So why has Nale wanted to kill Malak for so long?

[Gopher]

Anyone want to guess what happened when Nale was nine?

On one hand, we know that the Linear Guild (and Nale in particular) is practically synonomous with taking disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slights (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0257.html). Still, it's always possible this is the exception.

[RMS Oceanic]

Maybe Malack liked his boots. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0608.html) :smalltongue:

I'd be interested in seeing a glimpse into Nale's childhood to flesh this out.

[Lvl45DM!]

Anyone want to guess what happened when Nale was nine?

On one hand, we know that the Linear Guild (and Nale in particular) is practically synonomous with taking disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slights (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0257.html). Still, it's always possible this is the exception.

Really seems like thats the best reason though. Malack was Nale's fathers trusted confidant. Thats enough for Nale to kill him.

[ti'esar]

I'd lean towards believing it was something a little more serious then Nale's usual reasons for wanting to kill people, based on previous comments by Rich that imply why he turned out the way he did is possibly spoileriffic. But you never know.

[Mike Havran]

I smell a prequel hook.

[Filippo]

My guess is for a new book that digs in the past of Tarquin's group, at least in a part of it

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Anyone want to guess what happened when Nale was nine?

On one hand, we know that the Linear Guild (and Nale in particular) is practically synonomous with taking disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slights (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0257.html). Still, it's always possible this is the exception.

Nale is also well-known for his needlessly convoluted plans. He has literally been planning this kill since he was nine years old.

This is why Nale was in the Empire of Blood to begin with. His current goal is to destroy everything his father has worked to build (and then build his own kingdom from the ashes).

[Kish]

He's Nale. It doesn't have to be anything more than that Malack slighted him in some way that only made sense in his mad mind when he was nine years old, and he's been dreaming of vengeance ever since.

[Thanatosia]

I'd guess that Nale wants to protect his inheretence & Perhaps learned of Malak & Tarquins long range plans....

Tarquin & Co are currently working to build a giant empire.

Nale wants to rule that empire.
Malak wants to convert that empire into a giant Death Camp (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0875.html) for his god.
And Tarquin is OK with Malak's plan as long as he gets a big statue out of it.

In Nale's position, that would be a pretty big motivation to kill the Lizard I'd say.

[Trixie]

You really need an explanation why a child might find vampire's habits traumatic enough to utterly despise them forever? :smallconfused:

Only thing I don't get is, if Nale hated Malack so much, why didn't he put 'children' in " ", both as a mockery and to indicate these were just spawn, first time we saw that term it was understandable to not spoil the secret, but now?

[Sylthia]

Maybe Malak really did consider them his children in his own twisted way, since we see him consider Durkon his "brother", or at least wants him to be.

[Thanatosia]

I smell a prequel hook.
I doubt it.... I mean, the Giant may eventually come out with a book about Tarquins Adventuring Party... but even if he does I doubt it'll all hang on some until then unexplained reason for Nale vs Malak's animosity.

I'm guessing the reason will probably come out during the inevitable forthcoming Tarquin/Nale confrontation.

[henrykazuka]

Maybe Nale wanted Malack to betray his father. Malack obviously said no.
And we know that no one denies Nale. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0061.html) (at least that's what he thinks)

[Carry2]

I'd be interested in seeing a glimpse into Nale's childhood to flesh this out.
I'd like to see that too. I think this might be the most genuinely-credible villain moment we've seen from Nale, and this outburst gives him something close to pathos- given he knows his own father wants to kill him. That might have been the clinching factor.

Hard to say why the grudge goes back so far, but yeah, Nale has a fairly diseased mind. It's not hard to imagine a falling out between them over... any discernible personality conflict.

.

[skim172]

Maybe Nale wanted Malack to betray his father. Malack obviously said no.
And we know that no one denies Nale. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0061.html) (at least that's what he thinks)

Since he was nine? I know he's evil, but that would make him some sort of prodigy of malevolence who started scheming grand conspiracies before he hit double digits.

