What Next? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Geordnet

2013-07-30, 01:19 AM

So, a lot of things have been happening in rapid succession lately. (In terms of strip number, I mean. I'm not talking about real-time-wise because of forum rules and all.)

First the IIFC call in V's debt, then the gate is destroyed, then Team Evil shows up, then the MitD demonstrates remarkable character growth, and finally Malack is dusted (freeing Durkula).

So, assuming this string of rapid plot development continues, what does everyone think is going to happen in the immediate future (as in, the next half-dozen strips or so)? What will Durkula do, now that he's no longer a thrall? What about Nale and Z? Where have V and Tarquin gone to? How is the Order going to survive the Si elemental's assault? Or is something completely unexpected going to happen, like not-dead Thog riding in on a unicorn?

(REMINDER: Please keep the discussion in terms of strip numbers and not chronological time periods, according to the forum rules. We don't want the thread to be locked.)

thereaper

2013-07-30, 04:38 AM

Durkon is most likely going to side with his friends. A major theme of the strip (and this arc, especially) has been that even evil people have loved ones.

We have zero reason to think that Durkon becoming evil will make him suddenly not care about his only friends.

Besides, the end of the world would be bad for him. It is in his own best interest to help them save it.

Obviously, they won't want to accept Durkon back (and may initially refuse). But eventually, they'll have to let him rejoin simply because they won't have much choice. They need a high level cleric (which don't grow on trees unless the plot requires it), and even if they could find another one there simply isn't time. Xykon is at Kraagor's Dungeon right now, and they need to get there yesterday.

Besides, if they can deal with Belkar, they can deal with an evil Durkon.

Silverionmox

2013-07-30, 06:10 AM

Durkon will want to attack Nale, regardless of the effects of his transformation. Z does not have unlimited greater dispel spells and Durkon does have the staff, so it'll quickly become clear they won't be able to exploit that weakness against Durkon. Durkon will also call back his demon. Z will in response call back his demon too, relieving the order even more. In this situation a badly hurt Nale will quickly order Z to grab his coattails and fly away to celebrate the burning of Malack and live to plot another day, leaving the demon to cover their retreat. The demons will cancel each other out.

That leaves Durkon free to aid the order, and with that goal he will use the one spell we know he has remaining, putting us on the front row for a battle of a Silicon Elemental vs. Giant Vampire Dwarf With A Hammer. This will also unambiguously make clear to the Order whose side vampire Durkon is on.

By that time V will have crawled out of the debris, the Order rejoins and departs for Kraagor's gate. And then it's about time for Rich's yearly holiday I suppose.

Kish

2013-07-30, 06:45 AM

sam79

2013-07-30, 07:28 AM

Short-term, I think Durkon will save the Order, allowing Nale (and possibly Z) to escape.

Medium- term: I don't know, but I think the soultion will end up with Durkon re-joining his old team-mates, and then going back to his homeland. V will escape/be released and rejoin the team too, and Belkar die during the next arc.

Long-term; the story will end happily for Elan, which will involve (IMO) him and Haley being alive and together at the end, Tarquin and co being defeated, Xykon being destroyed and Roy living to fight another day. Beyond that...I wouldn't be prepared to bet.

Tamari

2013-07-30, 07:36 AM

Ah, the remaining Thor's Might. Beautiful. Thank you, Silverionmox. And seeing how long ago this transformation was planned, I guess new, better fitting name is already prepared :smallyuk:

Yes, I too believe Durkon will rejoin the Order, what else is there for him to do? And that will be very interesting... particulary for Belkar. Consider, the dwarf has always been his verbal punching bag - and he was so passive and flegmatic he simply endured it with a frown. Now, this will very likely change, what with the evil alignment and Energy drain (literally) always at hand... Not to mention, the little psychopath already seemed quite disturbed by this turn of events - some change in the evil pecking order within the Order might do him good.

snikrept

2013-07-30, 08:15 AM

Short-term, Durkon is going to fight for his {un}life against Nale.

Can he even cast Thor's Might when he's no longer a cleric of Thor?

How any Greater Dispels does Z have prepared?

Ill Made Knight

2013-07-30, 08:22 AM

Nale looks almost dead (the damage he's taken is similar to how he was drawn on 1 hit point when Malack hit him with Harm), and Z is running low on high level spells (both his non-specialist 7th level spells are gone, as are two 6th level slots). At this point retreat is probably their best option (especially since Durkon now has the staff that contains more Protection from Daylight spells).

Longer term. Durkon saves the order, thus winning them over (kinda), and becoming a more interesting character (thus far he's generally rated 6th of 6 in terms of fan interest). V gets let back, after some well chosen words from the fiends, and the order resolves to stick together anyway (with Belkar potentially dying en route). Tarquin reveals more important stuff, including potentially the fact that he knew Xykon once, while leaving us to guess at much more.

Cue the final Gate adventure, re-uniting with 2 useful Paladins, and a more traditional dungeon (much like the first one), where they take multiple days to get through the many foes, and we get more team building and fleshing out of roles. The final Gate is lost/something happens to screw with everyone's plans (perhaps the destruction/retreat of Xykon), which means more has to be done and one last mission (perhaps to Xykon's hidden fortress in the Astral Plane). Many plots are going to have to weave into this, and surprises we don't see coming, so I'm guessing a pretty huge Dungeon is coming up (which may still not be the end, there could be another book after- and let's not forget Tarquin).

Jay R

2013-07-30, 08:40 AM

I didn't predict that Malack was a vampire.
I didn't predict that Belkar would survive fighting a vampire.
I didn't predict that Durkon would become a vampire.
I didn't predict that Vaarsuvius would be forced to mere observer status by the IFCC.
I didn't predict that they would survive an explosion by getting in a fridge sarcophagus.
I didn't predict that Nale would successfully destroy Malack.

I'm pretty sure I won't predict the next move either.

Klear

2013-07-30, 08:46 AM

Jay R

2013-07-30, 04:15 PM

Doesn't matter - just tell us what you thing will happen and we'll know it will be the opposite =P

You asked.

