The Case of the 20th level Peasant

[CRtwenty]

We know that it's possible to advance NPC classes as far as you want. We also know that in a lot of prewritten adventures you have NPCs with NPC classes at strangely high levels despite that making no sense.

So here's a thought exercise. What kind of circumstances would result in a person advancing all the way from level 1 to level 20 as a Peasant?

[Galvin]

I don't think there is ANY case where any one NPC could advance to 20th level in a class as lowly as Peasant. There is simply no way to gain XP. Experts level is measured by how much skill they have, and Aristocrats could gain Roleplaying XP. Though you can't really gain XP from farming, now can you? They would have to kill stuff, and the extensive amount of stuff that you would have to kill to get to 20 would be impossible for a commoner. If they could, then they would probably be better suited for the Warrior class.

[Dark.Revenant]

Immortality and a lot of patience for killing game. CR 1/6 - 1/3 eventually adds up.

A good example of some nobody gaining a bunch of levels would be Simo Häyhä; assuming he starts with 2 levels in commoner and 1 level in warrior when he starts sniping, he's about par for the average soldier (level 3 NPC). 100 days and 700 kills later, and he's bagged a lot of XP. Let's assume it's 200 poorly-trained greenhorns (CR 1), 300 regulars (CR 2), 150 veterans (CR 3), 40 competent guys (CR 5), and 10 guys classifiable as elite (CR 8). Our boy Simo has leveled up to 14 by the end of the war, complete with enough hitpoints to survive a crit to the head.

[Flickerdart]

Immortality and a lot of patience for killing game. CR 1/6 - 1/3 eventually adds up.
No they don't. Trivial encounters that are too far below you don't give XP. By level 8, even if the guy faces down an entire forest's worth of CR 1/3 creatures in a single encounter, he will get no XP.

[Yogibear41]

Immortality+a cellar full of rats that just seem to keep coming back.


But in all honesty, no commoner should ever level up past level 2. IMO people living up out in the sticks that one would consider "commoners" generally have levels in warrior instead because on occassion they actually have to fight things off to survive. Commoners on the other hand are people who more or less live inside city walls all their lives and work as things like cooks, maids, or beggars.

You might argue that a cook would be an expert instead, and I would say well that depends, the cook of a king or noble sure but the guy down at the local tavern, or the school lunch lady? nah commoners.



No they don't. Trivial encounters that are too far below you don't give XP. By level 8, even if the guy faces down an entire forest's worth of CR 1/3 creatures in a single encounter, he will get no XP.

He gets xp for searching their bodies and sharpening his weapons back up after killing them, not for actually killing them lol

[avr]

There's a 17th level commoner in Sharn: City of Towers who is a local political leader as well as a skilled cook.

In general though I wouldn't recommend using an NPC class for anyone past level 3 at the most.

[zlefin]

that largely depends on what xp system you use. Some DMs give small amounts of xp to represent learning and life experience; others don't.
If you were to say, get 1 xp a week just for farming and the travails of living life; that'd add up over time. You could hit level 3 by the end of a lifetime quite feasibly as a human. As a much longer lived race you could get far higher.

Going strictly by raw - some of the nastier environmental hazards have CRs attached to them. lesser storms don't; but duststorms have 3, tornadoes have 10; I'm sure frostburn has some others. As a peasant it'd be quite plausible to encounter many natural disasters over your lifetime. If you live in, or move to (probably not by choice), an especially disaster-prone area you could pick up some nice levels on those environmental challenges.
For peasants, who would avoid fights with anything dangerous, dealing with natural disasters may be their primary source of xp; and people having to deal with disasters in real life is quite common.

[Slayer Lord]

Well, if expert levels are determined by their skill, then a common's level should be determined by age, or by what they've survived. At least, I'd give experience points for surviving a severe drought if you can't loot and pillage your way to fame and fortune.

Though really, it's pretty ridiculous how DnD makes commoners utterly incapable of combat. In real life, the purpose of a shepherd is to drive away or kill any wild animals that try to steal their sheep (up to and including bears and lions), but someone in DnD whose sole job is to herd sheep can be killed in one round by a house cat. I've always rather liked how in Dark Sun literally everyone can defend themselves in some fashion.

[137beth]

No they don't. Trivial encounters that are too far below you don't give XP. By level 8, even if the guy faces down an entire forest's worth of CR 1/3 creatures in a single encounter, he will get no XP.

The OP never specified which version of d20 he was using: in PF a CR 1/4 monster always gives 100 xp, regardless of your level.

[Elricaltovilla]

Commoners gain xp by buying oil magic items from adventurers on the cheap and turning around and selling them for a 100% markup.

[Dark.Revenant]

No they don't. Trivial encounters that are too far below you don't give XP. By level 8, even if the guy faces down an entire forest's worth of CR 1/3 creatures in a single encounter, he will get no XP.

