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TheEnigma
2013-07-29, 03:21 PM
Hello all,

I'm playing a Paladin and I'm trying super hard to not be "that guy", but it's getting difficult.

I'm going for more of the warrior-monk style Paladin who follows their code but doesn't enforce it on anyone else. The problem is that other members of the party are getting increasingly involved in blatantly evil things.

For example, one member of the party recently summoned a high level demon and asked it for a favor. The demon accepted this in return for a favor from the character later. I had to deliberately metagame my paladin to the other side of town for this, as I can't really see how a paladin, even an easy-going one, is going to allow someone to form a pact with an evil outside.

Secondly, the party rouge recently got a hold of an artifact from an evil cult that was specifically formed to destroy my god and his followers. The player is hiding the artifact from me, which I can live with, but if my paladin ever finds this, I feel like it isn't a situation the character could let go. My paladin would be fine with the character using evil artifacts, but an artifact that's meant to destroy their god is pushing it.

Furthermore, one of the other characters is constantly plotting ways to "kill the paladin if we need to", which is getting extremely irritating. My character has never stopped this character from doing anything and I don't enjoy feeling like I can't trust my teammates.

How can I accurately play this character without trying to metagame around party conflict or being "that guy"? I don't really enjoy intra-party conflict and would prefer to let other players have their chaotic-netural actions. Am I overreacting as the paladin?

PersonMan
2013-07-29, 03:31 PM
"Hey, guys, we need to talk about some things that have been making me have less fun playing D&D with you all than I'd otherwise have..."

Really, just talk to them about it. If no other option presents itself (if, say, 3 of them want to go Evil and you're the only other one), discuss with your DM a fitting way to have your character leave and make one more fitting for the party.

Khedrac
2013-07-29, 04:18 PM
Have to agree that it is discuss and probably change toons.

From the sound of it they are trying to to rub your character's face in it, which suggests they will be reasonable when it's discussed, however they may be doing purely to see how far they can push it with a paladin int he party... It's also worth finding out what the DM's position is - he may not want to run for an evil party either.

Jay R
2013-07-30, 10:14 AM
You are under-reacting as the Paladin.

I suspect that they are trying to make you react. But whether they are or not, you need to talk to the other players.

It sounds like they are not willing to get along with a Paladin, which means your only options are to stop playing or to start attacking them.

But that's a guess. I can afford to guess, because I'm not there. You can't afford to guess.

Talk to them.

Flickerdart
2013-07-30, 10:37 AM
Why are you playing a paladin in a party that regularly trucks with demons and evil artifacts? You'll be much better off with something like a Crusader, Knight, or Cleric, none of whom are required by their class features to be a stick in the mud.

tensai_oni
2013-07-30, 11:01 AM
Why are you playing a paladin in a party that regularly trucks with demons and evil artifacts? You'll be much better off with something like a Crusader, Knight, or Cleric, none of whom are required by their class features to be a stick in the mud.

It's not about being stick in the mud, it's about the rest of the party being blatantly evil.

Speaking of which, this game sounds like someone didn't get the memo. If the game was supposed to be for evil characters, it's you. If it wasn't - it's the other players.

There's also a third option - if the DM didn't specify alignment restrictions, you're playing with an inexperienced or naive DM who really should learn to know better. Evil characters can be played in a way that is subtle and works well with non-evil party members, but that's almost never the case.

So you either go all evil party, or just ban evil characters/behaviours outright. You're always better off that way in the end.

The Fury
2013-07-30, 11:07 AM
Why are you playing a paladin in a party that regularly trucks with demons and evil artifacts? You'll be much better off with something like a Crusader, Knight, or Cleric, none of whom are required by their class features to be a stick in the mud.

From what I gather the demons and evil artifacts were new developments that were unexpected. In most cases Paladins don't have to be sticks in the mud either, as long as nobody's doing stuff that's blatantly evil. Stuff like consorting with demons, secretly keeping evil artifacts and plotting your character's murder.

Yes, talking to the other players is probably a good idea. That said, if they don't change their characters' behavior it's probably time for you to have the Paladin written out of the campaign and make a new character.

