I guess rebuilding the Gates is out then

[Ill Made Knight]

The only viable options for rebuilding the gates appear to be either Lirian and Dorukan being freed then resurrected, or V and Redcloak teaming up to rebuild them (once they've gain the required levels). Durkon as a vampire will now level too slowly to rebuild the gates during the remaining story.

[Steward]

Why would Redcloak work to rebuild the gates?

[Ill Made Knight]

Why would Redcloak work to rebuild the gates?

Because of stuff we don't know about the gates yet.

[zimmerwald1915]

Durkon as a vampire will now level too slowly to rebuild the gates during the remaining story.
Not necessarily. Malack had trouble finding "appropriate challenges". The Order, however, has no shortage of inappropriate challenges, and not the kind that are too weak to grant them XP. Xykon alone is light years beyond an "appropriate challenge" for the Order, even with Durkon's vampire powers. So, in all likelihood, is the MitD. They are likely to remain so throughout the comic's run, though the Order might level high enough to consider a lone Redcloak an "appropriate challenge" at some point. Not that they'll ever encounter Redcloak alone.

The IFCC, Tarquin and his team, whatever monsters are guarding Kraagor's Gate, Serini herself...the list goes on. I would have no trouble buying that Durkon could during the story level to a point where he is able to help reconstruct the Gates...if that is where the story leads. It might not.

[Adama]

The only viable options for rebuilding the gates appear to be either Lirian and Dorukan being freed then resurrected, or V and Redcloak teaming up to rebuild them (once they've gain the required levels). Durkon as a vampire will now level too slowly to rebuild the gates during the remaining story.

Lirian and Dorukan would still require Redcloak being on board, because he's the only cleric we know of who can cast True Resurrection.

[Ill Made Knight]

Eh, there could be other level 17 Clerics around, or they could buy a scroll. However I don't know of any other characters who are likely to be in proximity to the rifts who will be of the appropriate level, and who are clerics. Seems like Redcloak/Lirian or bust.

Durkon is level 14, 1-2 levels below V. Given how slow Malack has levelled it seems strange Durkon could gain enough levels. Not in time for the story to end. The few foes who would be an appropriate challenge are likely to either kill them (Xykon), or be one offs (big bads in the final battle/s- Xykon). I guess some monsters in the upcoming Gate adventure... but that's still like 1 chance to level basically, and as his team levels with him the challenge required goes up and up. For Durkon to gain 7 levels in time seems wholly unrealistic.

[137beth]

Given how slow Malack has levelled it seems strange Durkon could gain enough levels.
Malack hasn't gone adventuring. Durkon has, and will in the rest of the series. So no, it is not strange at all.

[Ill Made Knight]

Malack has been around 200 years, and spent a good chunk of it as an adventurer (by all indications longer anyone in the order did), they seem to have been in constant quests and battles. This is just plain false.

[Belkar<3]

The Order still has several levels to go, I think, before they can seal the rifts with divine and arcane, but they also have to get Durkula and V back. It's not out of the question.

[Ill Made Knight]

The Order still has several levels to go, I think, before they can seal the rifts with divine and arcane, but they also have to get Durkula and V back. It's not out of the question.

Durkon has 7 levels to go. 7 Levels that will be far harder to gain than the 5 he's gained since the comic started. And now he's battling against an adjusted level. It's effectively impossible.

[Amphiox]

Durkon has 7 levels to go. 7 Levels that will be far harder to gain than the 5 he's gained since the comic started. And now he's battling against an adjusted level. It's effectively impossible.

That depends on how long Durkon will remain a vampire.

Which is something we do not know.

[NerdyKris]

spent a good chunk of it as an adventurer

Has he? We have no indication of what Malack has done with his unlife. For all we know, he only adventured one or two times with Tarquin prior to forming the plan. It's entirely possible Malack has spent more time as a temple priest, using his various positions to feed without arousing suspicion.

[Amphiox]

We only know that it took epic spellcasters to research the gate crafting spell.

We don't know if it will take epic spellcasters to cast the gate crafting spell.

If they can recover Lirian and Durokan's souls and communicate with them, and be told exactly how to cast the spell, it might be easier and require fewer levels.

And, of course, there's still the mechanic of the Soul Splice. Splice Lirian to Durkon, Durokan to V and boom, gate rebuilt done. Who knows, maybe you could even do it by splicing both to V, or even both to Roy (he's got the INT and WIS to support both and there's nothing saying that you have to be yourself a spellcaster to have a spliced soul cast a spell for you.)

