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cameronpants

2013-07-29, 05:58 PM

While juxtaposing on the humdrum magic items out there, I had a thought. It started small and grew over the course of 48 hours into this. Please, PEACH.

Note: this was copy/pasted from another thread (an OOC game thread) where I originally suggested it. Also, it is copied using my phone. Apologies.

cameronpants

2013-07-29, 05:59 PM

Magic Items with Class

Everything is composed of spirits. Thousands, millions of them. A massive, invisible but tangible web of infinitely powerful strands connect these spirits into a shifting mass of raw energy. When these webs get large enough, they spill over into the world of the material, and become objects, emotions, thoughts, and beings.

These webs, or Hierarchies, define just about every characteristic of an entity. Its shape, size, disposition, motivation, color, speed, velocity, density...

In living beings, these Hierarchies have a few powerful spirits using the rest to keep them aloft. They drain energy from the spirits around them to enhance themselves.

In emotions, ideas, and other ephemereal entities have a few moderate spirits, but no weak ones or powerful ones to guide or uphold them. Without being incorporated by another Hierachy, they usually drift apart, back into the void.

In objects, these Hierarchies are predominately weak and moderate spirits, all bound together in an organized, clear pattern.

Every entity has one or more Resonances. Creatures, especially sentient ones, can have a plethora of Resonances. Objects usually only have a handful, and ephemeral entities likely only have one or two.

These Resonances determine with what other Hierarchies an entity can interact with. An object with a powerful Resonance of Greed used by a creature with a powerful Greed resonance has a chance to grow and learn with them.

As an object interacts with other entities with similar Resonances (not always the same, but similar) it can improve its own spirits, increasing their power and changing the shape of its Hierarchy. This process is called the Naming Ritual. The Naming Ritual grants the object a Truename and allows it to interact with other Truenamed entities.

This creates Artefacts- magic items of such power they can alter the course of history, destroy nations, and turn simple peasants into legendary warriors.

A normal item- the Hierarchy of an enchantment wrapped around an item, sheltering it and improving it- is not the same thing. An Arefact is a physical representation of magic- not magic improving an existing item.

MECHANICS

How it works

Any item can be an Artefact. The higher the Level of an Artefact, the more power it can provide to the user and the more abilities it has access to.

Artefacts have levels- from 1 to 10- in a class or prestige class. Artefacts may have multiple classes or prestige classes, but this is very rare. They ignore all prerequisites for prestige classes.

The class affects the Artefact in the following way:

HD: The item gains a number of points of hardness per level based on the HD of the class. d4= +1, d6= +2, d8= +3, d10= +4, d12= +5. Also, the item gains a number of HP equal to the average roll of the HD per level (a 6th level Artefact with a d8 hit die gains 27 HP).

Saves: Added as a bonus to its saving throws when they are made. (the item still uses the saving throws of the owner, but with its class's base saves as an Item bonus)

Skill points per level: Skill points per level help determine the number of skills that can be increased by spending charges.

Charges: All Artefacts have a number of charges equal to twice their class levels. A character can benefit from no more charges than they have character levels. If the items they are attuned with have more charges, in total, than their character level, the user may spend 5 minutes choosing which abilities to gain. Once per day, a character may take a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity to shift around up to 1/2 CL charges.

Ability Cost
------- ------
Exceptional* 1
Feat* 1 per 3 (min 1)
Supernatural 2
Spell-Like 1 or 2 (1 for 1/day, 2 for max uses)
Ability Bonus** 1 per +2 bonus (Max Linked Base Save)
Enhancement*** 1 per 2 points of BAB
Special:****:
Full Lvl
Part 3/4 CL (min 1)
Half 1/2 CL +1
Skill Bonus***** 1

*: Tiered abilities (Sneak Attack, etc) or feats require 1 point per 2 iterations (So sneak attack 1d6 to 2d6 is 1, 3d6 to 4d6 is 2, etc)

**: The ability onus is linked to the Base Saving Throws of the item. You can gain an enhancement bonus to an ability score equal to the base save, rounded down to the nearest even number if odd. If the item's fortitude save is +3, it can grant a +2 bonus. See the chart below for which ability scores can be boosted by each save.