I'm gonna go with the people saying this is a prequel hook - I have been convinced (quite recently) by some other forumgoers that the Linear Guild's break with Tarquin is due for some hardcore prequelling and this seems like a good lead-in to that.

[King of Nowhere]

Since he was nine? I know he's evil, but that would make him some sort of prodigy of malevolence who started scheming grand conspiracies before he hit double digits.


Well, if you consider the way he was brought up...

[Tragak]

Maybe some of his childhood friends got eaten?

[Aldrakan]

Given how Nale is, I don't think we have enough evidence to point to anything in particular. But a few possibilities:

Nale wants to inherit the empire and Malack stood in the way of that.
Nale just found Malack terrifying as a child.
Nale resented that Tarquin listened to Malack over him, even at that age.
Malack killed or turned someone Nale liked.
Malack didn't get him a present for his ninth birthday.

[SandboxPenguin]

I smell a prequel hook.

Ditto. I agree.

[Jay R]

I assume that it was something pretty trivial. The Linear Guild is practically synonymous with taking disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slights (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0257.html).

[Excise]

My prediction!


Nale grew up with his father and Random_Non-Malack_Tarquin_Party_Member and learned from them. Maybe even a couple non-Malack team members since we know they rotate around.

Nale also has some kind of (girl?)friend or pet or something else he cares about. Basically a Right-Eye for him.

Pseudo-Right-Eye ends up putting Tarquin's plan in jeopardy, either intentionally or accidentally. This is just as Malack comes in for his turn of working with Tarquin.

We have a big dramatic scene when Nale is nine where Pseudo-Right-Eye is killed by Malack since "business comes before pleasure".

This is the catalyst for Nale turning against Tarquin, and eventually he revolts, has his failed rebellion, and murders Malack's children.


Plausible?

[King of Nowhere]

My prediction!


Nale grew up with his father and Random_Non-Malack_Tarquin_Party_Member and learned from them. Maybe even a couple non-Malack team members since we know they rotate around.

Nale also has some kind of (girl?)friend or pet or something else he cares about. Basically a Right-Eye for him.

Pseudo-Right-Eye ends up putting Tarquin's plan in jeopardy, either intentionally or accidentally. This is just as Malack comes in for his turn of working with Tarquin.

We have a big dramatic scene when Nale is nine where Pseudo-Right-Eye is killed by Malack since "business comes before pleasure".

This is the catalyst for Nale turning against Tarquin, and eventually he revolts, has his failed rebellion, and murders Malack's children.


Plausible?

Dunno, I don't see nale caring for someone that's not bedding him regularly. He sure loves sabine, but I doubt at age 9 he could care for anyone that deeply.
Then again, maybe he didn't really care deeply, but it is the whole "disproportionate revenge" thing.

[Faldrath]

While this may be a prequel hook, I don't think whatever happened when Nale was 9 is very important - I think it's just Rich's way of reminding us how evil and dangerous Nale is.

Most people were seeing Nale as a bit of a buffoon lately (there had been a lot of grumbling of the "let's just be done with Nale and go back to the real villains" variety), and I think this latest development means to tell us that he's still a very credible threat.

[Leliel]

My guess is that Nale blamed Malack for his parents' divorce.

That's both a very poignant and very childish motivation, the kind truly epic villains have.

On one level, Nale is again an opposite of Elan, as he can't get over his immature hatred of the people he blames for a childhood trauma...

But on the other, it's also perfectly understandable, and if we see a flashback showing Malack advising Tarquin to leave his wife, it humanizes him into someone who could exist in real life.

Bonus points for Z turning out to have been a father figure for Nale, perhaps his sorcery tutor. That also shows that, emotionally, Nale doesn't view Tarquin as his real dad.

[Mollez]

I hold the idea that it's simple jealousy. Hear me out.

Nale grows up with his father, but not his mother. So all his parental affection, he needs to get from his father. Problem is, his father is too busy for parental affection. Busy with adventuring, and eventually busy with taking over the continent. Now, anyone can be hurt by lack of attention. But a child? That ****'s going to stab deep.