Depends on the XP system. In Pathfinder, for instance, each increase of 2 CR doubles the XP gained, and the XP leveling table follows an exponential curve. You can kill a million slimes to reach max level, but the task takes more months than you have years.

Realistically, people with only 1 level are bums, beggars, and children. Educated teenagers (16+), especially with martial arts training, will be at least level 2. Exceptions are PC classes, which would require an unusual upbringing to be a Rogue or Wizard before you reach level 2. Educated, trained adults would generally be level 3 (as would military mooks). From there, the divergence depends on campaign power level.

[Telonius]

I would assume they would mostly be innkeepers. They earn their XP by housing adventurers. Every night the Inn does not burn to the ground is a successful encounter.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

i have thought about this before.

Some commoners start a fight club, they fight each other each week in solo fights. They only have to win 3-4 fights against an equal opponent to go up a level, that's about 60 - 80 winning fights to get to level 20, this could be done within a year.

[Erik Vale]

I would assume they would mostly be innkeepers. They earn their XP by housing adventurers. Every night the Inn does not burn to the ground is a successful encounter.

Except all the innkeepers are retired high level adventurers remember?

Perhaps the tavern wenches who manage to get laid and steal some adventurers coin would count as commoners and get XP nightly, but less so inn keepers.

[Angelmaker]

If beggars are level 1, Did they come to the world fully grown? Because they probably were young too, once. Which means there is probably a mechanism for NPC classes to loose levels. Either that or according to D&D logic there HAVE to be level 20 beggar NPC's.

It has been argued that experts like cooks gain xp by their skills, via crafting or professions. So what profession would net you faster XP than profession(beggar)? Also roleplaying a beggard would not bemmuch different from roleplaying a noble. Roleplay is roleplay, there is no difference in what you play, so why would the beggar be netted less XP?

The XP system can't really applied here, but IF we want to have it strictly to XP system than ANY profession, be it beggar, cook, landlord, noble or warrior, is able to sooner or later level up to 20 and there probably should be epic level NPC 's too, as long as they don't anger their local wizard.

Edit: I suppose somebody take this question to attila the geek's math desk:

If two first level warriors in the local city guard were to have an encounter daily against each other with nonlethal weapons, assuming 5 days a week and also assuming for the ease of calculation that both level at the same time: how many days would it take them to reach level 20 and on which days do they level?

I have the guts feeling if you really apply this XP chart to local guards, you will find that there should actually be MANY more level 20 NPC guardsmen than there are...

Doubleedit: swordsaged by crazyhedge. Actually, this will be my next adventure plot! Level 1 commoners have foudned a fight club and they are angry at the city for reason of X! Stop them, before they level to 20 and the bums take over the city! Bumfight on an epic level...

[Nettlekid]

I present to you the story of Joe. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558998/Commoner_Campaign)

[crazyhedgewizrd]

If two first level warriors in the local city guard were to have an encounter daily against each other with nonlethal weapons, assuming 5 days a week and also assuming for the ease of calculation that both level at the same time: how many days would it take them to reach level 20 and on which days do they level?

I'm going to do some rough maths
3.3 fights to level, 20 levels, 2 fighters = 3.3*20*2 = 126.6 fights
5 fights in one week
126.6 / 5 = 25.3 weeks

it would take them roughly 1/2 a year to level to 20

[Thurbane]

i have thought about this before.

Some commoners start a fight club, they fight each other each week in solo fights. They only have to win 3-4 fights against an equal opponent to go up a level, that's about 60 - 80 winning fights to get to level 20, this could be done within a year.
I love the idea of Commoner Fight Club!

[CRtwenty]

I love the idea of Commoner Fight Club!

The first rule of the Commoner Fight Club?
Don't talk about the Commoner Fight Club to people with PC levels. :smallwink:

[Malroth]

mage with summon elemental reserve feat calls forth small air elementals to be disposable sparring partners for the guards.

[Jon_Dahl]

Commoner Fight Club is pure gold! Thank you!

[hicegetraenk]

I know a lot of players who'd just wish a peasant to 20th level, if the DM allowed it. Just for the sake of it.

[Gildedragon]

in my campaign settings I usually have a lvl 40 commoner. She is the grand matron, head of families un-numbered. She has eyes and ears in every inch of the city and far into the countryside. She doesn't toil anymore; but once she did, once she moved across the world, far and wide she has traveled, to settle where she did and raise her clan. whoever you are you have some debt to her; be it that she was you great great grandfather's wet nurse, or she saw to your grandmother's birth... or patched up your elven father's scraped knee when he was six.
She is frail and fearsome and ancient as time, and her pockets are full of candy for nice children, and rumors for savy adventurers... and if the adventurers are good, she will give them both.
She cannot die; the gods will not let her. Were she ever to arrive to an outer plane, the clout of ages of toil and backbreaking labor for her children and her children's children's children would have myriad petitioners bow to her rather than the gods; her funeral would be a locus of worship of inconceivable power; solars and balors born from the souls of her dead would be beholden to her. She would be an overdeity in an instant, great and terrible, reconciling all disparate alignments. Thus she may not be allowed to die

[VariSami]

How about a legendary Hobo that has been cursed with immortality in times immemorial? Using the alternative experience system from Unearthed Arcana, every encounter gives him some amount of experience. He never really changes his ways to become a warrior, an expert or anything - he just keeps doing the same things over and over again, slowly attaining experience from brawls with guards and other drunkards. Due to his immortality, the mortal lifespan is not stopping him from dripping his way to the double digits, eventually reaching even 20th level.