Base Save Stats Applicable
-----------------------------------------
Fort Str, Con
Ref Dex, Int
Will Wis, Cha

***: Only applicable to weapons, armor, shields, toolkits, or other tools. The enhancement bonus applies to attack and damage for a weapon, AC for shield or armor, skill check for a toolkit, or to the function of the item for other things.

****: 'Special' covers spellcasting, manifesting, initiating, binding, shadowcasting, truenaming, grammarie, meldshaping, etc. You cannot gain two 'special' abilities from the same item, nor can you gain more than one full or partial casting from your total attuned items.

Cost for Special:
----------------
Level Full Part Half
1 1 1 1
2 2 2 2
3 3 3 2
4 4 4 3
5 5 4 3
6 6 5 4
7 7 6 4
8 8 7 5
9 9 7 5
10 10 8 6
11 11 9 6
12 12 10 7
13 13 10 7

*****: Skill bonus is equal to BAB, granted to Skill Points number of skills. (An item with 4 levels of Rogue can grant a +3 bonus to 8 skills for 1 charge!) Alternatively, you can increase the bonus by half (BAB x 1.5, rounded down, min 2) to half skill points (that same rogue can grant +4 to 4 skills.) As a final option, can grant double BAB to 1/4 Skill Points (the same rogue can grant +6 to 2 skills).

Note: When you use your Charges to gain Spellcasting from an Attuned item, you gain a separate track of spellcasting. Even if the Item grants Wizard spells and you are a wizard- you gain a separate track. The level of casting you gain is equal to the Item Level. For each Charge you spend above and beyond the normal cost, you gain an additional spellcasting level, to a maximum of 1 per 3 full item levels (one extra Charge at 3rd and above, up to 2 at 6th and above, and finally up to 3 extra Charge for 3 additional levels of spellcasting at 9th).

Also, when an Item advances a Partial or Half caster that has a delayed start, your first level is effectively when the spellcasting is gained. If you have an item with 6 levels of Loremaster and the item advances Spellthief casting, it would cost 4 Charge to cast as a 9th level Spellthief, with the option of spending up to 2 extra charge for a total of 11th level Spellthief casting.

Casting of any kind is limited to your HD.

Example Item:

Centurion's Shell, The Vermilion Cape
Mundane Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216387) 4
Attunement Cost: 20
HP 24, Hrd 16 (Cape)
Saves +4/+4/+4
Charges: 8
Slot: Shoulders
Limitation: If worn with medium or heavy armor, take the ACP as a penalty to the Charges granted as well.

Available Abilities:
------------------------------
Ability Name (# of Charges)
------------------------------
+4 to 6 skills or +6 to three skills or +8 to one skill (1)
Defiant Stand 6+Con rounds (1)
Guardian's Glare 20ft (1)
Smite Evil (1d6/-1 20ft) (1)
Track/Urban Track (1)
Resourceful Craftsman 60* (2)
Warning Shout 20ft (1)
+4 Enhancement to Str, Con, or Wis (2)
+4 Enhancement to Dex, Int, or Cha (2)
+4 Enhancement to Int, Wis, or Cha (2)

*Use of this ability permanently reduces this value until it is expended.

So, a 9th level character with this item could get:

+4 to Listen, Spot, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Hide, and Move Silently
Defiant Stand 6+con rounds per day
Smite Evil (1d6/-1 20ft)
Resourceful Craftsman
+4 to Strength
+4 to Dex

from this single item, using all 8 charges.

Attunement Points

Every character who can perform the Naming Ritual (in our game, potentially just us and other legendary warriors and wizards) gains a number of Attunement Points based on their level. They gain a bonus number of Attunement points equal to their Charisma score, to a max of their base attunement points.

Level Attunement Points
-------------------------
1 0
2 2
3 5
4 9
5 15
6 22
7 31
8 42
9 55
10 75
11 95
12 120
13 150
14 185
15 230
16 280
17 330
18 380
19 430
20 480

Different Artefacts cost a different number of Attunement Points to Attune with. One may only use the Charged features of an Artefact after they Attune with it. Here are the Base Costs based on the level of the item:

Item Attunement
Lvl Cost
------------------
1 2
2 6
3 12
4 20
5 30
6 42
7 56
8 72
9 90
10 110
This value is modified in the following ways:

You Add a value based on the levels of advancement it grants a spellcasting track (An item with Wizard 6 would cost +36, an Entropomancer 4 advancing Cleric casting would cost +4, and an Elocater 7 advancing Psychic Warrior manifesting would cost +16.)

