e6 warblade optimization

[King-Strawberry]

Lvl 5 starting warblade.
str 16
dex 14
con 14
int 12
wis 8
cha 12

Having never played ToB before, what are the best maneuvers/tactics?
Also weapon/feat advice.
Thanks playground.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Honestly you can pick whatever sounds cool and it will work well, that is the beauty of ToB.

Having said that I'm partial to Iron Heart and Tiger Claw for warblades.

[Snowbluff]

Best tactics? Make things hurt.

Make sure to pick up Iron Heart Surge or White Raven Tactics. These maneuvers are incredibly powerful.

Warblades make excellent Chargers. Power Attack (Imp Bull Rush) + Shock Trooper, Leading the Charge (Stance), and Battle Leader's Charge (Strike) will rips enemies to shreds.

Using your feats to get more Maneuvers is generally a good idea.

Sapphire Nightmare Blade (Target is Flat-Footed) + Power Attack + Iaijutsu focus works well.

EDIT: I like Diamond Mind and White Raven quite a bit. :smalltongue:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Oh getting Cloak of Deception is awesome on warblades since they can effectively spam Greater invisibility (a great panic button) every two rounds and with E6 increased feat number it is a pretty good idea.

[Snowbluff]

Oh getting Cloak of Deception is awesome on warblades since they can effectively spam Greater invisibility (a great panic button) every two rounds and with E6 increased feat number it is a pretty good idea.

On that note, I think Sudden Recovery is a handy feat to have. Also, Shadow Jaunt so you can teleport.

Cloak of Deception and Shadow Jaunt are available through the underpriced (3000gp!!!) Shadow Hands if you have the prerequisite number of maneuvers.

Hunter's Sense gives you Scent, which is handy. Improved Scent increases the Range this works, and Uncanny Scent quadruples the range you can pinpoint people.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Cloak of Deception does't have requirements (other than IL). Shadow Hand items are strictly inferior because they are 1/encounter or 1/5 mins. Both Cloak of deception and shadow jaunt have a lot of utility in and out of combat, so I prefer to have them easily accessible all the time.

[Tvtyrant]

Well if you want to do maximum damage at level 1 you could pick a double weapon, use punishing stance and Wolf Fang Strike. By RAW that gets you 1.5 str on each of your hits, avoids the penalties to hit using Wolf Fang Strike, and gets you an extra 2d6 between them. So 2d6+2d8+3x your strength mod. With your character it would be 27 damage.

That is all silly, but it is an option. Punishing Stance is awesome at level 1 though.

[Zonugal]

I'd honestly say four levels of Warblade is ideal for E6. Anything two other levels in another class is still going to get you to third-level maneuvers/stances while opening up some unique features a Warblade wouldn't traditionally have access to.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Definitely get two levels of non-Warblade, you're best off going Warblade 1/ anything 2/ Warblade 3 for your build. Consider the following:

Barbarian 2, Wolf Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) to get Improved Trip instead of Uncanny Dodge, Lion Spiritual totem (CC) for Pounce in place of Fast Movement, and Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) in place of Rage. That opens up Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) as well, without spending a feat on Combat Expertise.

Fighter 2, Dungeoncrasher from Dungeonscape, and go with a large or powerful build race like Goliath and get the feat Knock-Back in RoS. That way every time you hit something you knock them back into a wall or other obstacle for considerable bonus damage.

Two levels of just about any full BAB class would actually work, but those are probably your best choices.

[Manly Man]

I'd honestly say four levels of Warblade is ideal for E6. Anything two other levels in another class is still going to get you to third-level maneuvers/stances while opening up some unique features a Warblade wouldn't traditionally have access to.

Indeed. I highly recommend that you spend those two levels on Psion, honestly. It gives you a boost to what will be an otherwise abysmal Will save (Moment of Perfect Mind can only be used so many times in battle), it synergizes well with the Intelligence, and you can get some very nice, albeit somewhat limited, tricks to do on top of all that Weeaboo Fightan Magic(tm).

By the way, I absolutely adore Tome of Battle. I just like the phrase too; I have seriously giggled out of nowhere because a voice in my head said that with a silly face.

[Barsoom]

I like Rogue 1/Barbarian 1/Warblade 4. Sneak attack (opening the way for more via Craven), Rage, totem powers (Spirit Lion isn't as impressive in E6, but still worth it for TWFers), plenty of skill points, and 3rd level maneuvers.

[Nightraiderx]

1 SA fighter/1 whirling frenzy pounce barbarian/ 4 warblade

Get two kuhkri, grab lightning maces from complete warrior, retrain ability to
krukri, get telling blow and craven and there you go have fun critting your enemies to death! (warning: does not work against undead and constructs)

[Fouredged Sword]

I second a psionic dip.

