Pathfinder: The "You can't hit me Duelist"

[MadBear]

So I'm about to start a campaign with a killer GM who lets us use a 25 pt buy (min/maxing is encouraged). The deal is we start at 13th level. The other players are playing a straight Cleric, Wizard, and Bard. I was asked to play the Big Stupid Fighter to fill out the party.

Well, not being one to fit into my role I've been working on making a ridiculous duelist character who wears no armor at all, but can dodge, and deal a good bit of damage. Oh, I also decided to make him a halfling. I feel that he have superior saves and defense to a fighter, while still putting out a very solid amount of damage.

Here it goes:

3 levels Monk/ 5 levels Fighter/ 5 levels Duelist

Stats:

Str-5 (7- racial)
Dex- 26 (20+ racial + 4/8th level increase + belt of dexterity)
Con- 12 (11 + 12 level increase)
Int- 16 (headband of mental prowess)
Wis- 16 (headband of mental prowess)
Char- 9 (7+2 racial)

Racial:
- Replace slow footed and sure footed with Fleet of Foot (Get back the 30ft movement)

Archetypes:
Monk:
-Monk of the Sacred Mountain- for the toughness and +1 natural armor
- Master of Many Styles- (for the 1st 2 crane style feats)
Fighter:
- Free hand fighter- (+1 CMB/CMD, +1 dodge AC, +1 attack/damage)

Feats: (7 for level, 2 for monk, 3 for fighter)
1.dodge
2. weapon finesse
3. ????
4. ????
5. crane riposte
6. improved critical
7. weapon specialization
8. combat expertise
9. weapon focus
10. panther style
11. crane style
12. crane wing

Gear:
- Monk Robes
- cloak of resistance +3
- amulet of natural armor +3
- Rapier - +3, agile,
- ring of protection +3
- Belt of incredible dexterity- +4
- headband of mental prowess- +2
- handy haversack-
- mage armor wand
- boots of speed

24,000 gold to improve this character

Defenses:

Ok, how does this little guys defense stand up against the big baddies

10+2 (monk innate bonus) +3 (amulet of natural armor) + 3 (ring of protection) + 4 (bracers of armor) + 8 (dexterity) + 3 (wisdom) + 3 (intelligence) + 1 (dodge) + 1 (free-hand fighter dodge)+ 1 (natural armor) + 3 (fighting defensively) + (size) +1 (dodge from haste) = 44 AC (36 dodge AC)

Oh, did I mention I get to ignore the first successful melee attack (crane riposte), and sometimes 2 (riposte)

Saves:
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 18
Will: 11 (+2 versus enchant effects, +2 versus fear)

Ok, so as you see, my defenses are very strong. So strong in fact that monster will need a 20 to hit , and when they miss (which they will) I get a free attack in their face.

Attack:
What will my attack look like? You're probably thinking I've sacrificed too much to be able to do any real damaged. Lets see.

12 (BAB)+ 8 (dexterity) + 3 (rapier) + 1 (haste) + 1 (free hand fighter)+1 (racial) +1 (weapon focus) - 1(fighting defensively) -4 (piranha strike) = 20

This puts my attacks at 22/17/12

The damage on this looks
1d4+ 8 (dex) + 3 (enchantment) + 5 (duelist) + 1 (free hand fighter) + 8 (piranha strike)+ 2 (weapon specialization)= 29.5 per hit

I also have a 25% chance to crit dealing ( 59 on average)

Overall I will do 44 damage without piranha strike and 39 damage with piranha strike. (the better hit chance ups the damage). So, my damage isn't the best, but it's not bad coming from a halfling with a pointy stick.

whew. that took alot more then I thought it would to pan it all out.

So any suggestions to up the ante and make this character better would be great. I feel like I have a great start.

bolded=edited

Update 1: I got ride of agile maneuvers and Piranha strike since they either do something unnecessary or are unusable. This leaves me 2 feats and 24,000 gold that I could useto make the halfling better

[Squirrel_Dude]

If you dont' want to be hit, you'll want some way to give yourself miss chance (*cough* Cloak of Minor/Major Displacement *cough*). I'd also recommend removing agile maneuvers, and replacing it with Dervish Dance so that you'll also be able to deal some semblance of damage.

Replace the Bracer's of armor with a wand of Mage Armor. It will be the same Armor bonus, but probably cheaper. That will let you buy some other weapon. I think there is something called duelist gloves that might be useful.

