Quickest way to get a 825gp onyx?

[Mr Adventurer]

So, in my D&D game I play a level 14 Factotum. We just defeated an Ancient Blue Dragon, and I am going to raise it as a Zombie Dragon and we are going to tool around on it like total badasses. I'm going to get it a ring of fire resistance, then light a bonfire in its skull so its eyes are literal flames.

Anyway! We're in the middle of a desert and I don't have any onyx; and I need to raise my Caster Level by 3 in order to be able to animate the corpse. The DM has ruled that Zombie Dragons per Draconomicon are the result when you raise a dragon corpse as a zombie with Animate Dead, with no other caveats. Crucially this means its HD are not doubled. We have loads of treasure from the dragon's hoard. I can prepare one 5th level spell each day from the Wizard list, which is enough for Animate Dead or a Lesser Planar Binding. Spell Enhancer (Wiz 4) will take care of two caster levels, so I need a way to get +1 CL in a hurry. We aren't using any setting-specific books (so no magic tattoos from Faerun).

Any ideas?

[Rebel7284]

Probably Teleport to the nearest big city ....

For increasing caster level, there is a 4th level spell in one of the faerun books I think that gives +1 CL as a standard action on a spell you cast NEXT round.

[Mr Adventurer]

Probably Teleport to the nearest big city ....

For increasing caster level, there is a 4th level spell in one of the faerun books I think that gives +1 CL as a standard action on a spell you cast NEXT round.

Mystic Surge, I think - but I wouldn't be able to stack it with Spell Enhancer, as the Mystic Surge bonus would apply to the Spell Enhancer spell.

Also we aren't using setting-specific books - thanks for reminding me, I'll update the OP.

[Flickerdart]

Create Magic Tattoo (level 2 sorc/wiz spell) has +1 CL as one of its uses.

[Mr Adventurer]

Create Magic Tattoo (level 2 sorc/wiz spell) has +1 CL as one of its uses.

It's FR specific isn't it?

[Madara]

Are feats viable, because I know two which Increase CL by 3, but one of which is in an Eberron book and one in Dragonlance Campaign Setting...

Well, that pretty much drops those options. :smallsigh: Sorry.

[mregecko]

Do you have ANY onyx, at all?

Give it to one of your party members. Then buy it from them for 825gp.

There is no definition of how to gauge worth on gemstones in D&D. They are worth whatever someone is willing to pay for them. Therefore, if you are willing to pay 825gp for it, it's an Onyx worth 825gp.

Shoot, you'd probably pay more for it if it allowed you to cast your spell, right? :-P

(I can't help with the +1 CL)

[Rebel7284]

It's FR specific isn't it?

Reprinted in SpC as I recall or maybe Complete [x].. pretty sure it's SpC.

The main issue is that create tattoo itself requires expensive material components too. :P

[Lightlawbliss]

Use prestidigitation to gather "all onyx in that square" do it enough you will probably get a peace of onyx you can see (keep the rest just in case, onyx dust might be worth something). Have someone in your party "buy it from you" (with money to be returned latter) and that small peace is now "worth" whatever they "paid you for it". If that amount is 825 gp then it is worth that much. Congrats, spell component for time.

one of my DM's allowed Aid another to be done if you both can cast the spell.
can anyone else in your party cast animate dead?

[Flickerdart]

Reprinted in SpC as I recall or maybe Complete [x].. pretty sure it's SpC.

The main issue is that create tattoo itself requires expensive material components too. :P
It's reprinted in the SpC, yes. And the component isn't such a huge deal - at level 14, 100gp is nothing.

[Mr Adventurer]

Oh yeah! So it is! Ok, that'll take care of the other +1 Caster Level (as long as I can find or fabricate some tattoo needles and ink of course, which may be a whole other problem...). EDIT: As long as I can hit that DC 20 Craft check...

The DM absolutely will not buy the "it's worth what you paid for it" argument, which is a bad argument and you should feel bad for making it ;).

[Lightlawbliss]

The DM absolutely will not buy the "it's worth what you paid for it" argument, which is a bad argument and you should feel bad for making it ;).

by RAW it is completely allowed.

Do you have fabricate? I gave you a method of getting less valuable onyx dust and small shards before.

[Flickerdart]

by RAW it is completely allowed.