In all actuality, he might not even be that legendary: after all, he is just a normal, very experienced hobo that is impossible to kill. He might be *any* hobo you happen to encounter but this one happens to have a story.

[ahenobarbi]

High-int butcher. Didn't level because he wanted to retrain first level of commoner as Wizard and craft whole bunch of scrolls to become rich (rules allow to defer leveling because you want to craft). Because he didn't level he kept getting XP for animals. However he got no opportunity to retrain and finally gave up and leveled to commoner 20.

EDIT: No need for immortality here. Bison or Boar is CR 2, gets 600 XP for that, so he needs to kill just 317 of them. If he kills one every day (because preparing meat takes the rest of it) he'll be done in under a year.

[DementedFellow]

Mabinogi has a system in place for working for NPCs. If you help out the healers in town, they give you money, experience and holy water. Might not seem like much, but the more you do, the more you are rewarded.

[TuggyNE]

I can't believe it took me this long to notice who posted this. :smallamused:


High-int butcher. Didn't level because he wanted to retrain first level of commoner as Wizard and craft whole bunch of scrolls to become rich (rules allow to defer leveling because you want to craft). Because he didn't level he kept getting XP for animals. However he got no opportunity to retrain and finally gave up and leveled to commoner 20.

Hmm, isn't there a provision somewhere that if you have 1 less than the XP needed to reach the level after your current one, that you can't gain any more until you actually level?

[DigoDragon]

I had this one farm that was out in the middle of nowhere, and the farmers living there often had to deal with predatory animals trying to eat their livestock. None of them were 20th level, but they did have around 5-8 levels apiece after a few years of fighting those beasts.

I suppose a small community that lives near dangerous encounters like that could reach pretty high levels by retirement age.

[Darcand]

I think this depends on what you consider an encounter.

If a typical adventure is made up of 4 level appropriate encounters then it doesn't take all that long to level up as a commoner at all.

Most of us qualify as commoners, so let's look at our day. Wake up, make breakfast, head out. Managed to avoid a reckless driver on the way to work? Encounter. Successfully convinced the boss that your report was late because someone in accounting hasn't filed their report yet? Encounter. Remembered everything on the shopping list and made it home in time for soccer practice? Encounter. Cooked dinner and assisted with homework? Encounter. Congratulations, you just completed an adventure.

When you first start doing these things they can be hard, but by the end of your first year of living on your own you can do them with a cold and the gas tank on empty for two days straight. That is leveling up.

[drack]

We know that it's possible to advance NPC classes as far as you want. We also know that in a lot of prewritten adventures you have NPCs with NPC classes at strangely high levels despite that making no sense.

So here's a thought exercise. What kind of circumstances would result in a person advancing all the way from level 1 to level 20 as a Peasant?

Wizards gain xp studying in tower, commoners gain xp tilling the fields, experts gain xp crafting fine jewlery, ect. There's also the classic idea that xp can be gained through riddles and combat.
"I'm level 20 because I solved a crossword each day for 20 years!"
"When the village gets together to fight at festivles I always win."
"All I do is beat up them good for nothing bandits that try to tear up my land!"
"If I had 1xp for every time I had to give that son o'
min a good spankin' to beat some sense into him I'd probably be epic by now"

[Segev]

While there are doubtless PC classes that can do it better, the lack of other options coupled with their not-too-awful skill list makes commoners actually pretty interesting as beast-masters.

Not in the druid sense, leading wild packs of wolves to rip and tear by tooth and claw. No, in the "David" sense. Trained with a sling, maybe armed with a longspear if he knows he's going into a fight and wearing leather or padded armor, the commoner has Handle Animal maxed out, and his feat is spent on Skill Focus in it. He has a small herd of goats, and he's actually trained them, and his herding dogs, for combat. They work together, flanking foes and stomping them to death or aiding another to give him a boost with that spear. They provide him cover if he has to be at range, and he's got a sling.

As he levels up, he uses his animals to subdue bigger ones and train them. But always in orderly herds.

Again, others can do it better, but they likely are focusing on other tricks that are stronger still. The commoner reaches level 20 because he's a farm lad who just wouldn't quit tending his flock.