Vaarsuvius re-appears, Durkon recovers his free will, unrolls the carpet, and the entire Order flies into the rift. Vaarsuvius examines the world inside and realizes that it is the creation of Kraagor. Evidently, the Snarl was born of frustrated creative impulses, and can be re-shaped into anything, by anyone who invokes its power. Belkar, in his weakened state, moans, but based on previous experience, Vaarsuvius misunderstands him. Vaarsuvius says, “I don’t need to listen to you snarl, I tell you!” These last four words, said for all the wrong reasons, grant Vaarsuvius the power of re-shaping the Snarl.

With ultimate arcane power, Vaarsuvius flies to the Snarl, and reshapes it into a giant script, which reads, "Guess what spell I cast before re-shaping the Snarl, halfling?" Belkar looks up, reads the Snarl, and dies from the ensuing explosion. The words themselves (and therefore the snarl) disappear forever.

As Xykon and Redcloak complete the ritual at Kraagor’s gate, the gate opens, and out flies the carpet with the Order of the Stick on it. The Dark One leaves, since the ritual is now worthless (with the Snarl gone).

Roy dies defeating Xykon, using his grandfather’s move against the spellcaster. The death of Xykon ends the blood oath, and Roy has earned his eternal reward. In lieu of paradise, he is given a picture of his father's face when Eugene first heard that Roy was going up but he wasn't.

Elan and Tarquin have a final epic battle, in which Elan finally defeats him in a properly story-driven way. The Empress of Blood tells Elan to strike down his father and take his place by her side, but Tarquin kills her, dying in the process. Elan begins singing a song about the epic battle between Elan and the Empress, in which Tarquin appears only once, in a single quick mention as one of the Empress's flunkies. In the pullback, we see Tarquin's long-lost sled Rosebud.

On his way home with Haley and Haley's dad, Elan complains that without his best buddy Roy, he didn't really get a happy ending. Haley tries to cheer him up, but Elan is inconsolable.

The final panel reveals that on the road in front of them, they are about to find a whistle.

Anatares

2013-07-30, 05:21 PM

I think Durkon will immediately attack Nale, and succeed in mortally wounding if not killing him. Even though he wasn't thrilled to learn his friend Malack was a vampire, his own current state and Malack's reasoning for it may bring some emotions to the surface. And if he has truly gone Evil due to the vampirism, he will have no qualms or hesitation in killing Nale outright for the destruction of his friend. Also, Durkon will be successful in doing some damage because Nale and Sabine both have remarked that they cannot handle clerics, back in #806 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html) #811 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0811.html). Sure he's got Zz'dtri available for the fight, but how many spells has he used today, and would they be of any use against an evil vampire cleric? He's tailored to fight V, not Durkula.

After that battle, Durkon may attempt to help his former party, but whether or not they accept him within their ranks again is up in the air. Roy may take him on for their friendship and in order to get him resurrected at some point in the future, but Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html) and Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0645.html) may have strong objections based on alignment. It might be Belkar that swings the vote back in Durkon's favour.

Tarquin... Not sure. I strongly doubt it escaped his notice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html) when Malack used his second Protection from Daylight spell on Durkon. He may have left the room to form some sort of contingency plan against Nale when he watched his friend make himself vulnerable before going off with him, but as the Giant has said himself in other threads, Malack is gone and will never come back. So I don't know what that plan could involve since it most assuredly will not bring Malack back. Maybe something to undermine Sabine or the IFCC? Could be interesting.

V is still unknown at this point, as quite a number of rounds would have to pass before his time is up. I think he's still on this side of the rift and alive, but where the rest of the party will be is up in the air.

Fish

2013-07-30, 05:40 PM

Evil Durkon will use his wiles to turn Nale and Z against each other. After all, Durkon just rescued V from the salad dressing plane; that piece of information could turn Z against Qaar ... who is a demon like Sabine ... who is Nale's girlfriend. It could happen.

The Pilgrim

2013-07-30, 06:18 PM

Now that Durkon is free, his first move will be to return to the Order and help them. He may be Evil now, but he is still lawful, and nothing prevents an evil beign from being loyal to friends - well, as long as it suits his plans.

There is one spell Durkon hasn't cast yet - his signature Thor's Might. Guess what spell will cast to defeat the Elemental? Nergal's Might. :smallbiggrin:

Then there is the question if Durkon will reveal his new self to his allies. Malack could disguise his vampire self, so why not Durkon? The only party member who really witnessed the transformation was Belkar, who isn't reliable to Roy. If Durkon says he is not a vampire, Roy will belive him. I see coming a panel in wich Durkon will tell Belkar to better stay quiet and, in fact, appreciate the new evil party member he can ally with. Just imagine, a vicious little bastard like Belkar being guided by a lawful wise big bastard like Durkon. Maybe we will see vampire Belkar after all.

Then they travel to dwarven lands, where Durkon attemps to seize control of his Clan and turn it into a Vampiric County. Durkonvania ahoy.

But I'm disgressing too much. Ok, Durkon is free, Durkon rejoins the OOTS, Durkon dusts the Elemental... then here comes the upcoming surprise attack from Tarquin with all his team. Nale and the OOTS will team up in order to survive the attack of the old man.

Menarker

2013-07-31, 11:12 AM

Then there is the question if Durkon will reveal his new self to his allies. Malack could disguise his vampire self, so why not Durkon? The only party member who really witnessed the transformation was Belkar, who isn't reliable to Roy. If Durkon says he is not a vampire, Roy will belive him. I see coming a panel in wich Durkon will tell Belkar to better stay quiet and, in fact, appreciate the new evil party member he can ally with. Just imagine, a vicious little bastard like Belkar being guided by a lawful wise big bastard like Durkon. Maybe we will see vampire Belkar after all.

The entire party sans V has already seen Durkon in his vampire state. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0893.html)

F.Harr

2013-07-31, 12:54 PM

The LG will scram. Possibly under the onslaught of Durkula and his critter (who first kills the other critter). Then Durkula uses Thor's Might to battle the elemental. V awakens and turns it into glass that Durkula can then shatter. Haley dies in the conflict. Durkula uses his prepared resurrection to bring her back, but that prohibits him using it on himself. So, in order to bring Haley back to life, he has to sacrifise his own chance at restoration. He can get no new spells from Thor, although he still worships him, and there's no time futz around getting another cleric to do it. They meet Hinjo, explain what the hell is going on, rush off with help following (the carpet can only carry so many) and Durkula turns out to be a lot more pro-active than Durkon was. He becomes more realised as a person now that he's dead. Undead. Whatever. Anyway, the more time Durkula exists, the less he wants to return to being Durkon.