Finding a way to do a Soul Splice without the IFCC's intervention would be an obstacle, but from a narrative standpoint, not an insurmountable one.

[Ill Made Knight]

1) Redcloak in SoD told Xykon they would both need to be epic to cast the gate creating spell. Not research, or else Redcloak would have been spending the last 20 something years researching, and they'd have no problems. Especially with access to Dorukan and Lirian's souls and bases to find more info. There is no reason to think non-epics can build the gates.
2) Tarquin tells us of years spent adventuring, with Malack (who we see in flashbacks). This idea he didn't go adventuring is absurd. We also see flashbacks of some of their adventures (or hear about them). Just a bizarre conclusion to draw.

[Geordnet]

Eh, there could be other level 17 Clerics around, or they could buy a scroll.

Well, if there aren't any other level 17 Clerics around, why would there be scrolls written by them available on the open market? :smallconfused:

[David Argall]

Why would Redcloak work to rebuild the gates?
Assuming all 5 gates were destroyed [and the world doesn't end, a possible but not definite risk.], Redcloak & X might rebuild a gate. However, this will require much time and effort, something that most villains [and most heroes for that matter] prefer to avoid. So they have been trying the easier method of capturing a gate.
The details are unclear, but the Dark One knows all the details of gate construction, and can tell them to Redcloak. So if team Evil survives the destruction of the last gate, they may head back to Azure City and in 20 years have the gate they want.

[Ill Made Knight]

Well, if there aren't any other level 17 Clerics around, why would there be scrolls written by them available on the open market? :smallconfused:

Ones who used to live a long time ago for eg. We don't know there are none, but there are none who are likely to be in proximity to the gates during the story bar those ones. We've seen scrolls for higher level spells available, by no means should we assume no high level clerics/wizards exist.

[137beth]

2) Tarquin tells us of years spent adventuring, with Malack (who we see in flashbacks). This idea he didn't go adventuring is absurd. We also see flashbacks of some of their adventures (or hear about them). Just a bizarre conclusion to draw.
Yea, a couple years spent adventuring is not "a good chunk of his un-life":smallsigh: Any more adventuring time you think he did you just made up.

[137beth]

Oh, and the time spent adventuring doesn't actually matter: Time spent or not spent adventuring places literally no restrictions on the amount of levels gained.

[Kish]

We don't know how long Durkon will remain a vampire.

Nor, whatever the Class and Level Geekery thread says, do we know what level Rich would say Durkon is if he had a reason to estimate Durkon's level right now--which is what level Durkon is.

[Ill Made Knight]

1) The fact you admit he spent years adventuring (putting aside how many years for a moment) means we already know he's been at this longer than most of the Order. So we can scrap this "he didn't have the experience as an adventurer that the order had" stuff right off the bat. Let's not shift the goal posts here, the post I was originally replying to from you said:

Malack hasn't gone adventuring. Durkon has, and will in the rest of the series.
Clearly that remark by you was false.
2) He is described by Tarquin has having helped fight wars with Tarquin for decades, conquering other nations and so on. Again, this seems substantially more likely to have given him chances for experience than most of what the order did with their time.

The bottom line is that this should seriously hamper Durkon's level advancement.

[jidasfire]

Levels of the casters aside, I don't think the Gates are ever getting fixed. The comic itself seems to imply, if subtly, that the Gates are a flawed, broken system, created under imperfect circumstances, protected in failed ways, and acting on incomplete if not outright incorrect information. Not to mention, given that Redcloak and Xykon's plan revolves directly around corrupting and abusing them, their existence in fact endangers the world. If the Order were to remake the Gates, all they would be doing is perpetuating the cycle and passing the buck to some other group of adventurers when the next gang of villains comes along. Whether they kill the Snarl, make peace with it, or find a way to close the rifts themselves, the Order has to do someting else and break the cycle.

[Kish]

The bottom line is that this should seriously hamper Durkon's level advancement.
Set aside Durkon's level for the moment.

You appear absolutely certain--to the point of not even asserting it, just making other assertions that hinge on it--that Durkon will rejoin the Order of the Stick and remain a vampire for the rest of the comic.

Why?

[137beth]

1) The fact you admit he spent years adventuring (putting aside how many years for a moment) means we already know he's been at this longer than most of the Order.
No we don't, both Durkon and Roy adventured before creating the order. Unless you can pin down the number of years Malack spent adventuring, you are out of luck.