What a child sees is not his father being dismissive. It's other people taking his father away. He doesn't see that his father is choosing to be away from him, he sees that other people spend more time with him.

So a neglected child, Nale, sees how much time and respect Malack gets from Tarquin and gets jealous. Jealousy turns to anger, anger turns into hate.

Just my 2 cents.

[BrometheusJones]

Anyone want to guess what happened when Nale was nine?

On one hand, we know that the Linear Guild (and Nale in particular) is practically synonomous with taking disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slights (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0257.html). Still, it's always possible this is the exception.

Im thinking what you suggest. Malack probably did nothing of consequence, nor even intended to, and Nale somehow took it as an insult and planned to kill him for over a decade.

I doubt Malack would even remember the "incident" that perpetuated Nales hate.

I doubt anyone but Nale would, and that itll turn out to be something ridiculous.

[F.Harr]

I don't know about rediculous. Usually, Nale is a pretty comic vilian. But in this scene, he's scary. It suggests that there's a profound reason for his animosity.

[BrometheusJones]

I don't know about rediculous. Usually, Nale is a pretty comic vilian. But in this scene, he's scary. It suggests that there's a profound reason for his animosity.

I think that would make it all the funnier when/if his reasoning is revealed. Looks like a great joke set up to me.

[Sunken Valley]

LG prequel is happening. We've had four hints this year alone of past events.

A once cherished relationship between Nale and Tarquin. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html)

Malack wasted so much of his lifetime teaching Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0894.html)

The IFCC sent multiple fiends to infiltrate Tarquin's Empire. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html)

Nale wanted to kill Malack for over half his life. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html)

Also, no wonder Nale is scared of Malack. Look at him! I'd be scared. Especially if I saw him feed. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0870.html) Maybe Nale saw him feed at a young age.

[Bryan1108]

One thing that occurred to me that may mean nothing. Nale is a Fighter/Mage/Rogue multi-classer which means that he may have studied and learned from all of his father's teammates except for Malack.

It might be that Malack did something to one of Nale's teachers.

Quite a stretch on no info but what the hey.

[Evazan]

Nale is also well-known for his needlessly convoluted plans. He has literally been planning this kill since he was nine years old.

This is why Nale was in the Empire of Blood to begin with. His current goal is to destroy everything his father has worked to build (and then build his own kingdom from the ashes).

Even though he's wanted to kill Malack since he was nine, and even if he's been planning to do so since he was nine, that doesn't mean that the plan was "ridiculously convoluted." It's actually beautifully simple


Nale waits until he knows Malack has used his second Protection from Daylight spell.
Nale waits until he's outside with Malack and Zz'dtri that same day while Tarquin isn't there.
Nale grabs Malack's staff.
Zz'dtri casts Dispel Magic.

I'd actually guess that the plan itself didn't actually form until Nale knew that Malack wouldn't kill him while he was still useful to Tarquin. This gives Nale a definite timeline to kill Malack--he knows that Malack will try to kill him once they secure the Gate, but not before. From there, it's only a matter of time for the stars to line up. If he needed to, Nale could probably even force it if time were running short and he knew Malack would try to kill him soon. Zz'dtri would just need to prepare Dispel Magic twice, and they could probably even do it in front of Tarquin, since the whole plan only takes two rounds.

[JCAll]

Maybe Malack took the last piece of birthday cake at Nale's 9th birthday party. He's a vampire, he doesn't even EAT cake, but he took it anyway. Revenge will be mine!

[Mollez]

LG prequel is happening. We've had four hints this year alone of past events.

A once cherished relationship between Nale and Tarquin. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html)


The way he worded it strongly suggested to me that he was speaking of his ex-wife, not Nale himself.

[BrometheusJones]

Maybe Malack took the last piece of birthday cake at Nale's 9th birthday party. He's a vampire, he doesn't even EAT cake, but he took it anyway. Revenge will be mine!

Exactly. Thats what Im going to be looking for :smalltongue:

[Gopher]

@Leliel- I like that, but remember that the divorce happened when the twins were babies. Nale doesn't even remember his mother.