The Pilgrim

2013-07-31, 02:31 PM

The entire party sans V has already seen Durkon in his vampire state. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0893.html)

:durkon: aye, aye... but everyone knows that slaying the master vampire removes vampirization from his victims.

:roy: I'm not sure the rules work that way...

:elan: Come on Roy, it's a common trope in horror movies!

:durkon: And I'm the only party member with ranks in "Knowledge: Undead" anyway.

veti

2013-07-31, 04:09 PM

:durkon: aye, aye... but everyone knows that slaying the master vampire removes vampirization from his victims.

:roy: I'm not sure the rules work that way...

:elan: Come on Roy, it's a common trope in horror movies!

:durkon: And I'm the only party member with ranks in "Knowledge: Undead" anyway.

Nah, that's a stretch too far. He has to disguise the eyes, the teeth, the speech bubbles... Malack had centuries to practice these things, Durkula hasn't even tried yet. And Roy is Durkon's closest friend, so the impression has to be perfect. First time.

Even if he could get past that, the masquerade would only last until Durkula got included in one of Elan's "Mass Cure Light Wounds", or the staff runs out of charges, or he is expected to cast a domain spell, or... there are just too many tells to cover up for long.

Porthos

2013-07-31, 04:14 PM

Nah, that's a stretch too far. He has to disguise the eyes, the teeth, the speech bubbles...

Not to mention the different skin tone.

The Pilgrim

2013-07-31, 04:50 PM

Not to mention the different skin tone.

That didn't prevented Darth Varsuuvius from being accepted as normal in the Group - after somme suport from Belkar.

:belkar: "Welcome to the deep end of the alignment pool"

Porthos

2013-07-31, 04:58 PM

That didn't prevented Darth Varsuuvius from being accepted as normal in the Group.

They have reason to suspect Durkon is a vampire. Lots of reasons. Not even the OotS can blow spot checks that badly. :smallwink:

Besides, you started this all off by saying, "Malack could disguise his vampire self, so why not Durkon?"

Well, all Malack did was raise his voice pitch and not vamp out his eyes. Aside from that it wasn't much of a hide. The OotS didn't have reason to suspect Malack was a vampire, so they didn't look for the clues. Here, they are. Durkon simply walking up and saying, "Ach, te Master Vampire died so I be not a vampire anymoor." isn't going to cut it.

You also haven't taken V into account. If he saw what went down, and no reason for him not to have, he would know that Durkon is still withdrawing funds from the blood bank.

No, I am going to be more than a little surprised if it goes down that road for more than a few panels.

Kish

2013-07-31, 05:00 PM

That didn't prevented Darth Varsuuvius from being accepted as normal in the Group.
It might have, if everyone had known Vaarsuvius had just made a deal with fiends and gotten Soul Spliced, and instead of trying to claim the change in her/his appearance was just a fashion change, s/he was trying to claim that her/her appearance not changing back was unrelated to the soul splice being ongoing.

They all know Durkon is a vampire. If he tries to claim he's not a vampire while his eyes are still red, it will strain plausibility if they just accept it. And if he's evil now, he'll need to be a lot of steps ahead of the rest of the Order to convincingly fake being able to function as well as both an aggressive battle priest and a healbot as he could when he didn't have to prepare his Cure spells--as well as his presumed inability to cast deity-specific or Good spells (Thor's Lightning, Holy Word, Holy Smite, a Summon Planar Ally that doesn't get a devil...).

The Pilgrim

2013-07-31, 05:07 PM

They have reason to suspect Durkon is a vampire. Lots of reasons. Not even the OotS can blow spot checks that badly. :smallwink:

Besides, you started this all off by saying, "Malack could disguise his vampire self, so why not Durkon?"

Well, all Malack did was raise his voice pitch and not vamp out his eyes. Aside from that it wasn't much of a hide. The OotS didn't have reason to suspect Malack was a vampire, so they didn't look for the clues. Here, they are. Durkon simply walking up and saying, "Ach, te Master Vampire died so I be not a vampire anymoor." isn't going to cut it.

This may be as good a time as any to mention that Vampire Clerics gain access to the Trickery domain, and that Disguise Self is a 1st Level Spell.

You also haven't taken V into account. If he saw what went down, and no reason for him not to have, he would know that Durkon is still withdrawing funds from the blood bank.

I don't think V saw anthing. We have no indication in comic that she did.

No, I am going to be more than a little surprised if it goes down that road for more than a few panels.

As far as Durkon could keep the ruse for a few days, they would make it to the Dwarven Homelands and fulfill the prophecy.

Anyway, I'm not pretending to say this is gonna happen. If this were still Dungeon Crawling Fools it would be worth a few jokes, but the comic is too serious now for that, I'm affraid.

Warren Dew

2013-07-31, 05:13 PM

Porthos

2013-07-31, 05:17 PM

This may be as good a time as any to mention that Vampire Clerics gain access to the Trickery domain, and that Disguise Self is a 1st Level Spell.

Too bad he hasn't had a chance to relearn spell, eh? :smallsmile:

I don't think V saw anthing. We have no indication in comic that she did.

What, you don't think Sabine would miss the chance to see her beau in action? :smalltongue:

Demolator

2013-07-31, 05:26 PM

This may be as good a time as any to mention that Vampire Clerics gain access to the Trickery domain, and that Disguise Self is a 1st Level Spell.

There's a whole magic domain JUST FOR TRICKERY?!

Kish

2013-07-31, 05:44 PM

There's a whole magic domain JUST FOR TRICKERY?!
What a weird reaction. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm)

David Argall

2013-07-31, 06:15 PM

Durkon makes peace with Nale [treachery either way likely about 200 pages later] They then attack party, which flees into rift. Tarquin rejoins LG, whch heads off to dwarven territory.

Evidence-Durkon and Nale look to have plot immunity. Durkon must be around to go to the dwarven lands. Nale is a recurring NPC who should be there until well into the last book. So both must survive any battle now, but they are in melee. Durkon could win a fight while Nale flees, but with Z to help, he seems a favorite to win. So there will be no fight.
We have seen the Snarl's world. We are just going to go off and ignore it? And once the party leaves the rift, there seems little chance to explore later. So they go in now, and we find we are mistaken about some details about Snarl and such.
Tarquin's "business" should be done at any time, and with his return, LG learns about the final gate, Durkon provides them clues about where and they have the motive to go North.

