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cartel1982
2013-07-29, 12:37 PM
Hey everyone. This is my first post to the forums and I hope I don't step on any toes. You seem like a nice, accepting, and knowledgeable community, and I hope I can be a good citizen.

In a couple of months, I'm going to start running the Pathfinder "Kingmaker" adventure path, but for various reasons that I don't want to argue, I want to run it in 3.5 with a few modifications instead of Pathfinder.

There have been some posts on these forums about this before, but the questions have been about backporting Pathfinder monsters and encounters, and whether or not the city and kingdom building systems will work. This isn't what I'm concerned about.

My question is what guidelines and modifications to the character creation process should I have?

Here's my thoughts and questions so far:

The Pathfinder core book allows for more powerful characters than just the Player's Handbook and DM's guide do, so I should allow some extra 3.5 books, but throwing the library doors open and allowing every last splatbook results in overpowered and terribly unthematic builds. So I'm looking for suggestions as to what 3.5 expansion material should be permitted for a game that wants some power but doesn't want to feel too thematically different from a core book game. And since my players aren't experts at min-maxing 3.5 characters, any suggestions (or links to suggestions) as to what extra material is really essential for a fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard etc. would be appreciated.

Pathfinder gives characters higher stats through racial bonuses than 3.5 does. I want to use a point buy system for stats. What point buy should I use? I want this game to be a challenge, but I also want my players to have a good chance of survival. My instinct is to go with whatever is one tier above Standard Point Buy from the DM's guide.

The two elements I want to backport from the Pathfinder rules are the Combat Maneuver system and the system for handling class and cross-class skills. But, I want to use the 3.5 size chart (since a Halfling having only a -2 to grapple an Ogre is just silly in my mind) and I want to use the actual list of 3.5 skills, rather than all the combined Pathfinder skills that allow every skilly character to have everything they want at max level.

However, buying 3.5 skills results in some tough choices, and while I like that, it probably means nobody will pick any Craft, Profession, or Knowledge skills, and just skimming over the Adventure Path books, those look to be pretty valuable. I'm thinking about handing out 2 extra points at first level that can only be spent on Profession, Knowledge, or Craft, and also making some skills class skills for everyone -- I'm thinking Listen, Spot, Ride, Swim and Climb.

In Pathfinder (if I'm remembering correctly) a Wizard gets 2 spells of his or her choice at each new level, whereas in 3.5 all spells must come from spellbooks and scrolls. Are there enough sources of new knowledge in the Kingmaker adventures as written, or am I going to have to fudge in some extra books? I'm considering allowing the Wizard to start the game with some level 2 spells of his choice in his spellbook.

Anyway, that's just off the top of my head, I'm really interested in any experience people have running 3.5 wilderness sandbox games, and any experience anyone has running Kingmaker in particular and any particular skill selections, feat selections, character choices etc. that make a big difference in survivability.

BowStreetRunner
2013-07-29, 01:10 PM
The first piece of advice I would offer is that you should not mix setting-specific materials. During design they were not intended to work together and would not have been play tested together, so will be more likely to clash. Pick no more than one setting - Forgotten Realms, Eberron, etc. - or just stay with the non-setting specific books.

EDIT: Here is what I would recommend to start.

Core books to use:
Players Handbook 1 & 2
Dungeon Masters Guide 1 & 2
Monster Manual 1-5
Magic Item, Rules, & Spell Compendiums
Complete Adventurer, Arcane, Champion, Divine, Mage, Scoundrel, & Warrior
Races of Destiny, Stone, the Dragon, the Wild
Frostburn, Sanstorm, Stormwrack, Dungeonscape, Cityscape
Libris Mortis, Lords of Madness

Others to consider:
Manual of the Planes, Planar Handbook
Fiend Folio, Fiendish Codex 1 & 2
Expanded Psionics Handbook, Complete Psionic
Book of Exalted Deeds/Book of Vile Darkness
Draconomicon, Dragon Magic
Drow of the Underdark
Tome of Magic
Tome of Battle
Magic of Incarnum
Heroes of Battle
Heroes of Horror
Miniatures Handbook
Savage Species

Fouredged Sword
2013-07-29, 01:12 PM
Core + Completes + Compendiums (spell and item) + Heros of Battle is a good place to start. Then tell your players that you will consider bringing in other books if they have something in particular that you want to include. This means that you can include stuff the players are interested in without having to open all doors.

As for point buy, 36 makes for high stats, but stats are just stats, and they are not actually all that important, so don't worry about breaking the game.

Wizards get 2 spells per level for free in 3.5.

For pathfinder like skills in 3.5, give everyone Able learner for free. You can choose to go with 4X skills at 1st level or +3 to class skills, pick one not both. If you want craft and knowledge skills, go with the +3 to class skills.

cartel1982
2013-07-29, 02:07 PM
Thanks for the advice.

Like I said, I'm going to have 4 or 5 players. Any advice for me to pass on as to what classes they should start with? I don't think I'm going to offer much in the way of non-standard races (unless a strong case can be made for them being good or neutral PCs in a "standard" setting) but non-standard classes are OK. I definitely don't want to bother with psionics, the only time I ever even hear people talking about psionics is in the context of ridiculously abusive builds.

So lets say I've got a party that consists of
high-BAB physical character
skills and sneak attack character
divine caster
arcane caster
other

what classes, level-1 builds should I be pointing my players toward?

My PCs aren't really into digging into online forums and maxing out their builds, so if there's something in that pile of books that's going to make a big survivability difference for someone, I'm probably going to have to point them in the proper direction.

Further comments appreciated!

Fouredged Sword
2013-07-29, 02:13 PM
Well, a high Cha and diplomacy class is nice. Paladins do the whole city building thing fairly well.

cartel1982
2013-07-29, 02:26 PM
Paladins... hmmm... is this a campaign that's going to present a lot of morally ambiguous situations that will make players want to strangle the Lawful Stupid guy?