Any Fencers In the Playground?

[John Cribati]

The sword kind, not barrier between lawns kind.

I have been searching the internets for the past half hour and come up blank.

What do the official rules for fencing say about acrobatics? That is, flipping and the like.

I know it's probably not allowed, but I have yet to see a blatant rule against flipping.

Anyone willing to enlighten me?

[valadil]

I fenced a little in college. Never kept up with it though and I couldn't quote a single rule, even when I was fencing on a weekly basis.

I can't imagine that working to your advantage. What's the benefit in flipping?

At a more competitive level, aren't fencing jackets wired so they can detect hits with perfect accuracy? I'm pretty sure flipping around would get you all tied up, unless they're wireless.

[Xuc Xac]

Without consulting the rule book, I would guess there's no rule against acrobatic flipping for the same reason football codes don't prohibit passing the ball to your opponent and giving them an open path to your goal. It's just a bad idea that comes with its own punishment.

[Aedilred]

I only use sabre, and am by no means an expert in that, but depending on how you arranged the acrobatics you could fall foul of the foot placement laws (the same that outlaw the fleche). I don't think that would be an issue in foil or epee, although there might be other restrictions I'm not aware of.

As the two guys above have said, I suspect that it's not illegal so much as just a terrible idea. It doesn't really gain you any appreciable advantage, there's a good chance of something going wrong (especially with electric equipment and associated wires) and against a competent opponent it leaves you very exposed.

Apart from anything else, wouldn't it be rather difficult to do with a blade in your hand?

It's the sort of thing that might be impressive in display fights, , but I can't see its being of any benefit in fencing proper, or in any code of combat sport where weapons with any reasonable reach are in use, assuming your opponent isn't totally rubbish.

(Admittedly, you could say the flunge is a little on the acrobatic side, but that's a relatively straightforward manoeuvre by comparison).

[Jay R]

The last time I fenced under modern rules (in the 1970s), if you spun around, the bout would be stopped so your wire could be fixed, since it would now be wrapped around you.

I can't recall a rule against flipping, nor can I imagine any purpose to doing so.

But modern fencing is done on a narrow strip.

In SCA fencing, done in the round, flipping is OK, as long as you never endanger your opponent. I suspect that flipping forward would be illegal, but I've fallen backwards, done a back somersault, and come up fighting. That was completely legal.

[Silverbit]

I fenced a few years back; I can't recall any rules about flipping, but as everyone else has said it's a very bad idea. Not only does it leave you somewhat open to a lunge, it can tangle the wire around you if you're using a modern vest.

(However, it would look awesome.)

[SaintRidley]

I fence sabre, and occasionally epee. In neither case can a flip be helpful at all. Nor can it be in foil. It's also more likely to just result in injury to someone, what with your opponent probably reaching out to stab you, the strange momentum probably snapping their blade, and then you winding up with a sharp broken blade stuck in you. Not to mention, there are rules on the subject, though they don't specify flipping they would be brought to bear upon a flip.

Putting your back to your opponent is a yellow card according to t21.2 of the FIE rules, as outlined here (http://www.britishfencing.com/uploads/files/t.120_2012-feb-05.pdf) in the table of offenses and penalties. Flipping could be construed as turning your back upon your opponent.

Likewise, even if not construed as turning one's back on the opponent, it is an irregular movement, which also results in a yellow card as outlined in the same table, referring to t.87.2 here (http://britishfencing.com/uploads/files/book_t_march_2013.1.pdf)


. All bouts must preserve the character of a courteous and frank encounter. All irregular actions (flèche attack which finishes with a collision jostling the opponent, disorderly fencing, irregular movements on the piste, hits achieved with violence, hits made during or after a fall) are strictly forbidden (cf. t.114–t.120). Should such an offence occur, any hit scored by the fencer at fault is annulled.


So, no. No flipping.

[Sylthia]

There are also the boundries that you would be leaving by flipping.

[Meeki]

From the USFA rules I fenced with when I was younger you cannot perform any action where your back foot would pass your right unless performing a fleche.

Nor can your back shoulder pass your front at anytime, although while passing your opponent this may happen but I'm not sure if judges just ignore it or if it's actually against the rules.

[Erloas]

Not that I have much to add to the specific question, but the thread does demonstrate one of the reasons why I was never all that interested in fencing even though I love SCA combat. Such strict rules doesn't make any sense for fighting.