@Mollez- That could work.

The general idea that his grudge against Malak is an extension of his grudge against his father also makes sense.

I have to agree with F.Harr that it's likely the reason is non-trivial.

[hoff]

He wanted to kill him because he acts condescending to everybody, even Tarquin who he wholly admits to being a great general. Tarquin doesn't have a godzilla size ego so he lets that pass, Nale on the other hand...

[Math_Mage]

LG prequel is happening. We've had four hints this year alone of past events.

A once cherished relationship between Nale and Tarquin. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html)

Malack wasted so much of his lifetime teaching Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0894.html)

The IFCC sent multiple fiends to infiltrate Tarquin's Empire. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html)

Nale wanted to kill Malack for over half his life. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html)

Also, no wonder Nale is scared of Malack. Look at him! I'd be scared. Especially if I saw him feed. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0870.html) Maybe Nale saw him feed at a young age.
I don't know if LG prequel is happening, but you absolutely deserve kudos for putting all those hints together. This is one reason I think Nale has a real reason for plotting against Malack.


Maybe some of his childhood friends got eaten?
This is my favorite theory at the moment. Perhaps Nale had a relationship with one of Malack's children pre-vamp.

[Onyavar]

just an idea.

We know that Tarquin is planning to die of old age. But he's planning on a legacy. Convincing Malack that he's OK with the Death Chamber thing was a sensible move. But business before pleasure, which includes friendship.

Why leave the Empire to Malack if he has a young son who could be raised as his successor? So, he groomed Nale to become just that. And maybe his plans went even further. Maybe Tarquins long time plan was to create an eternal empire for vampirized Nale? Nale would first level up all the way to be a powerful and complex adventurer on his own, and finally get the "gift" from Malack, who would then be superfluous.

Growing up and learning/knowing that no-fun Malack would vampirize him once he had gained lots of class levels, that is good reason to plan Malacks destruction from early on. Maybe Tarquin and Malack thought it would be the right time two years ago, and Nale rebelled against being vampirized for the good evil of the Western Continent Shadow Empire. So, Tarquin and him disagreed - strenuously.

It would make Nale the evil rebel against the supreme evil Tarquin. Also, Tarquin didn't raise his son as a bard (and talked him out of taking levels in that direction) to prevent an early revolt when Nale was even younger.

[Adama]

LG prequel is happening. We've had four hints this year alone of past events.

A once cherished relationship between Nale and Tarquin. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html)

Actually, I think the "once cherished relationship" was Tarquin and his first wife, Nale and Elan's mother, and that that line refers to the fact that Nale is a reminder to Tarquin of what he lost. After all, she was the only one of Tarquin's wives who he had children with, and possibly the only one who survived being married to him.


Malack killed or turned someone Nale liked.

This is my guess. Maybe a childhood friend of Nale's, or someone around the palace who he looked up to but became "inconvenient." It would put an extra spin on why Nale chose to destroy Malack's spawn first, if one of them was the reanimated shell of a former friend or mentor.

[Gift Jeraff]

I think him wanting to kill Malack specifically is just Nale's typical psychopathy. Tarquin has been going out of his way to prevent having more children, on account of how Nale turned out, since he left Elan's Mother (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html). That would mean he was already showing signs of his future self before Malack and the others entered the picture.

Now the source of Nale's psychopathy in the first place is probably where things get interesting, since the Giant refused to answer how Elan & Nale would have turned out if they swapped parents, on account of the answer being a spoiler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12242039&postcount=45).

[Adama]

I think him wanting to kill Malack specifically is just Nale's typical psychopathy. Tarquin has been going out of his way to prevent having more children, on account of how Nale turned out, since he left Elan's Mother (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html). That would mean he was already showing signs of his future self before Malack and the others entered the picture.