Another option is swordsage 2. Countercharge is a big deal, and there are lots of once per combat stuff you wouldn't dedicate a slot to on a warblade, that make great sense on a swordsage.

[cerin616]

i would take 2 levels other thing/ 4 levels warblade to get slightly better menuvers (not a big difference, but I find it better to be able to pick from just a bit more)

As for things that are good,

Stone Dragon's Mountain Hammer (or if you qualify for one higher in the line of these manuvers, then get that)

Ignore DR and Hardness of target and add 2d6 to your damage. Pretty much makes you godmode for breaking down doors.

[Talya]

It's E6. You really want your 2 non-Warblade levels to have full BAB. That iterative attack sets you apart as a heavy melee.

I second the Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian dip.

Your second non-warblade level can be anything you like with full BAB. (don't forget to check PrCs.)

[Fouredged Sword]

Also, consider Martial Study (devoted spirit healing strike), Martial Stance (Devoted Spirit healing stance), shape soulmeld (therapeutic mantle), and extra essence.

This means that, by spending a swift action (to assume the stance) and a standard action (to make the strike) you can heal 1d6+17 damage on top of hitting the other guy.

[ZamielVanWeber]

It's E6. You really want your 2 non-Warblade levels to have full BAB. That iterative attack sets you apart as a heavy melee.

There is also the option of taking 2 in Psychic Warrior. You get a little more MAD and lose that extra attack for the Deep Impact feat (which is usable the same time as maneuvers). IT depends on how often you use offensive maneuvers. They more you do, the better psion/psy warrior become (psy warrior gives 2 bonus feats for those 2 levels).

[cerin616]

I feel like at level 6 that ierary attack isnt all that necessary. Specifically as a warblade who, half the time, is going to use menuvers instead.

[Fouredged Sword]

With Steel Wind and the two weapon attack strike from tiger, a warblade can get away with +5 BAB. You can get an extra attack when you want.

Now barbarian can get you 2 extra attacks +4 strength and pounce, and that is hard to argue with. Extra rage in E6 means barbarian is a 2 level long class.

Note on psi war. Wild talent is a feat. Feats are cheep in E6. No need to dip a class for PP.

[cerin616]

warblade 4/swordsage 1/crusader 1

All. the. maneuvers.

[Fouredged Sword]

The warcrusasage would not be a horrid build. Delay damage pool, large pool of maneuvers and stances, and free weapon focus!

[cerin616]

The warcrusasage would not be a horrid build. Delay damage pool, large pool of maneuvers and stances, and free weapon focus!

its pronounce warswordsader

[Person_Man]

As others have said, because of the way maneuver progression works, you only need your last 4 levels to be Warblade. The other 2 levels can be anything. Options include Crusader, Binder, Totemist, Rogue, Psychic Rogue, Lion Totem Barbarian, Swordsage, Ranger, Psychic Warrior, and probably others, depending on what you want to maximize. If you're going for high damage, you'll want Totemist (5 or more natural weapons) or a full BAB class (so that you can take Shock Trooper and/or Leap Attack). If you're going for defense/utility/Skills/etc, any of the others will do fine.

There are very few truly terrible maneuvers or stances. So you can pretty much pick anything and you'll be fine. The most notable level 1-3 Warblade options are;

Moment of Perfect Mind/Action Before Thought/Mind Over Body (Counter 1/2/3): Replace a Saving Throw with Concentration checks as an Immediate Action (once per turn). Concentration checks are easy to optimize, so this basically allows you to become immune-ish to effects that require Saves. (Within the limits of Immediate Actions and your ability to refresh the maneuvers).
Emerald Razor (Strike 2) and/or Insightful Strike (Strike 3): Solid damage options. And they're Standard Actions, which somewhat negates the need for Pounce and/or extra/iterative attacks.
Pearl of Black Doubt (Stance 3): Increases AC by 2 for that round every time an opponent misses you. This is useful if your DM is fond of mobs of weak enemies or for certain attack of opportunity combos.
Wall of Blades (Counter 2): Use an attack roll in place of AC. Useful defense if you're not AC oriented, especially against touch attacks.
Iron Heart Surge (Boost 3): Ends any ongoing effect. Works really really well with the Foam Rager feat (PHB 2) which delays any effect by 1 round. Though again, you probably don't need this and Moment of Perfect... Counters as well.
Roots of the Mountain (Stance 3): A good default defensive stance useful in most situations, especially if you're using a reach weapon.
Blood in the Water (Stance 1): Stacking bonus until the end of the turn every time you hit an enemy. If you plan on making a lot of attacks per turn (Totemist/Warblade or similar) this is your stance.
Sudden Leap (Boost 1): Swift Action movement, which mostly negates the need for Pounce if you want to make a Full Attack action but don't need a Charge action (Leap Attack/Shock Trooper).
White Raven Tactics (Boost 3): Give an extra action to an ally (which theoretically includes you too). Generally considered one of the most powerful maneuvers in the book.