F.Harr

2013-07-31, 06:59 PM

In addition to my earlier prediction, I'm going to say that, as of tomorrow, Durkon learns that he's separated from his beloved Thor. And, as he casts around for a new God, he finds that Hel is the only one who'll help him.

Odin might, as he hung dead on a tree for a time to gain wisdom. But he figures he's too good for the undead.

snikrept

2013-07-31, 07:03 PM

Things might have changed now that he's a vampire, but previously one of Durkon's character traits was that he was unable to lie.

He might play along if they assume on their own that he's cured, but I doubt he'd seed that thought outright.

F.Harr

2013-07-31, 07:09 PM

"Seed that thought"???

I also suspect that they'll have to re-think his role in the group. Not that they'd kick him out, but he'll have access to different spells and thus have a different purpose.

Diadem

2013-07-31, 07:10 PM

F.Harr

2013-07-31, 07:12 PM

I still don't see why Durkon wouldn't be able to still follow Thor. Yes, I know that by the RAW vampires are always evil, but I highly doubt that will be followed in this comic. Alignment not being determined by an entry in the monster manual is one of the major themes of this comic, after all.

Vampires are free-willed undead. That means they must be able to have all alignments, or them being free-willed means nothing.

Durkon faces some interesting challenges when it comes to feeding. But there's no reason to think his character would have changed.

Nor is it clear that Thor would reject him just because he's undead. I'd like to think the gods are above such petty bigotry.

You make some excelent points. And you could be right. But, if I had to put my money down on red or black, I'm choosing black. If it turns up red, I'm just as happy, though.

Demolator

2013-07-31, 07:13 PM

What a weird reaction. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm)

Who invents these things?!

F.Harr

2013-07-31, 07:20 PM

Who invents these things?!

The spooooooookey designers on the coast.

Fish

2013-07-31, 08:01 PM

veti

2013-07-31, 10:27 PM

My money is on "Vampire Durkon doesn't worship Thor." I'm not sure whether he can, or can't, but I reckon he won't -- he may even choose not to. Why? Because it's more interesting. We have long known that Durkon has placed great faith in Thor, despite Thor's overall incompetence (masked debt gourd?). An evil Durkon might recognize this and turn away.

I don't think he'd even need to be Evil, to abandon Thor at this point. After all, he faithfully followed Thor, quite literally, to his own death. That's often considered pretty much the gold standard of loyalty.

(As foreshadowed, possibly, all the way back here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0039.html).)

Especially since it was, arguably, Thor's own indifference (allowing Malack to insert a backdoor into his follower's custom spell) that got him killed.

But assuming Durkon still wants to be LG, who else would he worship? Not Odin, I'm thinking - abandoning Thor just to latch on to his dad seems pointless.

So I'd guess: if he wants to remain LG, he'll become a cleric of a cause.

Geordnet

2013-08-01, 01:20 AM

I still don't see why Durkon wouldn't be able to still follow Thor. Yes, I know that by the RAW vampires are always evil, but I highly doubt that will be followed in this comic. Alignment not being determined by an entry in the monster manual is one of the major themes of this comic, after all.
No... Rich has been faily consistent with alignments and RAW. I haven't seen anything contrary to it at all so far, so I don't see why Rich would start now.

I think you're getting the wrong message: instead of "monsters are not necessarily Evil", it's "Evil doesn't always mean heartless bastard". In fact the only Evil character who could be called such is Xykon.

Which would actually make it more likely that Durkon is going to stay Evil, since it'll give Rich another chance to reiterate this point, by making Durkula both definitely Evil and definitely Durkon.

Porthos

2013-08-01, 02:55 AM

Getting back to what happens next, I just realized something. If Durkon decides to attack Nale, he could do worse than opening up with Dispel Magic (3rd level version).

Nale - Protection From Negative Energy Protection = a lot more vulnerable to a POed Vampire Cleric low on spells.

Plus, you know. symmetry. :smallsmile:

Of course, Z might have at least one more regular ol' Dispel Magic left as well though that does raise the question why Z didn't take out Durkon when he was running for the staff. I suppose they might want to wait and see just what happens with Durkon before wasting him.

And, no, this would not have been a good opening gambit for Malack since he didn't realize Nale was protected before it was too late.

sam79

2013-08-01, 05:17 AM

Evidence-Durkon and Nale look to have plot immunity. Durkon must be around to go to the dwarven lands. Nale is a recurring NPC who should be there until well into the last book. So both must survive any battle now, but they are in melee. Durkon could win a fight while Nale flees, but with Z to help, he seems a favorite to win. So there will be no fight.

I agree that Nale and Durkon both have plot immunity (for the short term at least), but I think that the conclusion that they will therefore make peace is unlikely. An inconclusive fight (perhaps with Z dying and Nale escaping) seems pretty likely, or perhaps Durkon ignoring the LG completely to go help his friends, allowing a near-dead Nale and a spell-depleted Z to escape. I'd call both of these scenarios infinately more likely than a truce between Nale and Durkon. They have zero reason to like or trust each other. More than that, Durkon has no reason to attack his old friends.

DeliaP

2013-08-01, 09:46 AM

No... Rich has been faily consistent with alignments and RAW. I haven't seen anything contrary to it at all so far, so I don't see why Rich would start now.

I think you're getting the wrong message: instead of "monsters are not necessarily Evil", it's "Evil doesn't always mean heartless bastard". In fact the only Evil character who could be called such is Xykon.

Which would actually make it more likely that Durkon is going to stay Evil, since it'll give Rich another chance to reiterate this point, by making Durkula both definitely Evil and definitely Durkon.

IMHO, if it's definitely Evil, it's definitely NOT Durkon! :smallwink:

Newwby

2013-08-01, 11:03 AM

:belkar: Hot damn! We keep overcoming plot obstacles at this pace, we'll be killing Xykon five strips from now! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html)

F.Harr

2013-08-01, 01:29 PM

So I'd guess: if he wants to remain LG, he'll become a cleric of a cause.

