Stalwart Warlocks and other ACFs

[rdcoll]

Hello all,

While exploring alternative class features for warlocks (or the lack thereof) I saw that Complete Mage has a sorcerer variant called "Stalwart Sorcerer", where the number of sorcerer spells known is reduced by one in exchange for extra hitpoints and proficiency and focus with a martial weapon. Has anyone seen something similar for a warlock?

On this subject, what alternative class features would you give to a warlock character in exchange for his Eldritch Blast (or 1d6 of it, at least)? Any thoughts? Would you allow a character to take proficiency with martial weapons and extra hitpoints, for something akin to the Stalwart Sorcerer?

I am eager to hear what people think. Thanks!

(Incidentally, if you know of any other cool warlock ACFs I would love to hear them!)

- Rob

[Kane0]

Just a sec, let me dig up the link.

Aha, here it is. AmberVael (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287276) has sone really good warlock stuff, both invocations and ACFs. I can't think of anyone else who has done ACFs, though many have warlock fixes and invocations.

In regards to switching out EB, many go for something akin to a Hexblades curse, which fits thematically and can e tweaked to comparable power. Other than that trading EB for better HD, BAB and some martial proficiency doesnt sound too out of place.

[Drachasor]

It also depends on if your group cares about Tier level for classes. Since the Warlock and many other classes deserve a flat boost if you're aiming for Tier 3.

[AmberVael]

First, you can find all official ACFs here. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=fm10h9r6qvt99kqclek7eanmn1&topic=7908) (At least, I'm pretty sure that's all of them). Unfortunately, Warlock only has two ACFs.

On Eldritch Blast, as I stated in the thread that Kane0 linked, I feel it is hard to make an alternate feature that really does it justice. It's not so much that Eldritch Blast is powerful, it's that it is a main feature of the class and has enough complexity that replacing it with something simple feels inadequate. But that's probably just me.

In terms of balance, taking a single d6 away from Eldritch Blast is vastly different than taking away Eldritch Blast entirely. Subtracting 3.5 damage is hardly noticeable. For a Stalwart Warlock style variant, removing one die is far too little, while removing all of it may be a bit much. What I might do is remove Eldritch Blast, grant proficiency with martial weapons, a couple extra HP, and maybe a few fighter feats (or full BAB, not a bad suggestion).

[rdcoll]

Hello all,

Thanks for the input and the links to AmberVael's ACFs - they have a particularly nice flavour to them. Also I am glad that abandoning the Eldritch Blast in favour of some fighting skill doesn't strike anyone as particularly ridiculous.

So would I be out of line to grant a warlock (in exchange for dropping Eldritch Blast entirely):

1. d8 hit die (instead of d6)

2. proficiency with all martial weapons
(Or would a smaller subset be appropriate? Pick three perhaps?)

3. either full BAB or a bonus feat
(I particularly like the idea of granting a feat like dash (+5 land speed) or something... almost giving the class the flavour of a warlock that belongs to a barbarian tribe.)

Does that sounds reasonable? Underpowered? Overpowered?

Thanks again for the input!

[Grod_The_Giant]

So would I be out of line to grant a warlock (in exchange for dropping Eldritch Blast entirely):

1. d8 hit die (instead of d6)

2. proficiency with all martial weapons
(Or would a smaller subset be appropriate? Pick three perhaps?)

3. either full BAB or a bonus feat
(I particularly like the idea of granting a feat like dash (+5 land speed) or something... almost giving the class the flavour of a warlock that belongs to a barbarian tribe.)

Does that sounds reasonable? Underpowered? Overpowered?

Thanks again for the input!
Underpowered. I'd grant everything you mentioned above (d8 HD, all martial weapons, full BAB). On top of that, I'd give a Duskblade-style progression for increasing casting-in-armor ability, and allow Eldrich Essence Invocations to apply to non-Eldrich Blast attacks-- say, take a standard action and make one attack at full BAB that carries the effect of the Eldrich Essence invocation.