[drack]

Well light or padded armor gives a -2 or -1 to hit for the peasant. Still, with one simple weapon proficiency, and a skill list able to do anything one may need to in a war, I tend to prefer them over warriors to ill that roll. Now warriors make better heavy troopers, but lets admit it, warriors are god-awful at digging under a castle wall, crewing a ship, and best yet, commoners actually have spot/listen as class skills, so they don't fail so badly as sentries. :smalltongue: Also recall that lords commonly recruit commoners for battle who feign death after one hit. It wouldn't be uncommon for a commoner to have seen as many battles as an adventurer. :smallwink:

[Starmage21]

The Commoner doesnt have to fight to level. There are many situations which SHOULD be rated with a CR equivalent and be worth XP, but arent. As suggested in the DMG, if you defeat a trap with a certain CR, you get accordant XP for that encounter too. Farmer Joe the 20th level commoner has dealt with difficult farm and family situations with a high enough CR. He might have even protected his farm from some marauding goblins, but he's still just a farmer and doesnt want to be anything else.

[CRtwenty]

Now I kind of want to see an Epic Commoner with Epic feats...

"Gee Pa how did you cut down that tree in one swing?"
"Well Junior one day all my tools started acting like they were made of Adamantite"
"Is that why Bessie is so cross when you milk her?"
"I reckon so Junior, I reckon so"

[Telonius]

Now I kind of want to see an Epic Commoner with Epic feats...

"Gee Pa how did you cut down that tree in one swing?"
"Well Junior one day all my tools started acting like they were made of Adamantite"
"Is that why Bessie is so cross when you milk her?"
"I reckon so Junior, I reckon so"

Just started a list over in Homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15721901#post15721901).

[SowZ]

Depends on the XP system. In Pathfinder, for instance, each increase of 2 CR doubles the XP gained, and the XP leveling table follows an exponential curve. You can kill a million slimes to reach max level, but the task takes more months than you have years.

Realistically, people with only 1 level are bums, beggars, and children. Educated teenagers (16+), especially with martial arts training, will be at least level 2. Exceptions are PC classes, which would require an unusual upbringing to be a Rogue or Wizard before you reach level 2. Educated, trained adults would generally be level 3 (as would military mooks). From there, the divergence depends on campaign power level.

That's all homebrewed, though. By the rules of the game, the average levels are lower than that.

[Zanfire]

I think this depends on what you consider an encounter.

If a typical adventure is made up of 4 level appropriate encounters then it doesn't take all that long to level up as a commoner at all.

Most of us qualify as commoners, so let's look at our day. Wake up, make breakfast, head out. Managed to avoid a reckless driver on the way to work? Encounter. Successfully convinced the boss that your report was late because someone in accounting hasn't filed their report yet? Encounter. Remembered everything on the shopping list and made it home in time for soccer practice? Encounter. Cooked dinner and assisted with homework? Encounter. Congratulations, you just completed an adventure.

When you first start doing these things they can be hard, but by the end of your first year of living on your own you can do them with a cold and the gas tank on empty for two days straight. That is leveling up.


Not to be too rude, but somewhere, someplace, this just gave a very sad, depressed nerd the will to live again.

[intothenight]

If we're talking traditional farmer-type peasants, experience could come from dealing with weeds that fight back and defending livestock from predators both animal and humanoid. At level 20, famine and disease dare not blight their farms.

If we're just talking dirt-crushingly poor peasants without the luxury of land to take care of, the XP would probably lie in finding ways to stay fed, clothed, and sheltered without catching attention from the wrong sort of people. At level 20, they've always got a way to turn hopelessness into a chance to earn some coin and a place to sleep for themselves and their companions, without managing to upset the town watch or the underworld in the process.

Or the peasant once met a starving wizard and gave him a piece of bread. In exchange, the peasant gets 10% of the wizard's XP from then on. Not sure how they'd make an agreement like that in-game, though.

[ahenobarbi]

Hmm, isn't there a provision somewhere that if you have 1 less than the XP needed to reach the level after your current one, that you can't gain any more until you actually level?

Ouch. I checked rules and they don't allow doing what I wanted in Item Creation Feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#xPCost) (problematic word bolded by me).


... upon gaining enough XP to attain a new level, he or she can immediately expend XP on creating an item rather than keeping the XP to advance a level.

however the commoner could save up XP thanks to [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#xPCostXP"spells with XP component[/url]:


...you may, on gaining enough XP to attain a new level, use those XP for casting a spell rather than keeping them and advancing a level.

I couldn't find rule saying that you must advance anyways when having 1 XP less than required for next level, but it sounds somewhat familiar.


Now I kind of want to see an Epic Commoner with Epic feats...