Ooh, I like that.

skim172

2013-08-01, 01:30 PM

David Argall

2013-08-01, 02:24 PM

I agree that Nale and Durkon both have plot immunity (for the short term at least), but I think that the conclusion that they will therefore make peace is unlikely. An inconclusive fight (perhaps with Z dying and Nale escaping) seems pretty likely, or perhaps Durkon ignoring the LG completely to go help his friends, allowing a near-dead Nale and a spell-depleted Z to escape. I'd call both of these scenarios infinately more likely than a truce between Nale and Durkon. They have zero reason to like or trust each other. More than that, Durkon has no reason to attack his old friends.
In one of the RAW comments about new vampires is the idea that new vampires will actively hate their old friends, who "deserted" the soon to be vampire when he really needed them. He also now has a default evil alignment, which makes it doubtful he was be friendly to his good friends. Comments on other creatures who might have been PCs at one point also say the transformation is deep, and former friends can not depend on the former friendship to still exist. So the party can't rely on Durkon being friendly.
Plot-wise, Durkon is going to cause havoc in the dwarven lands, which is not easy to do by himself and still keep it plot-centered. So he needs helpers in in causing death and destruction, a role the LG could fit very easily. But that is not a role they can fit if there is a fight now.
Also remember we need difficulties for the party and a hostile Durkon is the greater difficulty. [In fact a friendly Durkon might be highly useful for the party. One reason Vampires were not allowed in the game was that the players would actively try to become vampires, with all the cool powers.]

hamishspence

2013-08-01, 02:26 PM

I Plot-wise, Durkon is going to cause havoc in the dwarven lands, which is not easy to do by himself and still keep it plot-centered.

That- or havoc will follow him rather than be caused by him.

Grogmir

2013-08-01, 02:43 PM

I think Nale is in a lot of trouble and wouldn't be surprised to see him killed off in short order by the newly free and perhaps more ruthless Durkula.

I think D will save the order and (try) and accept his vamp status for the power boost it gives him in the short term dealing with Xykon and saving the world.

In comic time we know that X is already on his way and they need to move double quick to get there. Belkar is also on his last legs... IF Durkula doesn't have the spell (restoration?) prepared...they might decide that turning Belkar is the best way for a)D to feed and b)Belkar to come back into the fight. (But two characters turning Vamp? Not sure The Giant would do that)

As for V, Tarquin, Z, Sabine, Hayley, Her Dad and a whole load more... I really don't have an idea... So yeah. Most of the things I can see happening. I admit probably wont and for the rest I don't have a clue!

Colour me suspense!

sam79

2013-08-02, 08:47 AM

In one of the RAW comments about new vampires is the idea that new vampires will actively hate their old friends, who "deserted" the soon to be vampire when he really needed them. He also now has a default evil alignment, which makes it doubtful he was be friendly to his good friends.

But that doesn't really apply in Durkon's case, because he had the option of brining his friends to help him vs. Malack, and chose not to use it.

I will say though that I have read but little of the (many) RAW comments on Vampires, so will not be able to argue on the specifics. I would only add that this could be an area of RAW where our author would prefer to make his own rules.

Comments on other creatures who might have been PCs at one point also say the transformation is deep, and former friends can not depend on the former friendship to still exist. So the party can't rely on Durkon being friendly.

This I think is likely to be a source of drama/tension; the Order may not trust Durkon, even if he does want to rejoin them, and is genuinely not a threat to them. And I agree that if the transformation to Durkon was only at the level of his powers and abilities, rather than personality and priorities, it would be...well, a bit of an anti-climax.

Plot-wise, Durkon is going to cause havoc in the dwarven lands, which is not easy to do by himself and still keep it plot-centered. So he needs helpers in in causing death and destruction, a role the LG could fit very easily. But that is not a role they can fit if there is a fight now.

Your conclusion here is based on one very narrow interpretation of Durkon's prophesy. Even assuming it is genuine, he could bring some amount of death and destruction single-handed, or inadvertantly, or as a new religion, or many other things. I don't think it lends much weight to a Durkon/Linear Guild team-up assault on Dwarfdom, though that is of course a possibility.

Also remember we need difficulties for the party and a hostile Durkon is the greater difficulty. [In fact a friendly Durkon might be highly useful for the party. One reason Vampires were not allowed in the game was that the players would actively try to become vampires, with all the cool powers.]

Aren't they already in pretty severe peril? I'd argue that the odds are so stacked against the PCs right now (V missing, Belkar almost dead, Roy and Haley heavily damaged, about to be attacked by two demons as well as the Sand Elemental, LG waiting in the wings) that they needed a change of fortunes in order to (plausibly) get out of here intact. Durkon helping them out would accomplish that, as well as being a step to proving that even Evil and Vamped he can be relied on.

David Argall

2013-08-02, 01:20 PM

But that doesn't really apply in Durkon's case, because he had the option of brining his friends to help him vs. Malack, and chose not to use it.
Don't matter. They were not there when they were needed. The vampire uses this as an excuse, not a reason. That they were not actually guilty is a quibble. The new vampire is hungry and evil and his old reasons for sticking with his old friends are routinely not going to be valid. In fact he is likely to have active motives to do something they oppose. Durkon is strong odds to be no true friend of the party.

this could be an area of RAW where our author would prefer to make his own rules.
Quite possibly. But there is nothing here to say he will either.

This I think is likely to be a source of drama/tension; the Order may not trust Durkon, even if he does want to rejoin them, and is genuinely not a threat to them. And I agree that if the transformation to Durkon was only at the level of his powers and abilities, rather than personality and priorities, it would be...well, a bit of an anti-climax.

[QUOTE=sam79;15742687]
Your conclusion here is based on one very narrow interpretation of Durkon's prophesy.
That "death" and "destruction" means death and destruction is hardly a narrow reading. It is the obvious one [which is perhaps the main reason to even look at others. Our writer has a confessed desire to fool us, and there is a tradition of predictions only being technically correct.]

Even assuming it is genuine, he could bring some amount of death and destruction single-handed, or inadvertantly, or as a new religion, or many other things. I don't think it lends much weight to a Durkon/Linear Guild team-up assault on Dwarfdom, though that is of course a possibility.
More than a possibility. It is the probability [again unless we start with the assumption that the likely is not going to happen.]