Flickerdart
2013-07-30, 11:15 AM
It's not about being stick in the mud, it's about the rest of the party being blatantly evil.
A Good character of any of the classes I listed would be able to travel with a blatantly evil party perfectly fine, and not have to metagame himself to the other side of town simply to avoid unwanted conflict.

tensai_oni
2013-07-30, 11:21 AM
A Good character of any of the classes I listed would be able to travel with a blatantly evil party perfectly fine, and not have to metagame himself to the other side of town simply to avoid unwanted conflict.

Umm, no.

A Good character in an Evil party would not mesh well without gross out-of-characterness for everyone involved.

Scow2
2013-07-30, 12:07 PM
Umm, no.

A Good character in an Evil party would not mesh well without gross out-of-characterness for everyone involved.
Unless said Good character had INT 3-5 and wisdom not much better. Both of which I highly doubt.

The Fury
2013-07-30, 12:15 PM
Umm, no.

A Good character in an Evil party would not mesh well without gross out-of-characterness for everyone involved.

Most alignment arguments in a specific campaign would require the DM's final word, so it's unfair for me to make any claims on the subject.

I'll do it anyway though: A "good" character that idly watches the rest of the party act blatantly evil or even joins in will almost certainly lose their "good" alignment.

Razgriez
2013-07-30, 12:21 PM
Talk it over with your DM and if it keeps up, with the gaming group. If your character actually also see's these things in game, then speak up in character. Just because you're worried about being called Lawful Stupid, does not mean your character should willingly act stupid for the sake of party unity, especially when the party is seeking to exclude you.

A Paladin who is about to unleash his Holy Hand grenade's in blade/hammer/etc form against a player regularly committing evil, such as trying to destroy your faith's deity, is not being Lawful stupid, he's doing his job. Because once you know they are doing evil, you've got three options: Try to convert them over to the side of good (or at least north of the evil line), Smite, or Leave over irreconcilable difference, gather a group of Good alligned warriors together, and hunt down your former companions, and bring them in... dead or alive.


Why are you playing a paladin in a party that regularly trucks with demons and evil artifacts? You'll be much better off with something like a Crusader, Knight, or Cleric, none of whom are required by their class features to be a stick in the mud.

:smallsigh: This is sadly both A. Terrible advice, and B. one of the most commonly cited against Paladin.

Tell me, what does the "Stick in the mud" Code do beyond being a way to challenge your role playing skills? Overall "roll play" wise, it only realistically bans the use of a few more things than the average Good alignment character, and the things that weren't already banned from Good in general, is generally greatly frowned upon. To me, the "Stick in the mud" line comes off more as a complaint about not being able to commit evil out of convenience.

Also, each of the other classes you mentioned may not have a written down code, but if their alignment is still Good, well, the strife is still going to be there, if not more so.

Good Cleric? Remember, if the deity is unhappy with his/her follower's work, they can simply decide to grant no spells (or worse. Hi there Aleax of an angry god!). Oh, and they too have a code of conduct as well. Under the Ex-Clerics section in the PHB, it specifically says, clerics are expected to follow their deities code of conduct, and that failing to uphold in either compatible alignment/actions or duty to their faith, means loss of all powers except for equipment proficiencies, until they either atone, or convert to a new god befitting their change in alignment (which I believe, also requires an atonement.

-Good Knight? Still has to be Lawful in some way, and even if the knight is not particularly religious, the code of honor still requires them to uphold certain views. A Good knight seeks to cause others to live righteous lives.

-Good Crusader: A crusader's zeal to his/her deity and/or cause, is the source of their spiritual strength. The second he hears "The rogue has the artifact that's designed to destroy your god", the rogue will be lucky if the crusader demands it turned over/destroyed, once and waits a round for a response. And that's provided the crusader doesn't just go all out at the first hint of evil in the party. We're talking Warhammer 40,000 Space Marine/Grey Knights/ Inquisition level zeal here. The only way to avoid this, is if the player is specifically using the alternate adaptation in a way to avoid such conflict, plays an evil crusader, or RPs a crusader very very poorly.


And even more pointedly, why is it ok then in so many cases for someone to play a Chaotic "Neutral" in a mostly good party. But its not ok for someone who wants to play a Good character seeking to redeem others in a party of those south of the Good alignment line?