+4 Bracer's of Armor 16,000 GP
Wand of Mage Armor (CL 8*) 6000**

*2 castings will cover you the 16 hours you need to last until the casters demand you give them 8 hours of rest
** If you want you could even make it extended mage armor, and have it last 16 hours in one casting, and the wand would still only cost 12000 GP

[IronFist]

If you dont' want to be hit, you'll want some way to give yourself miss chance. I'd also recommend removing agile maneuvers, and replacing it with Dervish Dance so that you'll also be able to deal some semblance of damage.

Agile and Dervish Dance don't stack.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Agile and Dervish Dance don't stack.Then don't spend money on that enchantment for the weapon? Agile Manuevers isn't that useful anyway. You already get dex to disarm, trip, and sunder attempts with weapon finesse.

[IronFist]

Then don't spend money on that enchantment for the weapon? Agile Manuevers isn't that useful anyway. You already get dex to disarm, trip, and sunder attempts with weapon finesse.
He could use the feat slot for something else, but I don't see Dervish Dance being all that important at this level.
In fact, he would be better off using a monk weapon so he could use flurry of blows for an extra attack.
Also, duelist requires use of a piercing weapon for its class features.

[Squirrel_Dude]

He could use the feat slot for something else, but I don't see Dervish Dance being all that important at this level.
In fact, he would be better off using a monk weapon so he could use flurry of blows for an extra attack.
Also, duelist requires use of a piercing weapon for its class features.-.-

1. He only has 3 levels of monk so flurry won't be optimal anyway.
2.
d20pfsrd (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat) Dervish Dance Feat:
You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability)

Back to the OP: I'd recommend Vanara as a race (+2 dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha). Boosts to your two AC stats, penalty to almost every fighter dump stat, and a half decent set of racial abilities to boot. If not that, then I'd recommend Goblin over halfling because you get a larger boost to dex, with penalties to your dex and strength, and keep small size.

[Randomocity132]

Have you got something to let you retain your Dex when flatfooted?

[Krazzman]

A Continuous Item(or Use Activated on the Phrase: "Can't touch this!") of Mage Armor at CL 1 costs 2000 GP. (Unsure if in Crafting or buying)

So we are looking at a 2000 GP to 4000 GP cost against the 16000.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Saves:
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 18
Will: 11 (+2 versus enchant effects, +2 versus fear)Banshee (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/banshee), CR 13. Its signature attack is a wail, DC 23 fortitude save or take 140 damage. Also, it's incorporeal, has 60' blindsight, and +31 perception. It's probably getting a surprise round.

It also has a +26 touch, meaning it hits you half the time IF you have your dex bonus, and that's another DC 23 will save or lose if it hits.

Pump your saves.

[IronFist]

1. He only has 3 levels of monk so flurry won't be optimal anyway.

It would mean an extra attack for -1 to hit. How is that not optimal?

[gartius]

A Continuous Item(or Use Activated on the Phrase: "Can't touch this!") of Mage Armor at CL 1 costs 2000 GP. (Unsure if in Crafting or buying)

So we are looking at a 2000 GP to 4000 GP cost against the 16000.

Er... no you follow the pricing for armour not for spells as that is the more accurate approximation for the cost. So it still has a cost of 16000gp

[EyethatBinds]

-3 Str and a -4 size bonus to grapple, plus two classes that dip your BA? Enjoy being grappled to death. A huge Assassin Vine might be able to take you out.

[Kudaku]

A Continuous Item(or Use Activated on the Phrase: "Can't touch this!") of Mage Armor at CL 1 costs 2000 GP. (Unsure if in Crafting or buying)

So we are looking at a 2000 GP to 4000 GP cost against the 16000.

This item is not reasonably priced at either 2 or 4 000 GP. I'd either go with a wand or buy the bracers. At level 12 you should have a good chance of making the UMD check, if that doesn't work just ask a caster in the party to tap you with it.


In fact, he would be better off using a monk weapon so he could use flurry of blows for an extra attack.

Master of many Styles Monk does not have the ability to flurry.

OP, RAW you can't use Piranha Strike with a rapier or a scimitar since Piranha Strike specifies a "light weapon" - neither scimitars or rapiers are light weapons. You might be able to finaggle your GM into allowing it though, it's not a particularly overpowered option.

Your bab would 11, not 12, since Monk is a medium progression class.

You do not qualify for Improved Critical at level 6, though you have enough feat slots to move things around. Swap weapon focus and IC and you should be good.

With a strength of 5 and the small limit on carry capacity, it takes very little to push you overboard in the weight department, even with a Haversack. You should have an option for increasing your carry cap if necessary. A Belt of the Heavy Load and/or Muleback cords should do nicely.

Your saves are fairly low for a game at that level.

Finally, if I were you I'd seriously consider trying to fit some miss chance into that build.