At least in SCA combat you could flip if you were capable of it, though the majority of your opponents would demonstrate why it is a bad idea. Although I have seen, on very rare occasion, someone spinning around to throw a shot. That still will likely get you killed, but if you are a good fighter and your opponent is not expecting it at all it can work.

[Aedilred]

Not that I have much to add to the specific question, but the thread does demonstrate one of the reasons why I was never all that interested in fencing even though I love SCA combat. Such strict rules doesn't make any sense for fighting.

Well, fencing is half training exercise and half sport, and it's been the latter first and foremost for centuries. The front foot rules were introduced to stop people charging at each other at full tilt, which wasn't very good for anything. That said, the effect of the rule is a positive one. The angle that it requires you to keep your body at minimises the target area and gives you the best chance of defending it with your blade. The restricted movement also helps greatly with developing positional awareness.

[Moriwen]

Fencer! *waves*

Yes, flipping would never be to your advantage that I can imagine, even if you could pull it off. Keep in mind that in modern fencing you're hooked up electrically, which means lots of cords coming out of your jacket and fastened to a bungee cord which reaches to the end of the strip.

Exposing the back of your head is a yellow card and an immediate halt, so that would end your flip right there (and any touch you scored would be invalidated). Touching the strip with anything other than your feet and back hand (that's left hand if you're right handed, or vice versa) is also a yellow card, so unless you can flip from a standing position you're in trouble in that regard. Falling to avoid a touch, again, yellow card; it's not totally clear that a flip would be that, but if you've just done a flip the ref isn't likely to be too friendly. And finally, there's always "abnormal fencing," which is ref-talk for "you just did something which is clearly not allowed but there isn't actually anything in the rules against it," also a yellow card.

That's in foil, anyway; I believe the rules are similar for the other weapons, but I'm only certified as a foil referee.

[KuReshtin]

And finally, there's always "abnormal fencing," which is ref-talk for "you just did something which is clearly not allowed but there isn't actually anything in the rules against it," also a yellow card.


I like those kinds of rules being included. We have the same kind of rule in American Football. 'Unfair acts'. Anything that the referee can think of that's not included anywhere else i the rules but is clearly breaching the spirit of the game:


d. An obviously unfair act not specifically covered by the rules occurs during the game.

PENALTY -
The referee may take any action he considers equitable, which includes directing that the down be repeated, assessing a 15-yard penalty, awarding a score, or suspending or forfeiting the game.

Keeps teams on their toes a bit.

[Alleine]

I fenced for a few years. It was good times until every semester we somehow managed to attract at least one jerk who tended to ruin things in various ways.

While there's probably no rule against flipping, my instructor taught us that anyone who turned their back to their opponent was doing an illegal move. Not sure if it's ACTUALLY illegal, but it's pretty damned dangerous when all the protective bits are in the front. I imagine doing any kind of flip would expose your back to your opponent which could be extremely bad for you. Getting hit with an epee anywhere on the back of your head would be far more unpleasant than getting stabbed in the front of the mask.

Come to think of it, we never actually read any formal rules, but it was just a college class and the instructor did a good job making sure no one got more hurt than would be expected.

[AttilaTheGeek]

I fenced epee for several years, and I can't think of why that would ever be a good idea. If they're far enough away that they couldn't hit you with a lunge while you're in the air, then they're far enough away that there's no reason to flip.

In other words, it may be legal, but I can't see why you'd ever want to do it.

In real combat, again, there's no reason to. If you're close enough that you'd gain anything from flipping (as opposed to not moving), you're close enough that you could wind up with a huge scar down your back. That is, unless your opponent is really slow, but if that's the case you could just parry them forever.

[Jay R]

I fenced epee for several years, and I can't think of why that would ever be a good idea. If they're far enough away that they couldn't hit you with a lunge while you're in the air, then they're far enough away that there's no reason to flip.

In other words, it may be legal, but I can't see why you'd ever want to do it.

In real combat, again, there's no reason to. If you're close enough that you'd gain anything from flipping (as opposed to not moving), you're close enough that you could wind up with a huge scar down your back. That is, unless your opponent is really slow, but if that's the case you could just parry them forever.

In real combat, very rarely, a back somersault might be the fastest way to avoid a head shot. A spin can be made to work if you have the opponent's blade in a bind, and it's a slow enough blade (longsword, not foil or epee) that he can't escape faster than you can spin.

I've made it work in the SCA, but only as an extremely rare stunt, which my opponent doesn't expect. If I've pulled it off in the last year or two, then my opponent might expect it, and would be ready to avoid it.

[I haven't done it in this century; it might be time to pull it out again.]