Do you have fabricate? I gave you a method of getting less valuable onyx dust and small shards before.
There is a difference between cost and worth. Just because you paid 825gp for the onyx doesn't make it worth 825gp.

[Mr Adventurer]

Do you have fabricate? I gave you a method of getting less valuable onyx dust and small shards before.

I do have Fabricate. However I don't think there is onyx dust lying around in most places, that seems like a bizarre assertion!

[Lightlawbliss]

There is a difference between cost and worth. Just because you paid 825gp for the onyx doesn't make it worth 825gp.

Let's skip the massive "what people will pay and what people will take" and technically meaning of worth and cost discusion that is bound to happen out of this and skip directly to RAW. Can you show something in RAW that makes a gem not worth what the seller will sell it for and the buyer will buy it for.

(PS: my gather up dust and some form of fabricate method still works)

Edit: there is dust of everything everywhere. the question is amount. For most purposes the amount just plain isn't worth it. I wouldn't be surprised if you had to clean a very large area (good this prestidigitation lasts an hour) to actually get the amount of onyx you need in some places.

[Failed Phantasm]

Have you got a cleric with you? It's a tad on the dangerous side, but you could always plane shift to the Plane of Earth and get gemstones of all kinds straight from the source. Your DM might not like the idea, though.

[Alienist]

by RAW it is completely allowed.

Do you have fabricate? I gave you a method of getting less valuable onyx dust and small shards before.

There is a subtle but important distinction between "the rules don't say I can't" and "the rules say I can".

What you're talking about is not RAW, but RBO - rules by omission.

A houserule that papers over a gap where the system has left something undefined is probably easier to swallow for most people than a house rule which contradicts the obvious and natural reading of an existing rule, but make no mistake, they are both houserules.

[mregecko]

There is a difference between cost and worth. Just because you paid 825gp for the onyx doesn't make it worth 825gp.

I disagree, there is no difference between cost and worth. Especially when it comes to things that have no defined "worth"/valuation in D&D.

Consider a creature on the elemental plane that eats gemstones for breakfast. Do you think an onyx that might fetch 825gp in some Prime Material city is worth the same to them?

Or in a city made of onyx, it might take 1 ton of onyx to be "worth" 825gp.

"Worth" is a relative term for any item that doesn't have explicitly defined guidelines for valuing it in terms of currency (like magic items, weapons, certain trade goods, etc).

So, if someone is willing to pay 825gp for the tiniest amount of Onyx -- which you absolutely are, because you need it badly in your current situation -- then it's worth 825gp.

[Mr Adventurer]

Let's skip the massive "what people will pay and what people will take" and technically meaning of worth and cost discusion that is bound to happen out of this and skip directly to RAW. Can you show something in RAW that makes a gem not worth what the seller will sell it for and the buyer will buy it for.

(PS: my gather up dust and some form of fabricate method still works)

Edit: there is dust of everything everywhere. the question is amount. For most purposes the amount just plain isn't worth it. I wouldn't be surprised if you had to clean a very large area (good this prestidigitation lasts an hour) to actually get the amount of onyx you need in some places.

My GM will not allow either of these things, so please don't discuss them in this thread. May I suggest you start a new one?

[Mr Adventurer]

Have you got a cleric with you? It's a tad on the dangerous side, but you could always plane shift to the Plane of Earth and get gemstones of all kinds straight from the source. Your DM might not like the idea, though.

We don't. Perhaps I could Planar Bind something - Oh! Actually! We just found a Figurine of Wondrous Power - Obsidian Steed! That can PS me! Hell yeah, awesome. I'm gonna ride into the planes on a steed crafted of obsidian, then I'm gonna rob a Prince of Earth and high-tail it back to the Prime. (Don't worry, this kind of thing is just how we roll.)


There is a subtle but important distinction between "the rules don't say I can't" and "the rules say I can".

What you're talking about is not RAW, but RBO - rules by omission.

A houserule that papers over a gap where the system has left something undefined is probably easier to swallow for most people than a house rule which contradicts the obvious and natural reading of an existing rule, but make no mistake, they are both houserules.

The main thing of course is "DM says I can't".


I disagree, there is no difference between cost and worth. Especially when it comes to things that have no defined "worth"/valuation in D&D.

Consider a creature on the elemental plane that eats gemstones for breakfast. Do you think an onyx that might fetch 825gp in some Prime Material city is worth the same to them?