NikitaDarkstar
2013-07-30, 12:47 PM
Talk to your group, seriously. And as the others have said, be prepared that you MAY need to change characters (or go into grey or blackguard PrC's).

The main warning flag I see however is that the evil artifact is specifically designed to kill your characters god, I assume that the DM decided what the artifact was and what it does, if so he can't be completely unaware that it will at some point force a reaction out of your character.

But really, just talk to everyone, figure out what's going on and see if some changes can't be made so all of you can have fun.

TheEnigma
2013-07-30, 01:22 PM
You are all right. The only real solution is to talk to the group. I don't feel I am reacting enough as the Paladin, but I don't want to control what other players can do. Half the group is playing good aligned characters, including an Oracle who also follows the same god as my Paladin. There is a true netural summoner (who made the deal with the devil), two chaotic-netural rouges, and one chaotic-stupid gunslinger. The DM didn't set any alignment restrictions, but "not-evil" is implied since the over-arching quest is supposed to be heroic.

I think the thing with the summoner could actually make a cool plot hook if we work as a party to defeat the devil he summoned before the devil calls on his favor. This could work with the "redeem people" Paladin goal. The person playing the summoner is also new to RPGs and I don't want to go all scary-paladin on him for his first game.

The artifact was given out just last session, so I may wait to see how that plays out. The character hoarding it is a chaotic-netural rouge whose flaws are curiosity and hoarding things. The good-aligned Magus also knows this artifact exists, so I'm hoping his character tells my character because this is one thing that can't really slide. I'm thinking the DM probably has some plot hook going here as he knows my character will care about this. There's going to be an irreversible problem if the rouge won't give up the artifact.

I'm going to talk to the gunslinger's player and ask him to tone down the "let's kill the Paladin." No one else in the party agrees with him and I don't even think his charater has a reason to hate my character. This player and I get along well enough, so I think he'll ease up on it if I ask.

Half the party is good aligned and I don't think playing a Blackguard would work, as the problem would be in the opposite direction.

If this doesn't work and things don't improve, I'll probably just reroll as a bard. The party will loose their only tank, but oh well. I really love Paladins and they are my favorite class, but I just don't see a Paladin working if this contiunes. I don't want to be someone who controls what other players can do through my character and I don't enjoy intra-party fighting, so that is really the only option.

Razgriez
2013-07-30, 02:18 PM
You shouldn't let it stop you from playing a class you enjoy though, Enigma. Play your class, and if there is a bit of intra-party fighting, well, try to deal with it the best you can. It's ok to call out evil, when it's evil. That's the real goal of a paladin. It's not about "My Version of Good is better than than your version of Good". It's about being united behind a common cause to fight against evil. You've already listed some great ideas, you just need to follow through with them.

Baron Of Hell
2013-07-30, 02:53 PM
Only one thing you can do. Kill them all. You know you want to. Just do it, do it for good. Yeah it would feel so gooood.

kyoryu
2013-07-30, 03:25 PM
How can I accurately play this character without trying to metagame around party conflict or being "that guy"? I don't really enjoy intra-party conflict and would prefer to let other players have their chaotic-netural actions. Am I overreacting as the paladin?

You're not overreacting. There's a weird dynamic going on in this game by your description.

Why would the GM have the thief get an artifact specifically targeted at you and your god? That seems like the GM is deliberately aiming at your character.

At any rate, I think an OOC talk about "hey, what is this game going to really be about" is called for here. If everyone really wants to play an evil game, then just go with it or don't play.

And as far as "non-evil" goes, your description of a number of the actions of your party would suggest, to me, that they've already slipped over that line. Making a deal with a devil is *not* a 'neutral' act, unless done under extreme duress (which would imply the player wouldn't necessarily mind a little pushing the other way). Plotting to kill a paladin is *not* neutral. It sounds a bit like some of your fellow PCs fall into the "I'm not evil, because I'm not twirling my mustache!" bucket.

Baron Of Hell
2013-07-30, 03:35 PM
Are these guys considered evil in game? What is your detect evil telling you? If they are not coming off as evil a talk is needed to figure out why not. Well a talk is needed regardless.