"Gee Pa how did you cut down that tree in one swing?"
"Well Junior one day all my tools started acting like they were made of Adamantite"
"Is that why Bessie is so cross when you milk her?"
"I reckon so Junior, I reckon so"

:smallbiggrin:

[ShurikVch]

High-level (relatively) Commoner NPCs from Forgotten Realms:

Mother Tara
Chaotic good Lightfoot halfling Commoner 7
Mother Tara was a cheery halfling from the Vilhon Reach, who owned Mother Tara's Festhall in Shadowdale.
(Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land, p. 143)

Dela Alder
Neutral Human Commoner 10
Dela Alder is the proprietor of the Traveler's Cloak Inn within the city of Melvaunt.
(Mysteries of the Moonsea, p. 92)

Surrolph Hlakken
Chaotic good Illuskan Commoner 16/Vigilante 1
Surrolph Hlakken is a horsemaster as well as an information gatherer for the vigilante group known as the Red Sashes.
(City of Splendors: Waterdeep, p. 75)

[NightbringerGGZ]

I would assume they would mostly be innkeepers. They earn their XP by housing adventurers. Every night the Inn does not burn to the ground is a successful encounter.

So is the CR of the challenge determined by the character levels of the adventuring party? If so that could net some significant XP =)

[IW Judicator]

So is the CR of the challenge determined by the character levels of the adventuring party? If so that could net some significant XP =)

Well, there's also another consideration there. Sure, trying to make sure the newest batch of adventurers won't burn down your inn (again?) is a challenge...but what of the challenge of attracting those higher level adventurers (you know, the ones with more gold than some countries) to your inn specifically, instead of any of the other locations in town? That'd be worth a good chunk of exp right there.

And, though I'd usually be loathe to bring this up, there's the whores. Tell me someone couldn't work their way up to Epic level as one of those (and I imagine it'd be quite the sight to see). :cool:

[Thurbane]

A Commoner with cheesed out Handle Animal should be able to handle most encounters from atop his (War Beast, Magebred, Horrid) Battletitan Dinosaur :smalltongue:

[Doorhandle]

I don't think there is ANY case where any one NPC could advance to 20th level in a class as lowly as Peasant. There is simply no way to gain XP. Experts level is measured by how much skill they have, and Aristocrats could gain Roleplaying XP. Though you can't really gain XP from farming, now can you? They would have to kill stuff, and the extensive amount of stuff that you would have to kill to get to 20 would be impossible for a commoner. If they could, then they would probably be better suited for the Warrior class.

Well I dunno. Consider the amount of horrible, random creature living in the assumed to be living countryside, I imagend they would have to protect their flock from lions, manticores and worse in certain areas.

Perhaps not enough to get him to twenty, but it's a start.



While there are doubtless PC classes that can do it better, the lack of other options coupled with their not-too-awful skill list makes commoners actually pretty interesting as beast-masters.

Not in the druid sense, leading wild packs of wolves to rip and tear by tooth and claw. No, in the "David" sense. Trained with a sling, maybe armed with a longspear if he knows he's going into a fight and wearing leather or padded armor, the commoner has Handle Animal maxed out, and his feat is spent on Skill Focus in it. He has a small herd of goats, and he's actually trained them, and his herding dogs, for combat. They work together, flanking foes and stomping them to death or aiding another to give him a boost with that spear. They provide him cover if he has to be at range, and he's got a sling.

As he levels up, he uses his animals to subdue bigger ones and train them. But always in orderly herds.

Again, others can do it better, but they likely are focusing on other tricks that are stronger still. The commoner reaches level 20 because he's a farm lad who just wouldn't quit tending his flock.

That's just about how it's done!

[VariSami]

And, though I'd usually be loathe to bring this up, there's the whores. Tell me someone couldn't work their way up to Epic level as one of those (and I imagine it'd be quite the sight to see). :cool:
There (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspasia) are (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phryne) a few (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodopis_(hetaera)) real world examples.

[Devronq]

The first thing to pop into my mind... Rupert. Its a kids show look it up hes clearly no better than a commoner but all the adventures hes been on, mostly against monsters i could see him being level 20 eventually.

[Hytheter]

You know it'd be cool if there was some sort of delayed but potentially awesome benefit to taking lots of levels in commoner. Sort of like Donnel the villager in Fire Emblem Awakening, who starts off terrible but has a neat ability that makes him really good later.

[DementedFellow]

This thread makes me want to have a commoner only campaign.

Is there a list somewhere of adventure hooks that I could use for such a campaign?

[Hytheter]

This thread makes me want to have a commoner only campaign.

Is there a list somewhere of adventure hooks that I could use for such a campaign?

I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to think of something.

"A small band of aggressive orcs has been spotted lurking outside the village, and the helpful adventurers that left to investigate the matter have mysteriously disappeared! Can the lowly villagers succeed where famed heroes have seemingly failed?"

The added possibility of encountering Player-Classed NPCs in a campaign in which the Players play NPC classes is an amusing subversion of the norm.