Or in a city made of onyx, it might take 1 ton of onyx to be "worth" 825gp.

"Worth" is a relative term for any item that doesn't have explicitly defined guidelines for valuing it in terms of currency (like magic items, weapons, certain trade goods, etc).

So, if someone is willing to pay 825gp for the tiniest amount of Onyx -- which you absolutely are, because you need it badly in your current situation -- then it's worth 825gp.

The main thing of course is "DM says I can't".

[Flickerdart]

I'm gonna ride into the planes on a steed crafted of obsidian, then I'm gonna rob a Prince of Earth and high-tail it back to the Prime.
I'm pretty sure you could just find an onyx gem of the appropriate worth just lying around in the dirt somewhere.

[Lightlawbliss]

If DM says u can't, ask him what methods come to mind that he will allow.

[Mr Adventurer]

I'm pretty sure you could just find an onyx gem of the appropriate worth just lying around in the dirt somewhere.

Maybe - of course there's not so much "dirt" as "endless suffocating rock" so it probably won't be easy either way ;).


If DM says u can't, ask him what methods come to mind that he will allow.

Nah, that's copping out.

[Rebel7284]

Is there any issue with the method I suggested? Teleport into a large city, buy onyx and a scroll to teleport back. Or are you just trying to see if another solution is possible?

[Mr Adventurer]

Is there any issue with the method I suggested? Teleport into a large city, buy onyx and a scroll to teleport back. Or are you just trying to see if another solution is possible?

No, that'll work. I'll use charges from the Staff of Passage to do Greater Teleport. We're a bit short on Teleports otherwise. :)

[Urpriest]

As mentioned, you have access to 5th level spells, enough to Teleport or Plane Shift to a big enough city easily. If you're completely broke, do a few spells for hire, Fabricate in particular can bring in big bucks for the right people.

[Mr Adventurer]

Int 18 +4
Fox's Cunning +2
Master's Touch +4
----------------
Total +10

Take 10 = DC 20 Craft (painting) for the Magic Tattoo.

I can Fabricate some tattoo needles. But I need tattoo ink worth 100gp.

[Urpriest]

Int 18 +4
Fox's Cunning +2
Master's Touch +4
----------------
Total +10

Take 10 = DC 20 Craft (painting) for the Magic Tattoo.

I can Fabricate some tattoo needles. But I need tattoo ink worth 100gp.

Again, easy enough to buy in a major city.

[Darth Stabber]

The old/price worth consideration, eh. I have kinda fixed it in my game. There is a cartel of gnomish gem merchants that have a tight stranglehold on the continents gem market. Through careful research they have precisely determined the value of various gems commonly used in spells, and any one selling for less ends up in bind, because of this research though, the PCs can determine the exact amount that counts. Purely a houserule, but in explaining it I left a really neat hook to hang a future story on. Actually, I may do that after the current story arc.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If you have the time to rest you can use Lesser Planar Binding. Bind a medium earth elemental and ask it to retrieve the gem for you.
It's an easy task so it shouldn't be that hard to convince it.

[Mr Adventurer]

Each Greater Teleport from the Staff of Passage costs 6820gp. Better if I can do it for free!

[Mr Adventurer]

If you have the time to rest you can use Lesser Planar Binding. Bind a medium earth elemental and ask it to retrieve the gem for you.
It's an easy task so it shouldn't be that hard to convince it.

The issue is, what skills do Earth Elementals have that would help it locate a big onyx underground? I don't even think they can see down there!

[Zanos]

You need 1 real rank in Craft(Drawing) or Craft(Painting) or something similar to cast create magic tatoo. I'm looking at the PGtF version, though.

[Urpriest]

Each Greater Teleport from the Staff of Passage costs 6820gp. Better if I can do it for free!

How much do you need to use Greater Teleport? You can use one of your spell-like abilities to cast Teleport, after all. Is the nearest city too far away? Or are you worried you're insufficiently familiar with it? Remember, the city doesn't have to be very big to have something like this.

[GlorinSteampike]

[QUOTE=mregecko;15716871]Do you have ANY onyx, at all?

Give it to one of your party members. Then buy it from them for 825gp.

There is no definition of how to gauge worth on gemstones in D&D. They are worth whatever someone is willing to pay for them. Therefore, if you are willing to pay 825gp for it, it's an Onyx worth 825gp.