Item Full Partial Half
Level Caster Caster Caster
------------------------------
1 1 1 1
2 4 3 2
3 9 7 3
4 16 11 5
5 25 16 7
6 36 22 9
7 49 29 12
8 64 37 15
9 81 46 18
10 100 56 22

Thus far, the most expensive Artefact I can find would be a PrC with 8+int skills per level and full 10/10 spell progression which advanced a full caster (wizard, cleric, etc). This 10th level item would have a total Attunement Cost of 260. A character would need to be a minimum of 15th level with a Charisma of 30, or 16th level, to Attune the item and enjoy it.

I guess I left a couple things out.

The abilities of the item are its class features. Those are the powers you can wield
A character spends Charges from the item to gain the ability. A character can benefit from no more Charges than his Character Level. If the example character was 6th, he could use a total of 6 Charges worth of abilities; all from one item, or three from two items, etc.

Attunement should take a few hours- perhaps a number of hours equal to the item's level.

The extra 4 attunement points come from the item having 4 levels with 4+ int mod skills.

Edit: to answer more questions. I would say once attuned, the abilities are static. You can alter the powers granted from an item in one of two events: re-attuning with the item takes 1 hour per item level and allows you to change up to half (rounded down) charges. The other way is when the item levels up- in this case, all charges may be reassigned.

Two more example items I threw together on my phone:

Judge's Hammer, Adamantine Warhammer
(Fighter 10, 110 Attunement Points)
(+40 Hardness, +55 HP)
20 Charges
Bonus Feats: Up to 6 (1c per 2 feats)
+10 enhancement bonus (1c per +2 bonus)
+8 Str, Con, or Wis (1c per +2 bonus)
+4 Dex, Int, or Cha (1c per +2 bonus)
+4 Int, Wis, or Cha (1c per +2 bonus)
+10 to 2 skills or +15 to one skill (1c)

Deepstrike, the Death Shard
MW Dagger
(PF Assassin 3, 15 Attunement Points)
(+9 Hardness, +13 HP)
6 Charges
Death Attack (1c)
Sneak attack 2d6 (1c)
Poison expert (1c) (includes +1 bonus vs poison)
Uncanny dodge (1c)
+2 Enhancement Bonus (1c)
+2 Str, Con, Wis (1c)
+2 Dex, Int, or Cha (1c)
+2 Int, Wis, Cha (1c)
+2 to eight skills, or +3 to four skills, or +4 to two skills (1c)

cameronpants

2013-07-29, 06:00 PM

Idea for advancing Artefacts:
Whenever you gain experience, you may divvy it up between items you are attuned with as well. Once an item gains a number of experience equal to its next level's Attunement Cost x250, it levels up and loses that much experience. To level up the Judge's Hammer to its full level, from 0th to 10th, would take 110, 000 experience.

This is balanced to 3.5. If using Pathfinder, find the amount an item needs below:
Fast: Attunement Points x 2500
Average: Attunement Points x 3750
Slow: Attunement Points x 5000

Okay, so. In each setup, you can get two items to max level with some change left over, or more items to a lower level. Cool. But what if you sink xp into an item you lose, no longer use, or don't want anymore?

If the item is lost, don't fret! If you are still attuned to the item, you may use three separate abilities to find it. Firstly, you can cast Locate Object at will to detect it. Secondly, you can cast Know Direction and Location as of you were standing where the item is. Lastly, you can cast a modified Circle Dance to know its direction from you; the spell has mo chance of failure, no max distance, and if the item is on a different plane, you find out which one. If you lose an item you are not attuned to but have put experience into, well, you're out of luck.

But never fear! You can drain experience out of other Artefacts and Mystic Locations and into your own attuned items! The ratio is 1:2, but you may never more than double the experience that is already in an item this way, and it cannot level-up an item.