Alternate plot hook: "Your town has been plagued by a flock of especially vicious chickens. Unfortunately, the local heroes have higher priorities, leaving it up to the common folk to deal with the angry birds."

[Talderas]

Wizards gain xp studying in tower, commoners gain xp tilling the fields, experts gain xp crafting fine jewlery, ect. There's also the classic idea that xp can be gained through riddles and combat.
"I'm level 20 because I solved a crossword each day for 20 years!"
"When the village gets together to fight at festivles I always win."
"All I do is beat up them good for nothing bandits that try to tear up my land!"
"If I had 1xp for every time I had to give that son o'
min a good spankin' to beat some sense into him I'd probably be epic by now"

I rule that a female commoner gains 1 level for each live-birth she gives and survives. So a mother of 12 children is a 13th level commoner at least. That would make Mrs. Feodor Vassilyev a Lv70 Commoner.

[drack]

lolz. :smallbiggrin:

[brutticusforce]

Immortality and a lot of patience for killing game. CR 1/6 - 1/3 eventually adds up.

A good example of some nobody gaining a bunch of levels would be Simo Häyhä; assuming he starts with 2 levels in commoner and 1 level in warrior when he starts sniping, he's about par for the average soldier (level 3 NPC). 100 days and 700 kills later, and he's bagged a lot of XP. Let's assume it's 200 poorly-trained greenhorns (CR 1), 300 regulars (CR 2), 150 veterans (CR 3), 40 competent guys (CR 5), and 10 guys classifiable as elite (CR 8). Our boy Simo has leveled up to 14 by the end of the war, complete with enough hitpoints to survive a crit to the head.

Can I sig this?

[molten_dragon]

We know that it's possible to advance NPC classes as far as you want. We also know that in a lot of prewritten adventures you have NPCs with NPC classes at strangely high levels despite that making no sense.

So here's a thought exercise. What kind of circumstances would result in a person advancing all the way from level 1 to level 20 as a Peasant?

I could see a commoner eventually advancing up to maybe 10th level if they lived long enough. Most commoners probably hunt from time to time to supplement the crops they raise. That would add up to a little XP over time. What's really going to stop them from going much higher than that is the rule that you don't get XP from anything with a CR less than your level - 8.

The only other way I could see it happening is if that particular commoner was a Forrest Gump type character who was involved in all kinds of important events, gaining him a ton of roleplaying XP.

[Hamste]

...I would imagine the executioner would also get a lot of levels. I mean they spend all day killing bandits, rogues and French kings. That alone must have gotten them a lot of experience.

[Spuddles]

Immortality and a lot of patience for killing game. CR 1/6 - 1/3 eventually adds up.

A good example of some nobody gaining a bunch of levels would be Simo Häyhä; assuming he starts with 2 levels in commoner and 1 level in warrior when he starts sniping, he's about par for the average soldier (level 3 NPC). 100 days and 700 kills later, and he's bagged a lot of XP. Let's assume it's 200 poorly-trained greenhorns (CR 1), 300 regulars (CR 2), 150 veterans (CR 3), 40 competent guys (CR 5), and 10 guys classifiable as elite (CR 8). Our boy Simo has leveled up to 14 by the end of the war, complete with enough hitpoints to survive a crit to the head.

I'm pretty sure that guy only had levels in ranger.


Except all the innkeepers are retired high level adventurers remember?

Perhaps the tavern wenches who manage to get laid and steal some adventurers coin would count as commoners and get XP nightly, but less so inn keepers.

Mmmm yeah gurl, roll for encounter. You ready for a CR this big? Gonna xp all over you.

[drack]

I could see a commoner eventually advancing up to maybe 10th level if they lived long enough. Most commoners probably hunt from time to time to supplement the crops they raise. That would add up to a little XP over time. What's really going to stop them from going much higher than that is the rule that you don't get XP from anything with a CR less than your level - 8.

The only other way I could see it happening is if that particular commoner was a Forrest Gump type character who was involved in all kinds of important events, gaining him a ton of roleplaying XP.
My field is infested with rabbits! :smalleek:
My field is being raided by goblins! :smalleek:
My field is infested with dire rabbits! :smalleek:
I should call the whole town so we can have us a rabbit run! :smallbiggrin:
My field is infested with fiendish dire rabits! :smalleek:
My field is infested with rabbit spirits! :smalleek:
My field is infested with rabbits of legend! :smalleek:

-some many years later-

My field is infested with devastating vermin! :smalleek:
My field is infested with behemoth rabbits! :smalleek:

... many rabbits later...

And that's how I became an epic commoner. It's not an easy job maintaining a field of crops in a low food high level world, but someone's gotta do it. :smallcool:

*Three months later farmer bob tripped and fell into a hole that some badgers dug, and slowly died of dehydration, unable to climb out with his broken legs.*

[CRtwenty]

You know it'd be cool if there was some sort of delayed but potentially awesome benefit to taking lots of levels in commoner. Sort of like Donnel the villager in Fire Emblem Awakening, who starts off terrible but has a neat ability that makes him really good later.