Aren't they already in pretty severe peril? I'd argue that the odds are so stacked against the PCs right now (V missing, Belkar almost dead, Roy and Haley heavily damaged, about to be attacked by two demons as well as the Sand Elemental, LG waiting in the wings) that they needed a change of fortunes in order to (plausibly) get out of here intact. Durkon helping them out would accomplish that, as well as being a step to proving that even Evil and Vamped he can be relied on.
But they have what looks to be a plot-useful way to escape and recover. And giving them what looks to be an epic level helper seems like a quick way out of any other difficulties. The difficulties are much more difficult when he is not a pal. And this is only the 5th book. End such while the party is about to be tossed off a cliff is not a rare idea.

Angel Bob

2013-08-02, 01:36 PM

I think you're getting the wrong message: instead of "monsters are not necessarily Evil", it's "Evil doesn't always mean heartless bastard". In fact the only Evil character who could be called such is Xykon.

I think you're getting the wrong message (partially): Rich's point is that "usually ___ Evil" =/= "always ____ Evil". Such is the case of the goblins. It's those monsters who aren't necessarily Evil. However, unholy creatures such as undead and fiends are uniformly Evil.

As for the second theme -- a certain degree of heartlessness comes with the title of "Evil". However, one of Rich's themes is that Evil characters still have loved ones, important relationships... it's just that they have very few of them, and everyone who's not a close friend is expendable. (Some of them would even sacrifice as close friend!) All Evil characters we've seen are heartless bastards to some extent, but very few of them (only Xykon, really) are heartless bastards with regards to all other characters in the world.

Kish

2013-08-02, 02:36 PM

However, unholy creatures such as undead and fiends are uniformly Evil.
Except when they're paladins.

Taelas

2013-08-02, 03:11 PM

Except when they're paladins.

There have been no undead or fiendish paladins in the comic so far.

There have been "positive energy spirits", though.

hamishspence

2013-08-02, 03:15 PM

Except when they're paladins.

Indeed. I liked this bit of background on an undead paladin in 1st ed D&D:

Ralgorax, the Sword of Tyr (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15691929&postcount=58)

sam79

2013-08-02, 03:31 PM

Don't matter. They were not there when they were needed. The vampire uses this as an excuse, not a reason. That they were not actually guilty is a quibble. The new vampire is hungry and evil and his old reasons for sticking with his old friends are routinely not going to be valid. In fact he is likely to have active motives to do something they oppose. Durkon is strong odds to be no true friend of the party.

Fair enough. But from the latest strip, it looks like Durkon retains at least some of his old personality/memories etc.

Quite possibly. But there is nothing here to say he will either.

Apart from his general dislike of pegging certain creatures as Always Evil, I agree.

That "death" and "destruction" means death and destruction is hardly a narrow reading. It is the obvious one [which is perhaps the main reason to even look at others. Our writer has a confessed desire to fool us, and there is a tradition of predictions only being technically correct.]

Death and destruction caused by Durkon is the natural interpretion. Death and Destruction caused by Durkon allied to the Linear Guild is the proposition that I was attacking as thinly supported. Especially given 907 :smallwink:

More than a possibility. It is the probability [again unless we start with the assumption that the likely is not going to happen.]

I tend to agree that prophesy is played for real in OotSverse. But given how little we've seen of how this prophesy was delivered, I'd say it wasn;t a given.

But they have what looks to be a plot-useful way to escape and recover. And giving them what looks to be an epic level helper seems like a quick way out of any other difficulties. The difficulties are much more difficult when he is not a pal. And this is only the 5th book. End such while the party is about to be tossed off a cliff is not a rare idea.

I wouldn't rule out an escape to Riftword (I assume this is your plot useful way of escape?), but I'd expect Durkon to be in tow with his old friends, on the way to being re-intergrated into the Order.

Spoomeister

2013-08-02, 03:32 PM

Next we find out what Durkon does.

Whether he reverts to Lawful Good and rejoins the Order, or takes dreadful revenge on Nale for killing his master, or turns into an evil mastermind and sets out to take revenge on the dwarves of his homeland for rewarding his total loyalty with horrible exile, I'm looking forward to it. And I doubt Nale will like it.

But Durkon has always thought all along that he was on a mission at the behest of the dwarves, and not sent into exile. We the readers know it as exile as we saw some document or other that he didn't. I'm blanking on strip #s now or I'd link.

I don't think there's any reversion here. I think one possibility might be:

Nale and Z escape, as they are in no shape to take on a pissed off vampiric dwarven cleric.
Durkon wants to save his friends, so he helps defeat the elemental.
Durkon asks to join the Order, as they're his only friends now.
After much struggling, Roy doesn't see how it would work.
Durkon calls them out for being hypocrites, seeing as they've bent over backwards to carry Belkar.
Durkon makes the leap that now that he's evil himself there IS something he could do to help the Order, and kills Belkar. (Likely with Belkar noting at the very end that while Durkon needed to change who he was to do what he's always wanted to do, Belkar is the one person in the party who's always just been himself.)
The rest are horrified, and know they can't defeat Durkon in their state, but can't let him continue with them either.
Profoundly disappointed and infuriated, Durkon is only held off from slaying the rest of the Order by an observation from Elan that killing the rest of them really would make Durkon a bad guy now.
Durkon figures out that he only has so many Protection from Daylight charges left, so he might as well go back to the dwarven lands, where he can figure out vengeance v. coexistence in a nice dark mine somewhere.
V's time with the IFCC is up and V is returned under some rubble, to reunite with the others. (Possibly with V's familiar fatally crushed / sealed under a bunch of pyramid.) The Order of The Stick is now Roy, Haley, Elan and V, contemplating their next move now that Team Evil has a head start on the final gate.

Fish

2013-08-02, 03:53 PM

I wouldn't rule out an escape to Riftword (I assume this is your plot useful way of escape?), but I'd expect Durkon to be in tow with his old friends, on the way to being re-intergrated into the Order.
You couldn't have both, if vampires cannot cross open water. Does an ocean count as "running water?" I wouldn't risk it, if I were Durkon.

sam79

2013-08-02, 04:06 PM

You couldn't have both, if vampires cannot cross open water. Does an ocean count as "running water?" I wouldn't risk it, if I were Durkon.

Good point. I suppose an ocean is running water? Was there some beach they could get to though?

martianmister

2013-08-02, 06:01 PM

Except when they're paladins.