[Manly Man]

My favorite warcrusage/warswordsader/crusageblade/cruwarsage/swordsadeblade/swordwarsader build in E6 is actually to go Swordsage 2/Warblade 2/Crusader 2. You get a bit of everything, and eventually have the maneuver selection as though you were four levels in everything. You may lose the one point of BAB with the Swordsage, but because you get Weapon Focus for free, you may as well have the full six points, you just won't get the extra attack, and as everyone here has said, that's not going to matter much. The only problem is how MAD it can be, so I usually only do it for when I roll high enough stats to at least have a bonus in all the mental ones.

From what I've seen everyone else tell you, it's a good idea to go for the last four levels being a Warblade. Get whatever else you want in there, and really, you ought to do just fine.

[Nightraiderx]

I'd actually go for swordsage last in the swordsage2/ sader2/warblade2 and change it around to sader 2/wardblade 2/swordsage 2. now you have the most number of lvl 2's at your disposal that are good. (SH 2's, DW 2's) it'll prevent you from having to repeat too many.

[Fouredged Sword]

Bard 2 is also a good potion. Song of the White Raven makes for IC boosting and access to CLW wands without UMD is nice.

[Snowbluff]

Sausage2/Crust2/Warbler2 is actually a very bad idea. You should have at least 1 class with IL 5 so you can get third level maneuvers. Learning more Maneuvers are what the cheap as dirt items and feats are for.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Actually, Ardent 2 shouldn't be that bad. The whole "few powers" issue is balanced by the fact you only get 2 levels worth. No yummy feats, but you do get some mantle powers (some of which are useful/cool).

[Snowbluff]

If you are being cheesy, Ardent would be the best option, followed by Psion/Wizard. It has NO synergy, though.

Warbler4/Ardent2 with Practice Manifester and Martial Study taken at 6 for a 3rd level maneuver.

[JusticeZero]

You could look at Aegis for those last two levels, too. Dr 2, a few customization points (standard or abberant), odds and ends. Might be a good synergy in there.

[Alienist]

Dipping Barbarian for pounce is kind of lame. Just be a Dragonwrought kobold and take Dire Charge. The feat tax is nigh irrelevant in e6, whereas the class levels are the scarce commodity.

Hence burning class levels to duplicate something you can get from feats is bad.

Compared to Barbarian a two level dip in Paladin for Divine Grace actually looks good (if you have cha)

[the_archduke]

Two levels of psion would be excellent in this (with 4 of warblade).

Practiced manifester gets your ML up to 6. Then use one of the recharge tricks (which are usually too feat intensive, but in e6 this is no problem) and you have 5 level one powers that you can use with impunity. Vigor (30 temp hp), crystal shard (6d6 ranged touch attack), forcescreen (+5 shield ac) are a few of may favorites.

Int synergy, psionics, and access to psionic weapon/greater psionic weapon is potent in E6.

You would probably want a Wis of 13 if possible for Psychic Meditation. Are your stats locked?

[Squirrel_Dude]

I'd honestly say four levels of Warblade is ideal for E6. Anything two other levels in another class is still going to get you to third-level maneuvers/stances while opening up some unique features a Warblade wouldn't traditionally have access to.I'd actually almost recommend taking 2 levels before the 4 levels of warblade, so you can meet the reqs for higher level stances/maneuvers. Maybe 1 warblade for the hp, 2 fighter, 3 warblade. You definitely want the 6th level to be Warblade 4 so you can get a 3rd level stance.

[Zonugal]

Attaining a BaB of 6 is actually a really fair question. If you want access to tactical feats then you need a BaB of +6.

A nice build is something like Warblade 2/Crusader 1/Warblade 2/Pious Templar 1. You still reach third-level maneuvers, grab some solid healing maneuvers through Crusader and Pious Templar will give you Mettle & some light spellcasting all while hitting a BaB of +6.

Another build, if you are interested in psionics, is Warblade 1/Ardent 1/Warblade 3/Ardent 1. You reach third-level maneuvers and with practiced manifester you reach third-level powers as well. You'll only get access to one third-level power but thanks to expanded knowledge you can pick out which 1st & 2nd-level powers you want (and psionic feats are terrific in E6).

A more versatile build is something like Rogue 1/Warblade 4/Chameleon 1. BaB of +4 but you pick up trapfinding, third-level maneuvers and 1st & 2nd-level spells thanks to Chameleon. If you want to be able to craft magic items simply sub out the level of Rogue for Bard.