[Krazzman]

Er... no you follow the pricing for armour not for spells as that is the more accurate approximation for the cost. So it still has a cost of 16000gp
Let's say that this claim is true, then you have would price a once daily use item of Protection from evil at (8000(2x2x2000) + 4000(2x2x1000)x1.5)/5 = 2800 GP.

This item is not reasonably priced at either 2 or 4 000 GP. I'd either go with a wand or buy the bracers. At level 12 you should have a good chance of making the UMD check, if that doesn't work just ask a caster in the party to tap you with it.

The rules are quite clear on that.

Either compare it to another similar item or use the following:

Magic Item Creation:
Table Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values

Spell effect:
Use-activated or continuous
spell level x caster level x 2,000 GP x Special.

Special = 4(round/level effect), 2 (minute/level), 1.5 (10 mins/level) and 0.5 (24 hour or greater).

Mage Armor has a duration of hour/casterlevel so this:
1 x min 1 x 2000 x 1 = min 2000.

Is it reasonably priced compared to armor Enhancement Bonus? Not really.
Was it created via RAW? Yes.
Should RAI differ? Yes.

A similar item to compare it to should be a Mithral Chainshirt. Or similar. Comparing it to something without Armor Check Penality and Arcane Spell Failure most likely not bracers of armor.
As the spell gives an Armor Bonus. Not an Enchantment Bonus, or Deflection or Natural armor or an (other) bonus. It gives a specific armor bonus that only the Chainshirt is really comparable to.

[Kudaku]

First of all those bracers are not RAW - in fact they're quite literally the opposite.

Secondly you should note that the pathfinder take on custom magic items are not rule-based, they're "guidelines" akin to the CR system.

The first sentences on that section (my bolding) reads as follows:


Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.

The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item. If you discover a loophole that allows an item to have an ability for a much lower price than is given for a comparable item, the GM should require using the price of the item, as that is the standard cost for such an effect. Most of these loopholes stem from trying to get unlimited uses per day of a spell effect from the "command word" or "use-activated or continuous" lines of Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.

I believe that was the table you used for your price estimate.

A bracer with continuous mage armor is identical to bracers of armor +4. In fact, a bracer with continuous mage armor is actually used an example of how players can exploit the custom magic item rules, and why it's important for GMs to consider alternative items:


Example: Patrick's wizard wants to create bracers with a continuous mage armor ability, granting the wearer a +4 armor bonus to AC. The formula indicates this would cost 2,000 gp (spell level 1, caster level 1). Jessica reminds him that bracers of armor +4 are priced at 16,000 gp and Patrick's bracers should have that price as well. Patrick agrees, and because he only has 2,000 gp to spend, he decides to spend 1,000 gp of that to craft bracers of armor +1 using the standard bracer prices.

An item with unlimited charges of Mage Armor that requires a command word is in my opinion functionally similar to a continous effect (you only need to activate it once an hour, and thus can assume almost 100% uptime), and therefore i think it should also be priced in the vicinity of 16k.

An item with LIMITED charges of Mage Armor might get some more traction, since the player would have to balance uptime vs price - that is up to the GM. Considering that you can buy potions of MA for 50 gp a piece I probably wouldn't price that item terribly high.

However, you specifically said Continuous in your first post, and never mentioned charge limitations. RAW and RAI, continuous or unlimited use-items that provide AC bonuses should be priced according to similar items - a CL1 continuous Shield of Faith ring (better example than Prot from Evil for obvious reasons) would be priced on the same level as a ring of protection +2.

[Krazzman]

First of all those bracers are not RAW - in fact they're quite literally the opposite.

Secondly you should note that the pathfinder take on custom magic items are not rule-based, they're "guidelines" akin to the CR system.

Then GLAW.


The first sentence on that section reads as follows:

I believe that was the table you used for your price estimate.

A bracer with continuous mage armor is identical to bracers of armor +4. In fact, a bracer with continuous mage armor is actually used an example of how players can exploit the custom magic item rules, and why it's important for GMs to consider alternative items:

Yes. Exactly.


An item with unlimited charges of Mage Armor that requires a command word is in my opinion functionally similar to a continous effect (since you only need to activate it once an hour, and thus can assume almost 100% uptime), and therefore i think it should also be priced at 16k, or very close to it.

This is the point where you are "wrong" in my opinion. You shouldn't compare them to Bracers of Armor. More to a Masterworked Mithral Chainshirt or and this is the only way I can see this at a price of 16k as a +1 Studded Leather with Ghosttouch (not calculating the MW and armor cost as well as something removing spell failure.)