Flickerdart
2013-07-30, 06:55 PM
{{scrubbed}}

Sith_Happens
2013-07-30, 07:07 PM
Snip

Yeah, it sounds like the Evil-or-getting-there characters are the odd ones out in this situation. When you bring it up, make sure the other Good characters' players are part of the discussion.

The Fury
2013-07-30, 07:31 PM
And as far as "non-evil" goes, your description of a number of the actions of your party would suggest, to me, that they've already slipped over that line. Making a deal with a devil is *not* a 'neutral' act, unless done under extreme duress (which would imply the player wouldn't necessarily mind a little pushing the other way). Plotting to kill a paladin is *not* neutral. It sounds a bit like some of your fellow PCs fall into the "I'm not evil, because I'm not twirling my mustache!" bucket.

I think I should point out that the "Deal with the Devil" thing was done by an inexperienced player, so I think that giving a little wiggle room might be needed for that case. Besides a Paladin needing to help his friend undo a terrible mistake would be a cool plot. Though the plotting to murder the Paladin comes off as that player picking on the Paladin because he's a Paladin.

Another thing with regards to the, "You should have been something other than a Paladin argument": I agree that playing a Paladin when everyone else is playing evil characters is both stupid and disruptive. That said, when you're told that the party consists of a TN Summoner, two CN Rogues, a CN(?) Gunslinger and the rest of the party are good-aligned being a Paladin seems perfectly sensible. That is until the devil-summoning and murder plots show up, but how could anyone see that coming at character creation?

Baron Of Hell
2013-07-30, 07:45 PM
A paladin's Code bars them from associating with evil characters at all, so no, your roleplaying skills don't get challenged because the mechanics say "nope, move along, you can't work out your differences because you must be an inflexible jerk". You just have to dance around a horribly thought out cardboard cutout of "rules" or lose your unimpressive class features.


Is this for DnD or Pathfinder?

Pathfinder has the below quote that allows paladins to work with evil PCs

Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

The Fury
2013-07-30, 07:48 PM
Baron, the character classes present in the party seem to suggest that it is Pathfinder.

Mando Knight
2013-07-30, 08:07 PM
You are all right. The only real solution is to talk to the group. I don't feel I am reacting enough as the Paladin, but I don't want to control what other players can do. Half the group is playing good aligned characters, including an Oracle who also follows the same god as my Paladin. There is a true netural summoner (who made the deal with the devil), two chaotic-netural rouges, and one chaotic-stupid gunslinger. The DM didn't set any alignment restrictions, but "not-evil" is implied since the over-arching quest is supposed to be heroic.

I think the thing with the summoner could actually make a cool plot hook if we work as a party to defeat the devil he summoned before the devil calls on his favor. This could work with the "redeem people" Paladin goal. The person playing the summoner is also new to RPGs and I don't want to go all scary-paladin on him for his first game.

The artifact was given out just last session, so I may wait to see how that plays out. The character hoarding it is a chaotic-netural rouge whose flaws are curiosity and hoarding things. The good-aligned Magus also knows this artifact exists, so I'm hoping his character tells my character because this is one thing that can't really slide. I'm thinking the DM probably has some plot hook going here as he knows my character will care about this. There's going to be an irreversible problem if the rouge won't give up the artifact.

I'm going to talk to the gunslinger's player and ask him to tone down the "let's kill the Paladin." No one else in the party agrees with him and I don't even think his charater has a reason to hate my character. This player and I get along well enough, so I think he'll ease up on it if I ask.

Half the party is good aligned and I don't think playing a Blackguard would work, as the problem would be in the opposite direction.

If this doesn't work and things don't improve, I'll probably just reroll as a bard. The party will loose their only tank, but oh well. I really love Paladins and they are my favorite class, but I just don't see a Paladin working if this contiunes. I don't want to be someone who controls what other players can do through my character and I don't enjoy intra-party fighting, so that is really the only option.

You aren't being "that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0224.html) guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html)," the more chaotic-bent players in the game are being that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html) guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0697.html). And possibly the DM, if he allows them to go along this route without some kind of reward for you trying to stop them.