Upon reaching your 20th level in Commoner you gain the ability to grow the largest Pumpkins in the multiverse.

[Hamste]

Upon reaching your 20th level in Commoner you gain the ability to grow the largest Pumpkins in the multiverse.

...I can just imagine the optimization that would result from that (Probably from hiring a second 20th level commoner and grow ever growing pumpkins. Then you either smother everyone with pumpkins or make houses from it.)

[Keneth]

Don't commoners just get more common as they level up? I'm pretty sure the world is filled with high-level commoners who are so common you don't even acknowledge their existence.

[Venom3053000]

you a level 20 commoner you win D&D :smallbiggrin:

[CRtwenty]

Well there's that Egyptian Demigod who's a 20th level Expert. We could have a God of Commoners. I nominate this guy.

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs36/f/2008/267/9/e/Harvest_Moon___Jack_by_kouhei6.png

[Lord Vukodlak]

Except all the innkeepers are retired high level adventurers remember?Not true, in the campaign I'm in right now the principle Inn.(the one the party routinely visits). Is not run by some retired adventurer but by a young Bard of third level give or take... her husband is however a 13th level lawful evil cleric but then that's a PC.


Though really, it's pretty ridiculous how DnD makes commoners utterly incapable of combat. In real life, the purpose of a shepherd is to drive away or kill any wild animals that try to steal their sheep (up to and including bears and lions), but someone in DnD whose sole job is to herd sheep can be killed in one round by a house cat. I've always rather liked how in Dark Sun literally everyone can defend themselves in some fashion.
For awhile I ran with a rule for 3rd level being adulthood, 1st and second level were children and adolescents. I even had a few commoner based feats such as herder which gave them +2 to hit and damage against animals of 3HD or less. Not really useful for players but for a 3rd level commoner it means he can fight off a couple wolves using a longspear.
But I eventually realized it was all pointless D&D is about the player's experience

[Zonugal]

I love the idea of a 20th-level commoner. Just someone who is insanely, spectacular at being common.

Maybe someone who is just really good at evading danger? Never going on adventures but just avoiding death at every step.

[Segev]

For awhile I ran with a rule for 3rd level being adulthood, 1st and second level were children and adolescents.

I actually did the same thing, more or less, in the setting where I had psionics making humans suddenly a "problem" for the elves. Adults were 3rd level; anything less was pre-adult (with some rather young kids at first level). It made it easier for me to make starting PCs not victims of random dice, and avoid having to have things "too weak to stat." Because it's always the things that I thought were in that category that wind up, for one reason or another, NEEDING stats. >_<

[unseenmage]

My field is infested with rabbits! :smalleek:
My field is being raided by goblins! :smalleek:
My field is infested with dire rabbits! :smalleek:
I should call the whole town so we can have us a rabbit run! :smallbiggrin:
My field is infested with fiendish dire rabits! :smalleek:
My field is infested with rabbit spirits! :smalleek:
My field is infested with rabbits of legend! :smalleek:

-some many years later-

My field is infested with devastating vermin! :smalleek:
My field is infested with behemoth rabbits! :smalleek:

... many rabbits later...

And that's how I became an epic commoner. It's not an easy job maintaining a field of crops in a low food high level world, but someone's gotta do it. :smallcool:

*Three months later farmer bob tripped and fell into a hole that some badgers dug, and slowly died of dehydration, unable to climb out with his broken legs.*

Bravo. I havn't IRL lol-ed in a while. :smallsmile:

[Kerilstrasz]

A peasant walks a path atop of a high mountain..
He kicks a rock that fells of the cliff.. the stone lands on the head of a gargantuan dragon...
DM asks for attack roll.. 20,20,20... instant kill...
Dm makes this peasant level 30 just because he is too damn lucky..
He didn't make him a God because he needed a rock...

[ideasmith]

We know that it's possible to advance NPC classes as far as you want. We also know that in a lot of prewritten adventures you have NPCs with NPC classes at strangely high levels despite that making no sense.

So here's a thought exercise. What kind of circumstances would result in a person advancing all the way from level 1 to level 20 as a Peasant?

Isn't gaining XP without adventuring one of the benefits of being NPC class?

As far as I can tell from reading the rules, the rules for experience points only need apply to PCs, with a separate set of rules for cohorts.

[Ninja_Grand]

Immortality and a lot of patience for killing game. CR 1/6 - 1/3 eventually adds up.

A good example of some nobody gaining a bunch of levels would be Simo Häyhä; assuming he starts with 2 levels in commoner and 1 level in warrior when he starts sniping, he's about par for the average soldier (level 3 NPC). 100 days and 700 kills later, and he's bagged a lot of XP. Let's assume it's 200 poorly-trained greenhorns (CR 1), 300 regulars (CR 2), 150 veterans (CR 3), 40 competent guys (CR 5), and 10 guys classifiable as elite (CR 8). Our boy Simo has leveled up to 14 by the end of the war, complete with enough hitpoints to survive a crit to the head.