We have no reason to believe they're not evil. HAR HAR HAR

Warren Dew

2013-08-02, 06:33 PM

As much as I like Durkon, I think it'd be pretty anticlimactic if the solution to "OMG, Durkon is a vampire and evil" was as simple as "Oh wait, he's not evil, he's just a cool vampire, and now he just comes back - problem solved."
And yet, it happens so often as to have become a cliche.

veti

2013-08-03, 08:39 AM

I think you're getting the wrong message (partially): Rich's point is that "usually ___ Evil" =/= "always ____ Evil". Such is the case of the goblins. It's those monsters who aren't necessarily Evil. However, unholy creatures such as undead and fiends are uniformly Evil.

I'm not so sure about that. It's a logical absurdity for someone to be "always evil" if they're free-willed, because free will implies the possibility of change/redemption. If vampires are always evil, then one of two things must be true: (a) they're not really free-willed, or (b) there is some mechanism that prevents non-evil vampires from existing, e.g. by vaporising them the moment they change alignment.

(a) makes the whole thing kinda pointless - no freedom, no drama. (b) seems marginally more interesting, but it would require a whole heap of cosmological setup/backstory to make a worthwhile story out of it, and I've seen no sign of that.

Another possibility is (c): that vampires are evil because they're animated by negative energy, therefore they trigger 'Detect' and 'Protect' effects, but this has nothing to do with their behaviour. They could spend a thousand years acting like saintly paladins, and they'd still be evil as far as the rules are concerned, because "evil" really is no more meaningful than a team colour. But since (if I understand correctly) Rich quite likes the alignment system and lampooning it wholesale is no part of his agenda, I don't see him going this way.

Then there's (d), that vampires can only exist by performing evil acts, and those who refuse to do so tend to die quickly. Which implies that they can be good, just not for long. The only argument I can see against this is that it's been done to death by other authors. But that assumes Rich can't take an old trope, put his own gloss on and make it shiny and fresh - which is something he's done repeatedly.

And finally, (e): the possibility (which I currently rate quite likely) that the strip won't address these questions directly at all, but will give us some plausible rationale by which Durkon - personally, and without generalising to the whole of vampirekind - actually decides to be evil. For instance, if he decides he's fed up with being dumped on by Thor and now he's going to do his own thing. Personally I'd find that very disappointing, but maybe Rich could sell it to me.

At the moment, I think it's a toss-up between (d) and (e) - and if it's the latter, I hope there's some better rationalisation than I suggest above.

GreatWyrmGold

2013-08-03, 08:52 AM

Or (f): Vampires are influenced by their creators, who are Evil. Thus, they start out more Evil, even assuming that the vampires in question don't convert more formerly Evil mortals. After this, a combination of seeing oneself as a monster, feeding on blood, and perhaps the psychological or spiritual consequences of being powered by Negative Energy rather than Positive keeps the Evil present. At this point, change is too hard to bother with; you're damned already, and need to kill to survive, so why bother?

Anatares

2013-08-03, 09:27 AM

Well, I'm glad my 'Durkon lays the smackdown on Zz'dtri and Nale' prediction came true :smalltongue: But it seems there's a lot of focus on this thread whether Durkon is evil or good. Here's my take on it.

Alignment-wise and on his character sheet, Durkon is evil. There's pretty much no refuting that. He's a vampire and vampires are evil. His actions however don't necessarily have to sink him to pre-reformed Belkar's level. Laying a Bruce Lee smackdown on Nale and his pet wizard is neither evil nor good. These guys are jerks and vamped or not Durkon would know that and still want to knock their teeth in. Roy would do it, Vaarsuvius would do it, and Belkar would do it (Though perhaps with a little more gusto than anyone would like to witness :smalleek:).

His next actions will be more in line with his core personality - And still not necessarily good nor evil. I'd bet 10gp that he goes to help his former party with the elemental. You could argue that that would be a good-aligned action to take, but it'd be more lawful for his loyalty to his friend Roy I think. And it's not like evil characters are incapable of good actions anyway - Recall Belkar beheading the assassin that was about to kill Hinjo in the battle of Azure City. Belkar has also come to Haley's rescue shortly after his Mark of Justice was removed/resolved on the grounds that he got to kill a lot of people indiscriminately.

Remember guys, this story is about characters growing beyond what's written on their character sheet :smallwink:

Jekub

2013-08-03, 11:27 AM

My Prediction:

Nale escapes with dimension door. Durkon Charms Z. With the two fiends
in their side, the order defeats the elemental easily. And Z can teleport them
to the next gate.

......

Yeah i don't think so. Too convenient. But the order need some way to reach
the fifth gate quick, and Z is the only mage that an teleport them.

SavageWombat

2013-08-03, 11:29 AM

People keep mentioning "Durkon charms Z" without considering his (a) good Will save (b) elven resistance to charms (c) magic resistance.

Z being largely magic-proof is almost his primary schtick.

F.Harr

2013-08-03, 11:40 AM

Well, the first part of my prediction was that the LG retreats, probably under the onslaught of Durkula. I'm giddy with anticipation to see if I was right.

Geordnet

2013-08-03, 12:57 PM

Spoiler'd for off-tangent discussion:

I'm not so sure about that. It's a logical absurdity for someone to be "always evil" if they're free-willed, because free will implies the possibility of change/redemption. [...]

(a) makes the whole thing kinda pointless - no freedom, no drama.
Here's where I think you're making a mistake, by assuming an inability to change alignment means a lack of free will, or ability to change at all. As a counter-example, take a look at Belkar: despite all his reforms he still enjoys murder as a form of recreation. Nothing's going to change that any time soon, landing him squarely in the Evil bracket for the entire foreseeable future. Yet despite this, he has still been able to change as a person, and even start to care for others on a personal level. Despite the fact that he still is, and likely forever will be, Evil with a capitol 'E'.

Secondly, free will doesn't actually say anything about having a conscience. There are lots of inhibitions embedded in the human psyche which provide the 'moral compass' that supplies reasons to not do evil things. Without this, you get a psychopath like Belkar, Xykon, or Tarquin, for whom killing is like taking a trip down to the grocery store: the only question is if it's worth their time, not whether it's right or wrong. Now imagine, instead of just removing this conscience, replace it with an "anti-conscience" of sorts, or a "moral compass which points south."