[QUOTE]

Does anybody really play like this? This is like saying you can have unlimited amounts of dragon urine in your spell component pouch.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There actually is a way to gauge the worth of gemstones. It's called appraise. :smalltongue:

[Lightlawbliss]

Does anybody really play like this? This is like saying you can have unlimited amounts of dragon urine in your spell component pouch.

you can (and do) have "unlimited amounts of dragon urine". If your wanting to make a point about not doing something, the spell components pouch is NOT a good argument. most games it ends up being essentially a mundane bag of holding with unlimited volume that can only hold certain things and is only sold fully loaded.

do people really play like that? I know people that do that without second thought.

[Mr Adventurer]

How much do you need to use Greater Teleport? You can use one of your spell-like abilities to cast Teleport, after all. Is the nearest city too far away? Or are you worried you're insufficiently familiar with it? Remember, the city doesn't have to be very big to have something like this.

Only one Teleport per day, in the same slot as my Animate Dead. The staff doesn't do normal Teleport. This on top of familiarity issues... ;)

We're in a desert, only one city nearby.

[Skrobo]

Cant you guys summon / bind a planar ally and get the job done?

When in doubt call the Angel Summonerand bmx bandit.

[Mr Adventurer]

You need 1 real rank in Craft(Drawing) or Craft(Painting) or something similar to cast create magic tatoo. I'm looking at the PGtF version, though.

Dammit, you're right in the SpC too. Back to the drawing board!

[Mr Adventurer]

Cant you guys summon / bind a planar ally and get the job done?

When in doubt call the Angel Summonerand bmx bandit.

I can do Lesser Binding. What creature would do the trick?

[Skrobo]

Bind a succubus (they have 6 HD if I recall correctly), send her to buy a gem from a city (teleport at will, shape change) and deliver it to you.

[Darth Stabber]

you can (and do) have "unlimited amounts of dragon urine". If your wanting to make a point about not doing something, the spell components pouch is NOT a good argument. most games it ends up being essentially a mundane bag of holding with unlimited volume that can only hold certain things and is only sold fully loaded.

do people really play like that? I know people that do that without second thought.

I run a game like that without the slightest. I have them pay for the spell component pouch, and then neither I not the player worry about it ever again. If they target an enemy mage's spell component pouch with say shatter, then I might start caring, as I will take that as evidence that they care about spell components, but until that point it is not really worth the hassle to keep track. At low levels it might be worth some minor narrative tension, but honestly that would be worth doing once if ever.

As far as I am concerned that thing is always full of anything that doesn't have a listed cost (other than fabricate components), and players can buy unmarked "expensive components", the value of which can be applied to any expensive component of any spell they have. The dread necro in my current game does have 2000gp worth of onyx in one of her bags, and I doubt she will eat through it before epic levels. I have considered making all expensive components just require that much gold instead, just to simplify accounting, but have yet to implement it (might include a 5-15% service charge for the convenience). My honest assessment of the situation is: I am making this up as I go along, why shouldn't I let them have a simple thing like this (and everyone in the party is a caster other than the swordsage).

[Karnith]

you can (and do) have "unlimited amounts of dragon urine".
What spell has dragon urine as a material component? Not sure if this should be in blue or not...

[Darth Stabber]

What spell has dragon urine as a material component? Not sure if this should be in blue or not...

I don't know, but googling dragon urine has some interesting* results.

*for certain values of interesting

[Sith_Happens]

I do believe I have just happened upon a truly ingenious* solution to this dilemma. You see, after reading the OP I suddenly realized that I don't know what onyx actually looks like. Like many people might, I went to Wikipedia to remedy this problem... And was helpfully informed that onyx is a form of silica.

Gee, if only you had access to a ready supply of silica (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand) and a convenient means of changing a material from one form to another (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm)...


* Where "ingenious" is defined as "likely to get you smacked with a DMG."

[Alex12]

It's not the quickest, necessarily, but you might be able to use the Crafting rules (or fabricate, I guess) to engrave appropriate "necromantic symbols" or something onto smaller amounts of onyx.
Explain that it would increase the effective value of the onyx for purposes of necromancy (say the symbols channel necromantic energy more efficiently or something), but not the actual value in terms of selling it (depending on how necromancers are viewed in the campaign, obviously). After all, you're still using the Craft rules for increasing the value of stuff, this just explains how.