pay premium dollar for most of that 25 years I mentioned. It's the same with any "niche market" products - you pay through the nose because they know most of their target audience will.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Thurbane
On the subject of hardcovers and pricing...my hardcovers have, in general, lasted a lot better than the softcovers. And I like physical books - pdfs are handy for cross referencing, but I always like to have a physical book to take to the table at a game.

Well, my hardcover FRCS has held up extremely well to many years of referencing. My softcover Magic of Faerûn, alas, is a real wreck. There's a definite case to be made for hardcovers, as far as durability goes.

As for pricing, however...I will say only that my 3.5 PHB has a cover price of $29.95, weighs 2.5 pounds and runs 320 pages. My copy of Complete Scoundrel, also retailing for $29.95, weighs 1.4 pounds and runs all of 160 pages. That's quite a disparity.

:smallannoyed:

[Phelix-Mu]

I do like hardcovers, too. Don't much like the crazy inflation that follows them around, though. And, while we're at it, they used to make some of the less-oft used setting stuff in paperback, or, way back, in a sort of folio format for modules and such. Towards the end of 3.5, though, it seemed like they really were trying to make everything hardcover, even books that weren't particularly big and which had fairly narrow focus.

I wouldn't mind the hardcover creep if it didn't also accompany the inflation of prices. $30.00 is sensible for a core book. Supplements should be cheaper, in my opinion.

Not that economics gives a damn about my opinion, though.:smallamused:

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu
And, while we're at it, they used to make some of the less-oft used setting stuff in paperback, or, way back, in a sort of folio format for modules and such.

This exactly. I have the softcover 3.0 Silver Marches supplement, and noticed that the later regional supplements were invariably hardcover. I gather that Silver Marches was a bit of an experiment, to see how a regional book would go over, and when that was well-received they went completely to hardcover. As far as I know, all the Eberron books were hardcover.

[Drachasor]

Paizo also seems to pack more into their main books.

Eh, from the Paizo Books I and my friends have (most of them), I'd say they pack a lot of crud into their books. I'll have to go over things in detail, but there seem to be a lot more horrible feats, spells, and the like in PF books than I remember from 3.5. A lot of the books could lose 80% of their content or more and have lost nothing significant. Not a good thing.

[nyjastul69]

Well, my hardcover FRCS has held up extremely well to many years of referencing. My softcover Magic of Faerûn, alas, is a real wreck. There's a definite case to be made for hardcovers, as far as durability goes.

As for pricing, however...I will say only that my 3.5 PHB has a cover price of $29.95, weighs 2.5 pounds and runs 320 pages. My copy of Complete Scoundrel, also retailing for $29.95, weighs 1.4 pounds and runs all of 160 pages. That's quite a disparity.

:smallannoyed:

I think the reason for this is because the core books are 'underpriced' in order to sell well. Wotc can make their profit by volume of sales with a small markup for core books, as opposed to splat books which need a higher markup due to lesser sale expectations. The quality remains same throughout though, for the hardcovers anyway. By quality I refer to the physical book, not it's contents. The 3.X hardcovers are the most durable RPG's that I own. The core books should really have a higher MSRP. The splats are pretty much spot on for such a niche market considering their quality.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Eh, from the Paizo Books I and my friends have (most of them), I'd say they pack a lot of crud into their books. I'll have to go over things in detail, but there seem to be a lot more horrible feats, spells, and the like in PF books than I remember from 3.5. A lot of the books could lose 80% of their content or more and have lost nothing significant. Not a good thing.

Well on the feats front, pathfinder tends to have weaker feats in general. It is one of the main sources of power in 3.5 over pathfinder. The other big source of power in 3.5 is the shear multitude of prestige classes.

[Drachasor]

Well on the feats front, pathfinder tends to have weaker feats in general. It is one of the main sources of power in 3.5 over pathfinder. The other big source of power in 3.5 is the shear multitude of prestige classes.

3.5 also has some more interesting ACFs. A lot of PF archetypes are rather lame.

Heck, some PF stuff is designed to be total dreck, like PF's version of VoP.

[TentacleSurpris]

Someone just posted on Amazon that Custserv contacted them back and said that the errata promise was an error and will be removed from the website. Make of that what you will.

I make that it doesn't bode well for the integrity and publishing quality we'll see with dnd Next.

[Psyren]

Someone just posted on Amazon that Custserv contacted them back and said that the errata promise was an error and will be removed from the website. Make of that what you will.

I make that it doesn't bode well for the integrity and publishing quality we'll see with dnd Next.

LOL
LOL
LOL

So the promise was the error. Stay classy, WotC!

[BowStreetRunner]

Someone just posted on Amazon that Custserv contacted them back and said that the errata promise was an error and will be removed from the website. Make of that what you will.