I'd actually almost recommend taking 2 levels before the 4 levels of warblade, so you can meet the reqs for higher level stances/maneuvers. Maybe 1 warblade for the hp, 2 fighter, 3 warblade. You definitely want the 6th level to be Warblade 4 so you can get a 3rd level stance.

Actually attaining third-level stances in E6 is ridiculously easy. The Martial Stance feat, unlike Martial Study, has no limit on how many times a character can take it. As long as you meet the prerequisites you can grab the stance.

[Barsoom]

Another build, if you are interested in psionics, is Warblade 1/Ardent 1/Warblade 3/Ardent 1. You reach third-level maneuvers and with practiced manifester you reach third-level powers as well. You'll only get access to one third-level power

How? I was under the impression Practiced Manifester never gives you additional powers, just increased manifester level with the ones you know.

[Person_Man]

How? I was under the impression Practiced Manifester never gives you additional powers, just increased manifester level with the ones you know.

You can gain additional Powers through the Expanded Knowledge feat, and additional Power Points a number of different ways. Though Expanded Knowledge only allows access to Powers one 1 level lower then than the highest-level power you can manifest. So you'd probably need something like Ardent 3/Warblade 3, unless you can find a way to manifest a 2nd level or higher power some other way. (Racial ability?)

This is also why Incarnum works well in E6, since you can gain essentia, soulmelds, and chakra binds with Feats.

[Barsoom]

I understand about Expanded Knowledge. But that's just more low-level powers. But the stuff he wrote about getting third level powers with only two levels of Psion ... can that be made to work, ever?

[Snowbluff]

How? I was under the impression Practiced Manifester never gives you additional powers, just increased manifester level with the ones you know.

It's quite simple. Ardent operates on the principle that your ML determines your level of powers know, rather than your levels in Ardent. A level 1 Ardent who started with 4 levels of Warblade and the Practiced Manifester feat is able to know fifth level powers, because 5 ML is enough to manifest them.

[Barsoom]

I see, thanks.

[King-Strawberry]

wow, thanks for all the responses guys, I guess dipping seems to be the way to go.
A bit more info, race must be human, so no goliath powerful build dungeoncrasher.
Stats are 28 pb.

[Manly Man]

If you want to get some decent bonuses out of everything and want to get Psionic Meditation for those delicious psionic feats (Psionic Weapon and Deep Impact, anyone?), you should probably go with something like:

Strength: 16
Dexterity: 12/10
Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 12/14
Wisdom: 13/14
Charisma: 7

You've got the Strength to still be quite functional, you can actually get something out of your Dexterity and Intelligence boni, and the Wisdom is necessary for Psionic Meditation. As well, it helps your Will save for when you don't have Moment of Perfect Mind available. Yeah, Warblades are flavored that they wanna be all famous and whatnot, but they'll have to find a better way than having a high Charisma score. Probably by efficiently nailing the bad guys, for one.

EDIT: Taking two off of the Dexterity and putting them on Intelligence will likely be more helpful if you plan on having levels as a Psion, or if you wanna go PsyWar, pump Wisdom up to 14 with it instead. I'd probably go for Psywar, since you only need one power point to do Psionic Meditation anyway, not the huge amount that the Psion gives, and that's pretty much the most efficient way to get it, since you get more bonus feats as a PsyWar.

Dem feats.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you want to combine Warblade, Swordsage, and Crusader, start out Swordsage 1/ Warblade 1/ Crusader 1, for Idiot Crusader shenanigans. That leaves you with only two Crusader maneuvers known, and you can spend two feats on Extra Granted Maneuver and Martial Study to get any 2nd level maneuver added to Crusader that ends up usable every round, such as Emerald Razor, Battle Leader's Charge, or Wall of Blades. Not to mention you'll be able to Crusader's Strike every single round when needed. That +6 BAB doesn't seem to matter any more.

I'd personally take the lower pointbuy for a level adjusted race/template, since in E6 level adjustment doesn't actually cost you any levels. Something large or with powerful build like Half-Ogre, Goliath, Half-Minotaur, or even a Half-Fiend variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630x&page=1) such as Goristro. Something like Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) or Quasilycanthrope (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) for DR and other benefits can be quite significant in E6 if you don't go with Half-Goristro. Feral and Shadow Creature are also pretty good. For a base creature, Wood Elf or Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) are good if you're not using Goliath or Half-Ogre, but good ol' Human works as well. In E6 race optimization is almost as important as class optimization, so don't neglect it.

[Keld Denar]

Relevant to discussion. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856174/CO_Diary:_Dungeon_CrasherWarblade)