An item with LIMITED charges of Mage Armor might get some more traction, since the player would have to balance uptime vs price - that is up to the GM. Considering that you can buy potions of MA for 50 gp a piece I probably wouldn't price that item terribly high.

However, you specifically said Continuous in your first post, and never mentioned charge limitations. RAW and RAI, continuous or unlimited use-items that provide AC bonuses should be priced according to similar items - a CL1 continuous Shield of Faith ring (better example than Prot from Evil for obvious reasons) would be priced on the same level as a ring of protection +2.

Only took pfe since I have calculated them before.

[Kudaku]

Did you read the quote I posted? The book quite literally uses the item you describe as an example of an inappropriate item and instead prices it according to Bracers of Armor.

I have a hard time seeing how you can make an argument that a continuous Mage Armor item for 4k is GLAW when it's explicitly mentioned as NOT a legal item.

[Krazzman]

Did you read the quote I posted? The book quite literally uses the item you describe as an example of an inappropriate item and instead prices it according to Bracers of Armor.

I have a hard time seeing how you can make an argument that a continuous Mage Armor item for 4k is GLAW when it's explicitly mentioned as NOT a legal item.

Yes, I read that and discarded that as another weak argument of guys thinking "hey that is similar" while it is not.

Comparing Bracers of Armor to Mage Armor is more like... comparing pizza to muffins with cheese/tomato topping. Tasty but still no real substitute.

Mage armor gives an armor bonus while bracers of armor give an enhancement bonus.

For GLAW I didn't say the 4k is the one it is the comparing part of either going with Mithral chainshirt or the ghosttouch armor.

EDIT:
Or to simplify. Bracers of Armor != good similar item.
Mithral Chainshirt = close similar item.
+1 Ghosttouch Studded Leather = closest possible item.

Again I'm not saying the 4k is GLAW I'm saying that proper comparing is GLAW and that there you should not go with Bracers of Armor as they could stack.

[MadBear]

Thanks everyone for the tips so far.

@Kudaku- The feats are in no particular order since I'm starting at 13th level. Also my BAB would be 12 at 13th level (-1 for monk).

After looking back over everything, I agree I need to find a way to get my saves up. What would you suggest?

Also, since I can't use piranha strike that frees up a feat slot as does agile maneuvers (I thought it did something else anyway).

@GoodbyeSoberDay- Besides the wail, the banshee has a 0% chance of hitting me. It would only be making 1 attack per round, and crane riposte would take care that. Now, if were facing multiple banshee's I would be in more trouble (although that is more due to my saves, which is what I'm working on now).

[Kudaku]

Yes, I read that and discarded that as another weak argument of guys thinking "hey that is similar" while it is not.

Considering that quote is taken directly from Ultimate Equipment I don't think you're in a position to disregard it and still claim you are RAW or GLAW. Feel free to look it up, it's on P. 170 under the "Magic Item Creation" section.


Comparing Bracers of Armor to Mage Armor is more like... comparing pizza to muffins with cheese/tomato topping. Tasty but still no real substitute.

Mage armor gives an armor bonus while bracers of armor give an enhancement bonus.

That is incorrect, both Mage Armor and bracers of Armor give armor bonuses.


For GLAW I didn't say the 4k is the one it is the comparing part of either going with Mithral chainshirt or the ghosttouch armor.

EDIT:
Or to simplify. Bracers of Armor != good similar item.
Mithral Chainshirt = close similar item.
+1 Ghosttouch Studded Leather = closest possible item.

Again I'm not saying the 4k is GLAW I'm saying that proper comparing is GLAW and that there you should not go with Bracers of Armor as they could stack.

I'm not actually sure what you're trying to say here. For what it's worth a +1 ghost touch studded leather armor would cost more than the BoA (16100+material for the armor, 16k for the bracers) and still be inferior since it has a 15% spell failure chance (that goes down to 5% if you apply Darkleaf Cloth, which will bring the cost up further).

@Puppytickler:

Ah, my bad - I saw you only counted feats to 12 and assumed 12 was your final level.

Your saves are not terrible per se, but as the game develops there is an increasing tendency for characters to have one or two "good saves" which they rarely fail and one "bad save" which they fail quite often. It's an unfortunate side effect of the saving throw table and how characters place ability scores.

There isn't all that much you can do about it other than be aware of it and try to meet your shortcomings - for instance protection from evil stops many charm/domiantion spells, make sure you carry some antidotes and anti disease effects and so on.

Iron Will/Great Fortitude might help a little, but I can't really think of a good "fix" without radically changing your build.

[Blyte]

I suggest scorpion style at some point to keep the monsters from ignoring your hard target and going for more squishy prey. reducing their move to 5 will help keep them interested.