I make that it doesn't bode well for the integrity and publishing quality we'll see with dnd Next.

So their advertising was false, due to an error. I wonder if they will offer refunds to anyone who no longer wants the book...[EDIT: Nope. They told my friend to take it back to the store he purchased it at and ask for a refund there. Problem is he got it through Amazon on a pre-order 3 months ago and even if he jumps through all of the hoops necessary to return it for a refund, it is unlikely he will ever be reimbursed for everything including shipping costs. So they reprint 4 books from 3.5 with errata, advertise that the 5th will also have errata, print it without errata, then tell those who bought it for the errata "oops, we didn't really mean that" and leave it at that?]

The wizards site has already been updated.

Magic Item Compendium
3.5 Edition Premium Reprint
The ultimate magic item trove for D&D players!

The 3.5 Edition Premium Magic Item Compendium collects the most popular magic items in the D&D game and presents them in one easy-to-reference tome. This premium reprint also features an attractive new cover and includes errata.

Item Details
Item Code: 35780000
Release Date: July 16, 2013
Format: Hardcover
Page Count: 160
Price: $49.95; C$58.00
ISBN: 978-0-7869-6449-9

Magic Item Compendium
3.5 Edition Premium Reprint
The ultimate magic item trove for D&D players!

The 3.5 Edition Premium Magic Item Compendium collects the most popular magic items in the D&D game and presents them in one easy-to-reference tome. This premium reprint also features an attractive new cover.

Item Details
Item Code: 35780000
Release Date: July 16, 2013
Format: Hardcover
Page Count: 160
Price: $49.95; C$58.00
ISBN: 978-0-7869-6449-9

[Agincourt]

The wizards site has already been updated.

So they do know how to edit mistakes...

[Krobar]

What makes this "premium", and why should I spend $50 for it if I already have the original?

[Svata]

What makes this "premium", and why should I spend $50 for it if I already have the original?

In their opinion? Because its shiny.

[Tanuki Tales]

What makes this "premium", and why should I spend $50 for it if I already have the original?

A glossy new cover.

[Palanan]

Hard to imagine exactly what happened at Wizards with this, apart from a massive internal communications issue. I have a feeling whoever was doing the reprints either forgot the errata or, more likely, was behind schedule and simply didn't bother to take the time to work them in.

Either way, it's a genuine embarrassment for Wizards, and demonstrates a fundamentally unprofessional attitude in their production and advertising departments. A company with more professional pride would have offered some form of apology, which is conspicuously absent here.




Originally Posted by BowStreetRunner
Problem is he got it through Amazon on a pre-order 3 months ago and even if he jumps through all of the hoops necessary to return it for a refund, it is unlikely he will ever be reimbursed for everything including shipping costs.

I am now immensely glad I didn't get this on a pre-order. I'm not all that concerned about errata per se, but the fact that Wizards has so blatantly blown off a whole sector of their customer base--yes, once again--just convinces me not to do business with them, ever.

Wizards: The best advertising Paizo could possibly ask for.

:smallfrown:

[Segev]

Yeah, it's almost like they're begging somebody to do an Ultimate Magic Item Catalogue for PF that has suspiciously familiar (but not IP-violating) magic items that are more in line with errata'd information.

[Palanan]

I'd pre-order that.

:smalltongue:

[NeoPhoenix0]

Isn't WotC at risk of legal action at this point?

[BowStreetRunner]

I would really like to see what happens to sales of this book compared to the other four re-releases. The only thing that would possibly make wizards care would be if they actually take a loss on the fifth book instead of making a profit.

[Krobar]

What makes this "premium", and why should I spend $50 for it if I already have the original?


In their opinion? Because its shiny.


A glossy new cover.


That's what I thought. Thanks. I won't be buying it. If there are no new items, and there's not even errata included, I can't see any reason to spend my hard-earned money on it.

[eggynack]

A glossy new cover.
It's like you didn't even read what Wizard's wrote. This book isn't premium because it has a glossy new cover. It's premium because it has an attractive new cover. It makes all the difference.

[Psyren]

To be fair, it is a nice cover. But here again I give it to Paizo - WotC books (at least the 3.5 ones) are styled more like "This is an ancient book of esoteric secrets" whereas Pathfinder books are more like "Hey you! Yeah you! Look how much fun you could be having! Buy me!"

http://diehardgamefan.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/img0011.jpghttp://cache2.bdcdn.net/assets/images/book/large/9781/6012/9781601254498.jpg

[zorenathres]

the kicker for me was seeing how quickly they changed the description on their page, without any attempt at making an apology to the many people who preordered or purchased said book under false info.

never preordered a D&D book, as I am usually forced to look for used books where I can find them.