My advice? Get them to trust you. Remember that they aren't as dedicated towards being Good as you (and since the problem characters are all Neutral, they really don't see the point to it). Be an example to them. Chastise them calmly and gently when they screw up, and help them correct their mistakes, rather than just pointing out their flaws. The goal here is to make them think of you as a valued ally, so that when they do something that causes a rift, they're the ones that feel bad.

Just as important as talking with your party is talking with the GM. If he's worth playing a Paladin under, he'll work with you to tie the Neutral/Chaotic members' actions together so that they'll realize that trying to work against your ideals can be a Very Bad Thing, and not because they have a Paladin in the party... but that those things are Very Bad Things in and of themselves and that because you're a Paladin, you fight Very Bad Things... and if the world loses its champions of Good, what will come next are Even Worse Things.

Scary Paladin is something that should happen when it needs to, when it's necessary to remind people that there's nothing funny about Truth and Justice. (And the American Way (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/WesternAnimation/SupermanVsTheElite)) The scariest thing about Paladins is that when the cause is just, they never give up, ever. Maybe withdraw for a while when the odds are impossible even for them, but even then they don't give up.

Scow2
2013-07-30, 08:09 PM
First off - are they actually evil, or just "Doofus' of Convenience"?

Yes, the rogue has an evil artifact meant to kill the Paladin's deity. The question is - is the rogue doing anything to move it toward that end? I wouldn't go smite-happy if someone merely happens to have a sinister device he uses to make sandwiches. It would be both amusing and ironic for the Rogue to be using said artifact in a manner counterproductive to its aims. As for the wizard? Is he a diabolical wizard, or just trying to make pacts with the most convenient outsiders because that's what wizards do?

TheOOB
2013-07-31, 01:53 AM
I could go on for awhile, but I'll give my most important piece of advice. The adventure always comes first. No matter what happens during an adventure, you need to keep the team together until the adventure is over, no matter how pissed other characters make yours. You can discuss, both character to character, and player to player if need be, what happened during the adventure after the fact, and your character can even leave the party and you roll a new one if they prove to be too incompatible, but during an adventure, keep the unity.

DragonclawExia
2013-07-31, 06:11 AM
I'll be honest with you. It actually sounds like they're trying to mess with you for some reason.


Probably for the hell of it too, because almost everyone subconsciously dislikes the Paladin Class at some level. It's like having an Active Police Officer on duty with...non-police officers.


But as of now, they just seem to be trying to mess with you. Talk with the DM if you can, because I don't see how it's going to go well if my suspicious are correct. Hell, the DM might be in on it.


Honestly, I think they're intentionally trying to make you fall. It's...a rather common hazing ritual for Paladins, in my experience.

KnightOfV
2013-07-31, 11:32 AM
Only one thing for the Paladin to do to jerk-butt party members. Don't trust them if they are untrustworthy. Don't befriend them if they mock you. And yes... confront them when they do Evil actions. I don't see how ANY good character could let that god killing artifact thing go.

And then put your life on the line for them every single time you enter combat. Be the best party member they have ever seen. The first to go through the possibly booby trapped door. The first to run to heal them when they drop. The first to volunteer for the most dangerous jobs. Why? because you are a Paladin and that is what you do. When you agree to work with people, you throw yourself in all the way because you have a responsibility to get them through alive (because your good) and a responsibility to see whatever righteous mission you are on succeed (because you are lawful). Be so useful and so selfless that they have no choice but to respect you when they realize that out of all the greedy self serving party members, YOU are the only one who would go back for them if they get stuck in a bad place.

If they make this impossible (as it sounds like they are trying to) have your Paladin walk off in disgust and reroll a CN anything and refuse to ever put your neck on the line for these clowns. They deserve it.:smallamused:

kyoryu
2013-07-31, 12:23 PM
Probably for the hell of it too, because almost everyone subconsciously dislikes the Paladin Class at some level. It's like having an Active Police Officer on duty with...non-police officers.

Heh, yeah. The best time I had with playing a Paladin was a character that didn't even want to be called a Paladin. He thought of himself as a mercenary - just one whose employer happened to be a Lawful Good deity.