If you drain exp from an item you put points into yourself, you only lose 10% from transfering to a new attuned item. The item cannot level-up in this manner.

If you do not have enough free Attunement Points to keep an item Attuned that levels up (and thus has a higher attunement cost), it becomes unbound. However, re-attuning takes 1/4 the usual time once you do have enough (by unbinding another item, gaining a level, or increasing your charisma score).

Amechra

2013-07-29, 06:16 PM

cameronpants

2013-07-29, 06:33 PM

When you spend a charge, how long do you gain the benefit for?

Is it "upon attuning to the artifact, expend charges, and the benefits thus gained are what you get out of that artifact, while someone else might attune to it and pick different choices?"

Also, the "stat bonus" (should be ability score bonus) from the item is really, really vague.

I would suggest saying that you can get a Strength or Constitution boost equal to the Fortitude save, a Charisma or Wisdom boost equal to the Will save, and an Intelligence or Dexterity boost equal to Reflex.

Once attuned, charges are immediately assigned. The user gains those abilities as long as the item is equipped/in use.

I will clarify the ability score part, and change the ability scores accessable from each save.

Other than those, what do you think?

RFLS

2013-07-31, 08:18 AM

Cheiromancer

2013-07-31, 09:54 AM

I'm finding this idea hard to follow, but it seems to be gaining approval, so I'll try to focus in on where I am getting lost. Here are three things I don't understand:

Also, the item gains a number of HP equal to the average roll of the HD per level (a 6th level Artefact with a d4 hit die gains 27 HP).

Do you mean d8? 6d4 should yield 15 hp.

Skill points per level: The Artefact has a number of Charges equal to its Skill Points per Level + 1/2 its class level.

Centurion's Shell, The Vermilion Cape has 8 charges. It's a 4th level Paladin, so that should be 2 (skill points per level) + 2 (half of 4) = 4. Where does 8 come from?

Every character who can perform the Naming Ritual (in our game, potentially just us and other legendary warriors and wizards) gains a number of Attunement Points based on their level. They gain a bonus number of Attunement points equal to their Charisma score, to a max of their base attunement points.

Level Attunement Points
-------------------------
1 0
2 2
3 5
4 9
5 15
6 22
7 31
8 42
9 55
10 75
11 95
12 120
13 150
14 185
15 230
16 280
17 330
18 380
19 430
20 480

I don't understand this. Say you are a 4th level wizard with a 12 Charisma. How many attunement points do you get?

cameronpants

2013-07-31, 11:10 AM

Hmm.....the Attunement points left me a little confused. Are they cumulative every time you level, or....? It doesn't look like there's any way to get enough, otherwise. Other than that, it looks solid, and as long as everyone's on the same playing field, shouldn't be too game breaking.

No, those attunement points are not cumulative. There should be more than enough; a 5th level item (halfway through its progression) usually costs around 30 attunement points. A 10th level character (halfway through their progression) has 75 + Cha Attunement points. That's enough for at least three 5th level items, if not four. I think there's way more than enough to go around. Why would you think otherwise?

I'm finding this idea hard to follow, but it seems to be gaining approval, so I'll try to focus in on where I am getting lost. Here are three things I don't understand:

Do you mean d8? 6d4 should yield 15 hp.
Yes. That's my bad.

Centurion's Shell, The Vermilion Cape has 8 charges. It's a 4th level Paladin, so that should be 2 (skill points per level) + 2 (half of 4) = 4. Where does 8 come from?
Follow the link to the Mundane Paladin. It has 6+int skill points per level.

I don't understand this. Say you are a 4th level wizard with a 12 Charisma. How many attunement points do you get?
18

Possible revisions/changes:

Items gain 2 charges per level, no longer dependant on Skill Points / Level.
Items have no increase to Attunement cost from Skill Points / Level
Limitations come in three grades (Weak/Rare, Moderate/Uncommon, Major/Common) to grant 1, 2, or 3 charges.
Non-casting progressions (Binding, Meldshaping, etc) cost 1 per 2 effective levels (Like Sneak Attack).
Feats change to 1 charge per 3 feats (1 for up to 3, 2 for 4-6, etc)
Skill Bonuses from items now come from BAB and Skill Points / Level. (See Below)

Possible new skill workout: +Base Attack Bonus to a number of skills equal to Skill Points / Level. Add 50% Base Attack Bonus if you reduce the number of skills by half, to a minimum of 1 skill. (A 10th level item with BAB 10 and 4+ skills per level can, for 1 charge, grant +10 to four skills, +15 to two skills, or +20 to one skill.)