[Gemini476]

For changing damage dealt by Eldritch Blast, why not treat it like some classes and such do Sneak Attack? Remove 5d6 from of final damage or something.

As an aside, removing 5d6 damage from EB and getting 5d6 SA (Applicable to EB, stacks with other classes) might be a good trade, although you'd be trading reliability of damage for, well, being able to sneak attack with things that are not EB.

Remember that if you remove Eldritch Blast then the list of invocations gets a bit smaller. You need something that can replace that. (Maybe Sneak Attack on top of what rdcoll posted?)

[rdcoll]

Sneak Attack is an interesting option, but I think I prefer the flavour of the Duskblade suggestion...

So, in exchange for the Eldritch Blast:

- d8 HD
- proficiency with all martial weapons and shields (except tower shields)
- full BAB
- at level 1, 0% arcane spell failure for light armour/shields
- at level 4, 0% arcane spell failure for medium armour/shields

Still underpowered or is it good to go?

[Kane0]

Sneak Attack is an interesting option, but I think I prefer the flavour of the Duskblade suggestion...

So, in exchange for the Eldritch Blast:

- d8 HD
- proficiency with all martial weapons and shields (except tower shields)
- full BAB
- at level 1, 0% arcane spell failure for light armour/shields
- at level 4, 0% arcane spell failure for medium armour/shields

Still underpowered or is it good to go?

Throw in and extra invocation per rank known and/or the ability to add an essence to a single attack (which takes a standard action as per a standard attack or full round action that does not provoke, your choice) and you should be good to go.

Edit: Or possibly 4 + Int skills /level instead if you like.

[Alienist]

Eldritch blast damage starts off way behind a barbarian with a 2H weapon and never catches up.

If you want to fiddle with them... You could give them the higher hit dice, and make sure they get an invocation at every level and it wouldn't shift them in their tier.

If you want a gishy warlock then why not glaivelock?

If you prefer duskblade, then why fart around with warlock, why not just take diskblade?

I'm not saying that in a pissy "if you love diskblade so much why don't you just marry it" way, I'm saying that because warlock is so poorly bolted on to the rest of the system that (as you've discovered) your customisation options are very poor. Feat support is bad and confusing. Invocation support is almost non-existent. Magic item support is on the endangered species list, and prestige class support is bad and confusing.

Taking Warlock and trying to turn it into something else is just setting yourself up for a world of pain. You'd be far better off figuring out what it is that you like about warlock and backporting it onto some other class.

If you like the idea of a fighter that casts spells without all that complicated spell casting crap, then warlock is a trap. It looks like a good chassis, but it isn't. It looks like a 'rules light' or "3.5essentials" kind of character, but the problem is that virtually every rule in the main game you're going to be sitting there scratching your head trying to figure out how warlock integrates with it. (Admittedly if you ditch EB then a majority of those headaches go away, but there were so many headaches that even losing 50%+ of them doesn't make for a good time)

[Drachasor]

Hmm.

What about:

1. Swordsage Maneuver/Stance Progression and Recovery system. Same Disciplines as the Swordsage.
2. Eldritch Blast can be used with any Maneuver instead whatever attack it would normally require.
3. Any Maneuvers that increase weapon damage, improve Eldritch Blast Damage.
4. Blast Shapes and Essences can be combined with Maneuvers using (2) as long as the Eldritch Blast attack still uses an attack roll.
5. Adaptive Style as a Free Feat at level 4 or something.

I think that's far more interesting and fun than just buffing some static stuff. Damage is improved as well (and in a more interesting way that just having EB be 1d6/level which would be another option).

[rdcoll]

Hello all,

An extra invocation feels like a bit much to me but extra skill points or the ability to add an essence to a regular attack might be cool.

As for the glaivelock, I do like this character concept but I was trying to explore something a little different - the glaivelock makes a temporary magical weapon whenever he needs it, but I was looking more for a warlock with a respectable level of skill with mundane weapons.

The swordsage suggestion sounds interesting but I really don't know enough about that class. Sounds like it might be worth looking into though...

Thanks for the suggestions!