[EyethatBinds]

AC really isn't all it's cracked up to be. A Fighter4/Sorcerer4/Spellsword5 with a lesser metamagic of quickening could hit you pretty easily. Just doing some quick estimations, even with a Strength of 15(elite array) and a single buff spell (bull's Str) would have a +37 to hit with a masterwork sword, given even a slightly below average roll.

If he has a spell storing weapon (my new favorite enchantment) he could target you with Ray of Enfeeblement and knock your strength score to 1 in a single hit. Then your magic items and weapons would be too heavy to lift.

[Segev]

Well, he is ignoring the first two hits of a round, period, it sounds like.

Still, a means of converting an AoO to a five-foot step might not be remiss.

Given your likely somewhat obnoxious taunting style, having a wand or ring or the like that can cast Mirror Image would probably be a great idea.

Maybe an amulet shaped like a flanged mace head with each flange a silver mirror, which spins during combat to create a mirror image each round up to a maximum of 8?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

@GoodbyeSoberDay- Besides the wail, the banshee has a 0% chance of hitting me. It would only be making 1 attack per round, and crane riposte would take care that. Now, if were facing multiple banshee's I would be in more trouble (although that is more due to my saves, which is what I'm working on now).1. If your character has less than 140 HP, "besides the wail" may be irrelevant.

2. If your character is denied his dex bonus to AC (Banshee pops out of the ground and touches you), not only does it hit on a 2, you don't get to use the Crane line any more. Whether or not it uses the "pop up from the ground" tactic depends on how evil your killer DM is. This might require your allies' help, but try to get all-day flight and something to detect enemies. It'll help negate those moments where you're denied Dex to AC.

[Segev]

By this level, the party cleric should be able to provide some provision against death effects.

[Andvare]

Get a couple of Quick Runner's Shirts (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/shirt-quick-runners), and you'll have a pounce option.
Also, some kind of flight would be nice.

[HylianKnight]

This kind of optimization isn't my area of expertise, but two quick things I noticed.

1. You need to learn style feats in order (i.e. Crane Style -> Wing -> Riposte).
2. Level 3 Monks get +10 to movement so you'll have 40 feet of movement now.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Have you considered changing your rapier from +3 Agile to +2 Agile Defending (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/defending)? That could give you another +2 AC.

[Amphetryon]

OP:

Have you considered what your damage output is going to be (particularly if there's not a houserule in effect re: Improved Critical), relative to the rest of the party, and how you'll deal with a variety of threats? If your "big stupid fighter" is both nigh-unhittable AND not a consistent threat on the damage front, the DM will potentially be forced to metagame to have the enemies come after you before dealing with the Wizard and the Cleric.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I would recommend using some of that money on a second ring (of some kind). Unfortunately, it can't be a miss chance or a resistance bonus (as I understand it) because those bonuses are already covered in other items.

Just to make you aware of the option:
Wand of Blur (CL 10) (Min/level): 15,000
Wand of Displacement (CL 10) (Rnd/level): 22,500
Wand of Extended Blur (CL 5) (2*Min/Level): 11,250

I'd recommend the Wand of Extended Blur, if you're going to get a wand to give you miss chance at all. Displacement simply isn't that handy because it's duration is so bad.


It would mean an extra attack for -1 to hit. How is that not optimal?1. Because the penalty to hit is -2 to all attacks, not -1.

2. Because this is the the list of weapons with the "monk" quality that can have weapon finesse apply to them, and do more base damage than 1d4 damage (medium creature) or have an 18-20 crit range.


There aren't any

[grarrrg]

After looking back over everything, I agree I need to find a way to get my saves up. What would you suggest?

Halfling Opportunist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/halfling-opportunist) always comes to mind for non-caster Halflings.
It's basically a Rogue, add a good Will Save. At 2nd and 4th you get an extra +1 All Saves to your Racial bonus.
The Sneak Attack can be handy to boost your damage potential as well.
Biggest downside is the 3/4 Bab, when you already have a drop from Monk.


1. Because the penalty to hit is -2 to all attacks, not -1.

Flurry is a -2 to all attacks, BUT you use Monk levels as if Full Bab.
So from levels 1-to-4, it is effectively a -1 penalty to Flurry.


2. Because this is the the list of weapons with the "monk" quality that can have weapon finesse apply to them, and do more base damage than 1d4 damage (medium creature) or have an 18-20 crit range.

There aren't any

Agreed (that and the archetype he picked doesn't get Flurry anyway).

[IronFist]

Didn't catch the archetype losing flurry. Regardless, base damage hardly matters.