[Ill Made Knight]

No we don't, both Durkon and Roy adventured before creating the order. Unless you can pin down the number of years Malack spent adventuring, you are out of luck.

Moving the goalposts. Your initial claim, quoted above, was that Malack had not adventured at all. Yet you now concede he's adventured at least as much if not more than all but 2 members of the order (who let us remember, were level 9 when this comic began, so how much meaningful adventuring they did before this, and whether it even matters, is pretty irrelevant). In any event, Malack having spent decades fighting wars and building empires seems a heck of a lot more likely to have given him chances to gain XP than Roy and Durkon got spending a few years fighting kobolds (assuming it was even that long), never mind that Malack also spent years as an adventurer (by your own admission).

[137beth]

Moving the goalposts. Your initial claim, quoted above, was that Malack had not adventured at all.
...in the past few decades....which is not the same as his entire un-life

Yet you now concede he's adventured at least as much if not more than all but 2 members of the order
No, I never said anything about that...please point out where I "conceded",

and, it still doesn't matter, since time spent adventuring has no correlation with xp gained, so, yea....

[Ill Made Knight]

...in the past few decades....which is not the same as his entire un-life

No, I never said anything about that...please point out where I "conceded",

and, it still doesn't matter, since time spent adventuring has no correlation with xp gained, so, yea....

You did not specify "the past few decades", and frankly I don't see the relevance of the last few decades to the discussion. I especially don't see it as he spent the past few decades helping fight wars, which surely would have offered plenty of chances for XP anyhow. The point is Malack levelled up more slowly because of his years of adventuring, and we should expect the same of Durkon... hence the thread.

[137beth]

he spent the past few decades helping fight wars, which surely would have offered plenty of chances for XP anyhow.
Why? Why would he get xp for helping fight wars?

because of his years of adventuring
And again, where the heck are you getting "years" of adventuring?!? Tarquin purports that Malack was part of his adventuring party...he doesn't say anything about how long they were adventuring. For all you know, Malack spent a grand total of 2 days adventuring. You seem to believe that Malack had to have spent more time adventuring than the Order...do you have any evidence for this whatsoever or is it something you just made up?

[Ill Made Knight]

Why? Why would he get xp for helping fight wars?

And again, where the heck are you getting "years" of adventuring?!? Tarquin purports that Malack was part of his adventuring party...he doesn't say anything about how long they were adventuring. For all you know, Malack spent a grand total of 2 days adventuring. You seem to believe that Malack had to have spent more time adventuring than the Order...do you have any evidence for this whatsoever or is it something you just made up?

Even a cursory glance at the flashback story makes it clear Malack has been in plenty of fights. Fights that are as likely to gain XP as what Roy and Durkon were doing prior to the OOTS. Tarquin and his friends adventured long enough to become quite high level characters, get a large amount of assets and items, etc, as well as a lot of experience and savvy. Even you referred to him as having been an adventurer several years! It seems you are just disagreeing for the sake of it, rather than putting forward any sort of consistent argument. First you asserted that Malack had not been an adventurer, then it was that he had done it for no more than a few years, and now we're back to "maybe he did it for 2 days". Impossible to take you seriously.

The whole point of this thread (which you contested) was that Durkon will level up slower now that he is a vampire... which he will.

[137beth]

Even a cursory glance at the flashback story makes it clear Malack has been in plenty of fights.
Where? I see a couple fights, but not even enough to gain a single level.

Fights that are as likely to gain XP as what Roy and Durkon were doing prior to the OOTS.
Do you have evidence to back this up, or are you just pulling stuff out of your behind again?

Even you referred to him as having been an adventurer several years!
Uh, no I didn't:smallsigh: I said that your assertion he adventured for "more than a few years" was bogus. Nowhere did I say that he adventured for a year or more.