If you really want to play an inoffensive Paladin, read the Dresden Files and use Michael as your template.

The Fury
2013-07-31, 12:44 PM
Heh, yeah. The best time I had with playing a Paladin was a character that didn't even want to be called a Paladin. He thought of himself as a mercenary - just one whose employer happened to be a Lawful Good deity.

If you really want to play an inoffensive Paladin, read the Dresden Files and use Michael as your template.

To be fair to Enigma, they're playing a Paladin who's been very accommodating. Maybe even super-accommodating. With my own limited understanding of the situation I'm not sure what else can be done.

kyoryu
2013-07-31, 01:13 PM
To be fair to Enigma, they're playing a Paladin who's been very accommodating. Maybe even super-accommodating. With my own limited understanding of the situation I'm not sure what else can be done.

Oh, granted, it seems like he's bending over backwards to be non-disruptive.

I'm just tossing out Michael as a generic template to use to get around the worst of the "I hate Paladins!" feelings.

Magesmiley
2013-07-31, 03:15 PM
Hello all,

I'm playing a Paladin and I'm trying super hard to not be "that guy", but it's getting difficult.

I'm going for more of the warrior-monk style Paladin who follows their code but doesn't enforce it on anyone else. The problem is that other members of the party are getting increasingly involved in blatantly evil things.

For example, one member of the party recently summoned a high level demon and asked it for a favor. The demon accepted this in return for a favor from the character later. I had to deliberately metagame my paladin to the other side of town for this, as I can't really see how a paladin, even an easy-going one, is going to allow someone to form a pact with an evil outside.

Secondly, the party rouge recently got a hold of an artifact from an evil cult that was specifically formed to destroy my god and his followers. The player is hiding the artifact from me, which I can live with, but if my paladin ever finds this, I feel like it isn't a situation the character could let go. My paladin would be fine with the character using evil artifacts, but an artifact that's meant to destroy their god is pushing it.

Furthermore, one of the other characters is constantly plotting ways to "kill the paladin if we need to", which is getting extremely irritating. My character has never stopped this character from doing anything and I don't enjoy feeling like I can't trust my teammates.

How can I accurately play this character without trying to metagame around party conflict or being "that guy"? I don't really enjoy intra-party conflict and would prefer to let other players have their chaotic-netural actions. Am I overreacting as the paladin?

Hmmm, well the first one you've got no in-game knowledge of, so I think that ignoring it for now is the right move.

In regards to the artifact, you probably need more info from the DM - is it infamous to your order? Is it an active mission to seek out and destroy it? Obviously if you don't know about it, you can't react to it, but if it does show up, you probably need to deal with it. That doesn't mean that you have to confront the character right when you see it. Especially if it would turn out badly for you without putting the artifact in better hands. Bide your time, wait until you get to someplace where you can get NPC allies (maybe from your order or from aligned clerics or other followers) to help you. If it is the threat that you've indicated, there should be a very long list of those willing to help you deal with the problem. You could even play things sneaky if you're uncomfortable with a confrontation (or fairly sure that you'd lose) and set the guy up to deal with the NPCs while you're on the other end of town.

The guy who is looking to kill the paladin if he gets out of hand... if your character is aware of this, the other guy clearly needs to knock it off or face the consequences. Again, be smart about this and stack the deck in your favor as much as possible. Is making threats against a holy paladin a crime in any locales? If it is, make sure that there are friendly NPCs nearby who can overhear these sorts of things. If he's got some criminal acts in his past, providing anonymous tips might work too. Or for that matter even choosing to do the confrontation in a location that plays to your strengths. If a paladin demands a duel of honor (or something) in a very public place to account for his unchivalrous actions, its liable to be noticed. Even if the other guy declines, everyone knows that he's been being a scumbag. Use the local law to help. Let your order know that if you disappear that they should hunt this guy down, as he is probably the one that did you in.

Another idea you might think about... Detect Evil before providing beneficial magics. Make this a very clear policy to the party - and that you risk losing your abilities if you aid evil beings, so you've decided to be careful.

In short, playing a paladin doesn't mean playing dumb. Use your strengths. One of the more overlooked ones is that typically NPCs WILL favor a paladin over other types. Use this.