[NeoPhoenix0]

To be fair, it is a nice cover. But here again I give it to Paizo - WotC books (at least the 3.5 ones) are styled more like "This is an ancient book of esoteric secrets" whereas Pathfinder books are more like "Hey you! Yeah you! Look how much fun you could be having! Buy me!"


3.5 books look ancient and esoteric because their rules are written in an ancient and lost language that no one, especially WotC, can interpret.

[DR27]

At this point, considering how poor wotc has been about making customers happy - I'm surprised that 3.5 is consumed in any format besides PDFs. I know a tablet is about a billion times easier to use than flipping through a stack of books at the table. And costs a lot less. But I guess it's a lot more ethical to buy their books.

[Segev]

I personally find flipping through the mountain of books FAR easier than trying to flip pdfs on any electronic format. THe latter is cumbersome as heck and only preferable to not having the rules at all in that it makes it theoretically possible to look them up without calling somebody else who has the book in question.

[zorenathres]

I personally find flipping through the mountain of books FAR easier than trying to flip pdfs on any electronic format. THe latter is cumbersome as heck and only preferable to not having the rules at all in that it makes it theoretically possible to look them up without calling somebody else who has the book in question.

I personally find the opposite to be true, as having to lug said mountain of books around can be troublesome, not to mention the search function on your laptop can find what you are looking for faster than you can find the listing in the index or TOC.

[Segev]

To each their own, I guess. I have found search to be useful occasionally, but generally I find even that to be of dubious benefit considering how hard it is to actually navigate pdfs. Especially since they are never sized to fit your screen, so you have to scroll all over and hope you don't run off to another page when what you really wanted was just to see the top of this one, and why o why is it freezing when all I asked it to do is look at the top of the page? (That last is mostly a problem with tablets, as my laptop does okay, but using the mouse to navigate is also annoying at that point.)

But yes, if it works for you, great. For me, I like being able to put my finger in two or three places and glance between two and three books at once without having to find the focus on them in my tablet or laptop. I like being able to see a whole page at once at readable size, too.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Segev
I personally find flipping through the mountain of books FAR easier than trying to flip pdfs on any electronic format.

I'm with this, completely. Dealing with PDFs can be a real hassle. There are times when searching for a spell citation is useful, but for the most part I really prefer having physical books to work with.

Also, I've seen some of the Paizo PDFs in action, especially the CRB. Maybe it was just a slow computer, but it took forever just to render the layers of art and text on the cover, never mind the next 576 pages. My fingers can do the walking a whole lot faster.


Originally Posted by zorenathres
the kicker for me was seeing how quickly they changed the description on their page, without any attempt at making an apology to the many people who preordered or purchased said book under false info.

For me this is a serious issue, because it really is a case of false advertising. Promising to include the errata probably nudged a lot of people to go ahead and justify purchasing the book--which was exactly what Wizards wanted. Failing to deliver was bad enough; failing to apologize--and trying to ignore the issue altogether--is exceptionally unprofessional, not to mention almost childish.

If I'd bought one of these MICs, I'd be burning up the phone lines to everyone I could find at Wizards. They really need to hear from people that this sort of treatment destroys their credibility as a publisher.

[Tvtyrant]

On the art issue, I actually think the best RPG book ever printed for its art was Al-Qadim. I have an old soft bound which I bought exclusively because the art is gorgeous and in a style I love. I actually hate the art styles of Paizo and newer WotC, especially Eberron and 4th edition.

Give me old style Gothic or 1930s Hollywood anyday!

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/p480x480/1000132_619284661438191_352746747_n.jpg
http://www.critical-hits.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/strahd_en_castillo.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-odyDbKHPtyU/T1Rreg1sfiI/AAAAAAAAA_Q/covp4Yi4ZdA/s320/RPG_ad%2526dalqarbnadv.jpg

[Gigas Breaker]

I find it super easy to use bookmarks and control f on pdfs.

[zorenathres]

To each their own, I guess. I have found search to be useful occasionally, but generally I find even that to be of dubious benefit considering how hard it is to actually navigate pdfs. Especially since they are never sized to fit your screen, so you have to scroll all over and hope you don't run off to another page when what you really wanted was just to see the top of this one, and why o why is it freezing when all I asked it to do is look at the top of the page? (That last is mostly a problem with tablets, as my laptop does okay, but using the mouse to navigate is also annoying at that point.)