Nale ending up a psycho, and having a specific long term grudge against Malack, aren't necessarily exclusive though. Remember that as far as we know, it's not just jealousy that Malack is his father's close friend and ally; As recently as a few years ago, Tarquin was working with a different partner, and probably a different one before that. And Nale definitely seems to make it personal with Malack as opposed to anyone else.

[Amphiox]

Considering the Giant's very adamant statements about children and evil in his work (ie that under no circumstances whatsoever should any child ever be automatically assumed to be evil, without powerful direct supporting evidence on the page, such was what was presented for child Xykon, for example), I would think that any theories that revolve around the premise that Nale was already an evil murderous bastard at the tender age of 9 should be left low down on the ladder of likelihood.

While it is certainly not impossible that something else made young Nale evil before age 9, there really is little actual corroborating evidence for it, in narrative itself (unless you count beating your twin brother on the head while you were both babies to be an act of irredeemable evil depravity), and I will not be considering that likely until I see some evidence of that sort.

The most parsimonious explanation, from what we have seen, is that whatever it was that Malack did back then constitutes an important part of Nale's personal start of darkness.

[Ron Miel]

A once cherished relationship between Nale and Tarquin. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html)

I'm pretty sure that the "once cherished relationship that died painfully" refers to Nale's mother, their originally lovingt marriage, and their divorce.

[The Pilgrim]

I have two theories about what happened with Nale and Malack when he was nine.

1) Malack tipped over someone near Nale, and Nale was outraged that Malack would not tip over him instead. (IE: The usual "taking disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slights").

2) Something actually important that answers to the question about if Elan and Nale would have reversed alignments if they had switched the parent that raised them. (IE: Malack abuse is what set Nale down on the road of being a psycho).

[JCAll]

Considering the Giant's very adamant statements about children and evil in his work (ie that under no circumstances whatsoever should any child ever be automatically assumed to be evil, without powerful direct supporting evidence on the page, such was what was presented for child Xykon, for example), I would think that any theories that revolve around the premise that Nale was already an evil murderous bastard at the tender age of 9 should be left low down on the ladder of likelihood.

While it is certainly not impossible that something else made young Nale evil before age 9, there really is little actual corroborating evidence for it, in narrative itself (unless you count beating your twin brother on the head while you were both babies to be an act of irredeemable evil depravity), and I will not be considering that likely until I see some evidence of that sort.

The most parsimonious explanation, from what we have seen, is that whatever it was that Malack did back then constitutes an important part of Nale's personal start of darkness.

Wasn't there a flashback at one point that was Nale and Elan in a crib with one of their parents chastising Nale for hitting Elan in his under-developed baby skull?

[Thurge Of Ages]

I think its because Nale's first attempt to dethrone Tarquin was stopped by Malak. Like trying to kill him in his sleep and Malak prevented it.

[Cavenskull]

Wasn't there a flashback at one point that was Nale and Elan in a crib with one of their parents chastising Nale for hitting Elan in his under-developed baby skull?
Somewhere around here... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

[Giggling Ghast]

I wouldn't be surprised if, during Nale's childhood, Tarquin didn't constantly use the threat of feeding Nale to Malack if he ever got out of line.

"Don't want to eat your vegetables, son? Then I guess I better send you off to uncle Malack!"

[chillmynaga]

One thing that occurred to me that may mean nothing. Nale is a Fighter/Mage/Rogue multi-classer which means that he may have studied and learned from all of his father's teammates except for Malack.

It might be that Malack did something to one of Nale's teachers.

Quite a stretch on no info but what the hey.

Very interesting idea. I believe he is a Fighter/Sorcerer/Rogue and his father had his accomplices, Cat lady (Rogue), Brute Guy (Fighter), and Masked robed guy (Sorcerer) to teach him. Malack was probably also his teacher who he did not care for and that is why he did not also multiclass to cleric.

[F.Harr]

Whatever it was, it caused Nale to invest heavily in a ring of +20 throwing.

[Red XIV]

While this may be a prequel hook, I don't think whatever happened when Nale was 9 is very important - I think it's just Rich's way of reminding us how evil and dangerous Nale is.