But we can do some math. Ya'know, facts, not BS assertions. Let's calculate the minimum possible time Malack could have been adventuring. So, let's assume for simplicities sake that the comic is following the xp rules in the DMG, page 38. So that would indicate that he wouldn't ever fight encounters with an EL 10 or more levels higher than himself (reasonable, as that would be very hard.) So the minimum number of encounters for Malack to level up quickly would be if he only fought encounters of his level +9...
Now, he has to divide the xp between 6 people, but they might not all have been there all the time. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt, and say Malack "only" had to split xp four ways. This would give him more than enough xp to level every encounter, and the DMG says that you can't gain more than one level at once. So at a minimum, he had 11 encounters. An encounter takes a minimum of one 6-second round. So I have just proven that Malack adventured for AT LEAST 66 seconds. Your estimate of "several years" is certainly more than 66 seconds, but you still need to prove it. We KNOW (because I just proved it) that the amount of time Malack spent adventuring is somewhere between 1 minute, 6 seconds and his entire life (over 200 years). So no, there's no proof that he spent any more than a day adventuring.

then it was that he had done it for no more than a few years, and now we're back to "maybe he did it for 2 days".
Wow, are you seriously saying you believe 2 days to not be "no more than a few years"? I'm pretty sure 2 days is less than a few years.

The whole point of this thread (which you contested) was that Durkon will level up slower now that he is a vampire... which he will.
The whole point of this thread appears to be you wanting to make a bunch of assertions and not giving any evidence for them whatsoever.
A partial list of your entirely unsupported assertions:
--that Malack was an adventurer for several years
--that Durkon must remain a vampire
--that Durkon will re-join the order
--that Malack's trouble finding appropriate challenges automatically translates to Durkon having trouble gaining xp, even when he could be fighting epic characters
--that the gates could never be repaired without Durkon reaching level 21, and that no possible ritual other than what Dorukan did could ever replicate anything sorta like the gates. If you want an idea of how absurd your assertion is, consider for a moment that creating an entire (small) universe is only a 9th level spell, cast-able by a 17th level wizard.

If you actually want to provide evidence for anything you claim, I'm eager to hear it. But if all you want to do is spout baseless assertions and then complain that people want to hear some sort of evidence before automatically believing you, then...sorry, no one can take that seriously.

[Ill Made Knight]

Uh, no I didn't I said that your assertion he adventured for "more than a few years" was bogus. Nowhere did I say that he adventured for a year or more.



Yea, a couple years spent adventuring is not "a good chunk of his un-life":smallsigh: Any more adventuring time you think he did you just made up.

A sensible reading of the above makes it clear you said exactly that. I don't normally do this, because I enjoy a good argument, but you've been so inconsistent on this, I'm just going to ignore you. You can't even keep what you're arguing straight for 3 consecutive posts.

[137beth]

Wow....just...wow....

A couple of years is not a "good portion of Malack's un-life". Nowhere in that sentence is any suggestion whatsoever of time Malack may or may not have spent adventuring. When you said that two posts ago, I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt: I assumed you were just mis-remembering what you read earlier in the day and weren't bothering to recheck what I wrote. But now...you actually read it and still saw something that isn't there, and isn't anything like what I wrote...wow...

[Ill Made Knight]

Uh, no I didn't I said that your assertion he adventured for "more than a few years" was bogus. Nowhere did I say that he adventured for a year or more.



Yea, a couple years spent adventuring is not "a good chunk of his un-life":smallsigh: Any more adventuring time you think he did you just made up.

You shouldn't be having difficulty reading this part.

[137beth]

You shouldn't be having difficulty reading this part.

Yea, your assertion that he adventured for more than a couple years is something you made up. Your assertion that he adventured for more than a day is something he made up. Neither of those two statements in any way imply that he adventured for a year or more. You appear to be looking at a less-than-or-equal sign and reading it as a greater-than-or-equal sign.

[TBFProgrammer]

A couple of years is not a "good portion of Malack's un-life". Nowhere in that sentence is any suggestion whatsoever of time Malack may or may not have spent adventuring.

Actually, his interpretation is a valid possible reading of your statement. It is not what you intended to say, but the language is not precise enough to state that he had absolutely no basis for his claim of you supporting "Malack has been adventuring for a few years." His basis is simply a misinterpretation.


That said:

@Ill Made Knight: He never specifically acknowledges the claim that Malack adventured for a few years. The post merely states that even if that claim were to be proven, the claim of Malack adventuring for "a good chunk of his un-life" does not follow from that.



Now, closer to the topic itself: Tarquin acquired a kingdom and held it for a year. During this time, the adventuring band was not together, or he would not have needed to reassemble them after his defeat (7th panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html)). He formed sufficient connections with this group to turn to them over everyone he'd met and worked with while being a ruler, even after being separated for a year. There must be some serious history there.

There is also the matter of them adventuring for a while to prepare to put their plan into action (second to last panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html)).


There is sufficient evidence to heavily suggest, though certainly not enough to prove, that Malack was adventuring for a few years.