But yes, if it works for you, great. For me, I like being able to put my finger in two or three places and glance between two and three books at once without having to find the focus on them in my tablet or laptop. I like being able to see a whole page at once at readable size, too.

ok i can see this, i don't use a pad so no prob there, maybe i take for granted that its easy as pie on my laptop & have not had the need to pick up a book in ages, i also have two screens so the extended desktop space allows me to have multiple things up at once (on an older macbook pro, & no lag whatsoever, but my older laptop would lag sometimes with the PDF's with a lot of hi-res images).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Tvtyrant
I actually hate the art styles of Paizo and newer WotC, especially Eberron and 4th edition.

In other words, Wayne Reynolds? :smallamused:

It doesn't bother me that much, but I do understand where you're coming from. The Reynolds/Paizo art is strangely stylized and incredibly busy, which sometimes conveys Epic Action, and sometimes just Cluttered Mess.

Personally, I really like the cover art for Magic of Faerûn and Silver Marches, by Justin Sweet and Vance Kovacs respectively. Purely a matter of taste.


Originally Posted by Psyren
But here again I give it to Paizo - WotC books (at least the 3.5 ones) are styled more like "This is an ancient book of esoteric secrets" whereas Pathfinder books are more like "Hey you! Yeah you! Look how much fun you could be having! Buy me!"

Definitely true, and I like the Paizo cover you posted in particular. Now I want that sword. :smalltongue:

I do like the shiny new covers of the Premium SC and MIC, but they really do rest on their laurels with those, rather than making an attempt to entice you in. They're going for dignified style, you see.

[Tvtyrant]

In other words, Wayne Reynolds? :smallamused:

It doesn't bother me that much, but I do understand where you're coming from. The Reynolds/Paizo art is strangely stylized and incredibly busy, which sometimes conveys Epic Action, and sometimes just Cluttered Mess.

Personally, I really like the cover art for Magic of Faerûn and Silver Marches, by Justin Sweet and Vance Kovacs respectively. Purely a matter of taste.

Yeah, I don't know what it is but his art always looks like it was taken from a shaky action cam. Wayne Reynold's art makes my skin itch...

Both of your examples are good ones. I like the earth tones a lot.
Edit: I think I realized why I dislike Reynold's art. The lines are extremely thick like a comic book, which clashes with the point perspective and realistic detailing. Everything feels like it is made of cardboard as a result, with super detailed but flat characters. Not that everyone should feel the same way, I just don't like it.

@the actual subject of this thread: shame on them for trying to sweep the whole thing under the carpet. They should at least apologize for messing up.

[Segev]

In many ways, I do find Pathfinder at this point to be the superior product. They have a better structure for manifold class options (ACFs taken to 11 vs. 3e's PrC proliferation), they have plenty of reason to take classes all the way up, and they've made serious (if not 100% sufficient) effort to upgrade the non-casters to something that is at least going to halfway keep up.

However, their art actually leaves something to be desired, for me. Especially on the covers. I think the visual style gone for with most of the 3e books was a good one: a little understated and classy. The full-bleed scene-art on PF covers is...forgettable, to me. It looks more like somebody hardcovered a magazine.

In all honesty, if that's the worst of its sins, that's a good thing. But it is something I think WotC did better.

[Psyren]

Wayne's art... I honestly have not seen a single piece I didn't like. I just like the style a lot. And he's doing some pieces for Ultimate Psionics now... it's hard not to squee.



Definitely true, and I like the Paizo cover you posted in particular. Now I want that sword. :smalltongue:

It just pops out of the page, doesn't it :smallbiggrin:

[Phelix-Mu]

Art is so terribly subjective. I personally fell in love with the 2nd edition full-page color pics back in the day; I still remember several of the ones from the paperback handbooks, like the one for rangers and the one for druids. Some of that art was *in-cred-i-ble*. Like the kind of stuff I would pay money to have a large format print of (or a hi-res scan that could be enlarged without pixelating horribly:smallwink:).

The more modern stuff is attractive, and there is much more color throughout the books, which is nice (though I am still mostly a fan of full-page stuff).

Back to the OP, Paizo is strictly superior to WotC at this point, simply because they are still in business with a functional thing. If 3.5 were still in production, there might be a comparison, but you can't make much of a comparison between an established, extinct canon and an ongoing, evolving, and properly errata'd project like Pathfinder.

Don't get me wrong; I'm hardcore 3e, all the way. (I really need a tattoo, dog-tags or something to make that clear when they find my body.) But new material and a proper mix of creativity and production quality are kind of key, and neither are big features of 3e. One day I will look at PF, and I'll probably settle on some form of 3.P or whatever the nomenclature is. For now, I'm basking in the twilight of WotC's era of making systems I can live with.

In the long-run, though, 3.5 is plenty complex, and as a writer, the rules themselves are totally less important than the plot and the storytelling. Those aspects of the game are largely intangibles that can't be packaged, and interactive storytelling really is the essence of the table dynamic that I find most enjoyable, and hardest to replicate in any other medium.