Most people were seeing Nale as a bit of a buffoon lately (there had been a lot of grumbling of the "let's just be done with Nale and go back to the real villains" variety), and I think this latest development means to tell us that he's still a very credible threat.
Lately? Nale's been portrayed largely as a wannabe for almost a decade in real-world time.

[skim172]

Wasn't there a flashback at one point that was Nale and Elan in a crib with one of their parents chastising Nale for hitting Elan in his under-developed baby skull?

You could argue that sibling rivalry among infants is not necessarily indicative of a deep, innate malevolence.

If it is, then my sister and I became supervillains decades ago.

[JCAll]

You could argue that sibling rivalry among infants is not necessarily indicative of a deep, innate malevolence.

If it is, then my sister and I became supervillains decades ago.

COOL! Do you get to wear capes?

[Hopeless]

Anyone wondered if Nale had a nanny?

He was very young when his parents split up now since Tarquin couldn't look after him and his party members certainly couldn't, that suggests he had a nanny brought over to help raise him.

Now if Malack was assumed responsible for her death then that would give Nale every reason to want Malack truly dead...

[Jay R]

You could argue that sibling rivalry among infants is not necessarily indicative of a deep, innate malevolence.

If it is, then my sister and I became supervillains decades ago.

Just villains. You don't become supervillains until the radiation accident.

[F.Harr]

But they still get capes, right?

[Jay R]

But they still get capes, right?

Quoting from the leading authority on the subject:

"No capes! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy2YhxXn7NY)"

[Syncrogti]

Just villains. You don't become supervillains until the radiation accident.

Actually it is presentation, according to MegaMind.
https://www.google.com/search?q=megamind+presentation&client=firefox-a&hs=4jM&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=MdX6UY-LA-jc4APZ2IGoCg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1137&bih=795

[F.Harr]

Apparently, when he was 9, Nale figured his life was in constent danger from Malack. And he never changed his mind.

[Nymrod]

Malack implied he was Nale's teacher. Nale may be a product of those lessons? Maybe Malack forced Nale to do something evil that has scarred him and made him the vengeful creature we see today, like sacrifice a friend

[Liliet]

I'm in the "prequel hook" team.
Nale has been ridiculous for so long that it's just time to show just why exactly he is like that. It was enough for him to be "just funny" at the time of his first appearance but now he needs some more explanation.
I like the idea of Zzd'tri being a mentor and father figure for him. It would give some sweet insight into the quiet drow, explaining his loyalty - I mean, seriously, with Nale's hiring methods, the reaction of Pompey and Leeky seems most reasonable.
I like the idea of young Nale being capable of caring for someone at young age - I don't believe in the whole "villain from birth" ridiculous thing.
I like the idea of killing Malack's children being justified as some sort of revenge - maybe for Malack having killed/turned someone Nale didn't want him to.
I LOVE the idea of a prequel book about Tarquin's team and Elan's family.

[IW Judicator]

Maybe Malack took the last piece of birthday cake at Nale's 9th birthday party. He's a vampire, he doesn't even EAT cake, but he took it anyway. Revenge will be mine!

He wouldn't even have to eat it. Just simply saying something like...oh...I don't know..."You have to wait until the end of the parade. Then you can have some cake." This IS Nale we're talking about...and we do have precedent for cake being delayed (in and of itself a rather terrible crime).

[Lombard]

Show us on the doll where he touched you, Nale

[MReav]

Nale murdered Malack and as many of Malack's children/creations as there were unwanted sprinkles on his ice cream.

[BrometheusJones]

Im going to guess that when its revealed, the answer to the question at hand is going to be because Malack told Nale to eat his vegetables before he could have any dessert... and that, was the true source of Nales undying hatred and animosity towards Malack.

[Guy Incognito]

Wasn't there a flashback at one point that was Nale and Elan in a crib with one of their parents chastising Nale for hitting Elan in his under-developed baby skull?

Well, yes, but there's a big difference between the Terrible Twos and homicidal megalomania.

Xykon was setting zombies on the local wildlife before he'd left grade school.