Dark.Revenant, I believe this is when I say "You won the thread"

[Tetsubo 57]

With the exception of Expert I cap all NPC classes at 5th level. There is never a justification to my mind for a 'high level' NPC.

[Berenger]

20th level peasant?

Easy, Charles Ingalls after 200+ episodes of Little House on the Prairie.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I remember an article in a 3rd party magazine about members of the NPC classes and how they leveled over time by doing their jobs and it gave examples of what an NPC of each class/level should be in the world.

Their take on the level 20 commoner was that each race has one who is a legendary figure who's been across the planes and back getting by on their wits and loads of plot armor. The one for humans is Jack as in Jack the Giant slayer (who has ore than one story), Jack o' lantern and possibly little Johnny jokes.

[ShurikVch]

Nodwick is 21st level.

With the exception of Expert I cap all NPC classes at 5th level. There is never a justification to my mind for a 'high level' NPC.
Forgotten Realms make them higher level then it.
Aristocrat:
Kestrel Vaylan
Lawful Good Chondathan human Aristocrat 6
Lady Kestrel Vaylan was the widow of Olaf Vaylan.
(Into the Dragon's Lair, p. 5)

Orbos Husteem
Lawful evil Human (Chondathan) Aristocrat 7
Orbos Husteem was a Chondathan human and the patriarch of the Husteem noble house of Waterdeep.
(Dungeon #126, p. 62-77)

Kayl Moorwalker
Lawful good Human Aristocrat 8/Fighter 4
Captain Kayl Moorwalker is both the First Elder of the Council of Elders and the High Captain of Everlund, in 1372 DR.
(Silver Marches, p. 77)

Mantelia Parsuns
Lawful good Half-elf Aristocrat 7/Sorceress 8
Lady Mantelia Parsuns was a half-elf aristocrat and sorceress and ruler of the city of Emmech (later known as Undumor) in 1374 DR. She owned a large amount of land from Emmech to the Dragonjaw Mountains.
(Unapproachable East p.107)

Cassandra Thann
Neutral good Human (Chondathan) Aristocrat 12
Cassandra Thann was the daughter of Zelphar Arunsun and the mother of Danilo Thann.
(City of Splendors: Waterdeep, p. 62)
Commoner:
Mother Tara
Chaotic good Lightfoot halfling Commoner 7
Mother Tara was a cheery halfling from the Vilhon Reach, who owned Mother Tara's Festhall in Shadowdale.
(Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land, p. 143)

Dela Alder
Neutral Human Commoner 10
Dela Alder is the proprietor of the Traveler's Cloak Inn within the city of Melvaunt.
(Mysteries of the Moonsea, p. 92)

Surrolph Hlakken
Chaotic good Illuskan Commoner 16/Vigilante 1
Surrolph Hlakken is a horsemaster as well as an information gatherer for the vigilante group known as the Red Sashes.
(City of Splendors: Waterdeep, p. 75)
Warrior: Duldelph Maremmon
Neutral Tethyrian human Warrior 9
Duldelph Maremmon was the leader of the Highmoon Trading Coster which operated throughout the Sword Coast.
(Power of Faerûn, p. 75)


Except all the innkeepers are retired high level adventurers remember?
Not all of them! :smallwink:

[Alex12]

You know how Pun-pun can gain all possible abilities? In my head, Commoners get that as a class feature at level 21, which also retroactively protects all Commoners, as well as anyone who could take levels in Commoner, from Pun-pun.

[hamishspence]

That's all homebrewed, though. By the rules of the game, the average levels are lower than that.

Which rules, though?

According to The Arms & Equipment Guide, an artisan is considered an apprentice until they have 7 ranks in their primary skill (which would require them to be at least 4th level) With 12 ranks (requires them to be at least 9th level) they earn the title of Master.

According to DMG2, a person with the Apprentice feat graduates from their apprenticeship (no longer needing to tithe to their Mentor) at 5th level.

And according to Cityscape, a typical Apprentice is 1st level, a typical Journeyman 5th level, and a typical Master 10th level (it has examples for various things- craftsmakers, city guard, nobles, cultists, thieves, etc).

DMG supports the notion of high level commoners- the highest level commoner in a Metropolis will have 4d4 + 12 levels.

[Keneth]

DMG supports the notion of high level commoners- the highest level commoner in a Metropolis will have 4d4 + 12 levels.

Luckily the level is capped at 20, because a level 28 commoner would be terrifying. :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

The DMG caps all randomly generated NPCs at 20th level.

If you allow for the Epic Handbook- Metropolises have a community modifier of +16 rather than +12, and no level cap. Planar Metropolises (even larger) have a modifier of +20.