RFLS

2013-07-31, 11:23 AM

No, those attunement points are not cumulative. There should be more than enough; a 5th level item (halfway through its progression) usually costs around 30 attunement points. A 10th level character (halfway through their progression) has 75 + Cha Attunement points. That's enough for at least three 5th level items, if not four. I think there's way more than enough to go around. Why would you think otherwise?

I misread >.< I thought the attunement points were based only on Charisma, not amount for level + Charisma. So that makes a lot more sense.

Cheiromancer

2013-07-31, 11:37 AM

Possible new skill workout: +Base Attack Bonus to a number of skills equal to Skill Points / Level. Add 50% Base Attack Bonus if you reduce the number of skills by half, to a minimum of 1 skill. (A 10th level item with BAB 10 and 4+ skills per level can, for 1 charge, grant +10 to four skills, +15 to two skills, or +20 to one skill.)

Thanks for the clarification re attunement points. Though adding your charisma score to anything is a very odd mechanic. Cha mod, maybe. Using BAB to improve skill points/level also strikes me as very odd.

cameronpants

2013-07-31, 11:49 AM

Thanks for the clarification re attunement points. Though adding your charisma score to anything is a very odd mechanic. Cha mod, maybe. Using BAB to improve skill points/level also strikes me as very odd.

I chose Charisma because A) It's force of personality (a defining characteristic and important facet of ones Hierarchy), and B) chose its score because, otherwise, I'd have to double/triple/etc add Cha Mod to get to the point I would like. Using the multiplication makes the difference between a high Cha and a low Cha much higher than I wanted.

I'm trying to extrapolate attributes usually applied only to PCs directly from classes to magic items. I don't want to come up with brand new formulas or other progressions; I want to plug-and-play any Class or Prestige Class I fancy. Swiftblade? Hell yes, multiclass it with Shining Blade and have a wicked Lightning Sword. I want each part of a class (BAB, Saves, Skill Points, Class Skills, class features, and HD) to mean something to the Item. If you have another suggestion on how to scale Skill bonuses/Ability Score Enhancements from an item with using Saves, BAB, and Skill points, let me know!

Edit: Skill bonuses now incorporate BAB and Skill Points per Level. I'm toying with the idea of using 1/2 Cha x 1/2 CL to determine bonus attunement points. Also, a feat that allows a character to benefit from CL + 2 charges instead of CL charges, and also provides Cha Score attunement points.

DragGon7601

2013-08-04, 12:27 AM

cameronpants

2013-08-06, 12:53 PM

When ever I read Soul Eater I always think "How could I put these powers (turning in weapons & working together) into D20?"... I think this thread brings me one step closer. I had figured the Weapon would have to be a follower gained with Leadership / cohort. And there would have to be some sort of resonance skill check for some of the powers. I already had a spell point based variant in my head for all classes to gain sp/caster level, so having a weapon that added spells known/boosted spell casting ability wouldn't be to much of a jump in power. I would like away of putting this on par with standard items...

Reading the fluff I was reminded of the Full Bringers from bleach. They follow a similar.. err.. philosophy for how/why there powers work. Them, Soul reaper swords and Soul Eater weapons would use similar rules, so that's how I got to thinking of the SE weapons as they would naturally have class levels.

Ooh. That's almost got be inspired to run a PbP Bleach-style game... I really like that idea.

...nope, totally inspired. I've got a basic story to boot.

I never looked at this system that way before- I just kind of took a look a the question "in terms of the game, how does a character 'gain levels'? How does he go from being low-level to high-level in a short amount of time?" and I came to rest on Spirit Hierarchies.

Thank you, DragGon. That hit me square in the awesome.

/SelflessPlug (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15768838)