At this point the only thing keeping one from descending to the level of a ravenous animal is one's free will, constantly fighting the urge to slaughter the innocent. Sort of like how you could will yourself not to binge on your favorite dessert (and I mean your favorite) even when you're in a store full of it and you're craving it badly and you've got the money to buy as much as you want –only, in this case that dessert is human blood and that craving will never go away, but can and will keep growing until you give in. You know how hard a time some humans have with drugs and alcohol? Well, for vampires blood is like the perfect drug. Think Spice Melange, but with the withdrawal symptoms pumped up to eleven -compounded by a lack of any sort of maximum level of pain where any more would result in death.

Oh, and lastly: redemption doesn't actually have to be possible for anyone, depending on the author. In fact universal redemption is a fairly recent concept, as far as I'm aware not even existing as a theological concept until about two thousand years ago, when it was preached by a certain radicalist Rabbi... I've been told, for instance, (although I admit this is secondhand information) that an absence of forgiveness is one of the hallmarks of classic Greek Tragedy.

Although I don't think Rich intends to incorporate this concept, (quite the opposite, in fact) sometimes these things get implied unintentionally. Either way, it's something to think about.

Anyways, back to the main topic:

I realized that I forgot to post my own speculation on this thread! :smalltongue:

So, I think that what we're going to see for the next couple of strips is Durkon fighting the LG, and Nale/Z bugging out. (~2±1 strips)
Durkon moves to help the Order against the Si elemental. We'll get to see his new theological status when he tries to use <X>'s Might. (~2±1 strips)

Two ways this could split from here:

Durkon succeeds in saving the Order.

Battle takes 3±2 strips, ending with the Order sitting in the desert for a while.

(V might get released and unearthed during the lull.)

Tarquin shows up with the surprise he prepared before he left the city, and left to get. (I'm guessing his army.)
Tarquin may be miffed that Malack is dead, (then again, maybe not) but he knows to let the heroes get their escape. (He might even help them himself!)

Tarquin shows up in the middle of the battle, with a 'surprise'.

Tarquin's aid dispatches the Si elemental.
The Order escapes from Tarquin (or he lets them go, or even helps them).

Whatever the case, the chapter should wrap up in about a dozen to two dozen strips.
Last scene before the book closes will probably be something wistful. Maybe the order flying across the desert on their carpet.

Next book will pick up after a time skip most likely, after the Order makes it back to the Northern Continent.

Fish

2013-08-03, 01:14 PM

People keep mentioning "Durkon charms Z" without considering his (a) good Will save (b) elven resistance to charms (c) magic resistance.
No, actually I haven't forgotten that. Z doesn't get spell resistance against Durkon's domination gaze, as it is a Supernatural effect. Z would only get his +2 racial bonus.

Supernatural Abilities (Su)

Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic.

SavageWombat

2013-08-03, 01:51 PM

No, actually I haven't forgotten that. Z doesn't get spell resistance against Durkon's domination gaze, as it is a Supernatural effect. Z would only get his +2 racial bonus.

Perhaps, but we're still talking Z's Will save bonus of (by my guess) +11 at minimum, against Durkon's DC of 17 at maximum - and probably less, since I think we've established he had a CHA penalty originally.

LordVader

2013-08-03, 01:55 PM

I still don't see why Durkon wouldn't be able to still follow Thor. Yes, I know that by the RAW vampires are always evil, but I highly doubt that will be followed in this comic. Alignment not being determined by an entry in the monster manual is one of the major themes of this comic, after all.

Vampires are free-willed undead. That means they must be able to have all alignments, or them being free-willed means nothing.

Durkon faces some interesting challenges when it comes to feeding. But there's no reason to think his character would have changed.

Nor is it clear that Thor would reject him just because he's undead. I'd like to think the gods are above such petty bigotry.

There would be no reason to make Durkon a vampire if he simply reverts to being Lawful Good upon regaining his free will. Ergo, Durkon will most likely not remain Lawful Good, as Rich has made him into a vampire for some narrative purpose.

I'm expecting Durkon to continue adventuring with the Order; he may be evil, but hey, so are Belkar and Tarquin, and the Order gets on passably with them for the most part.

Taelas

2013-08-03, 02:36 PM

Perhaps, but we're still talking Z's Will save bonus of (by my guess) +11 at minimum, against Durkon's DC of 17 at maximum - and probably less, since I think we've established he had a CHA penalty originally.

That was before he got a +4 racial bonus to Cha for becoming a vampire.

SavageWombat

2013-08-03, 02:39 PM

That was before he got a +4 racial bonus to Cha for becoming a vampire.

No, I included that. The DC is 15 + 2 for a 14 Cha at max - and I think it's lower. A Charisma penalty was mentioned at some point. He is a dwarf, after all.

Taelas

2013-08-03, 02:44 PM

No, I included that. The DC is 15 + 2 for a 14 Cha at max - and I think it's lower. A Charisma penalty was mentioned at some point. He is a dwarf, after all.

The save DC is 10 + (½ HD) + Cha bonus.

Porthos

2013-08-03, 02:48 PM

There would be no reason to make Durkon a vampire if he simply reverts to being Lawful Good upon regaining his free will.

It's the 'simply' that I keep seeing people state that I have a problem with.

What if he remains Lawful Good but struggles mightly against the temptations and forces within him that are trying to make him Lawful Evil?

Just why is it that people think if he rejoins the Order/and or tries to be Good that it'll be a cakewalk for all concerned? That there is no possibility for character devlopment here?

Or, possibly, maybe he is Evil through no fault of his own and Roy/Elan/Haley will try to get him to become Good again. Might work, might not.

Or maybe he's slid down to Neutral now that he is free-willed again (being Evil while Thralled) and can go one way or the other.

Frankly, the more I think about it, I think 'simply' isn't on the cards no matter which way this goes. :smallwink:

skim172

2013-08-03, 03:01 PM

Without understanding exactly how vampirism works in this specific universe, we can't make any simple judgments on how Durkon thinks or what he'll do.

SavageWombat

2013-08-03, 03:46 PM

The save DC is 10 + (½ HD) + Cha bonus.

It's based on a spell effect, not HD.

hamishspence

2013-08-03, 04:02 PM

Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is:

10 + ½ the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma).

Dominate (Su)
A vampire can crush an opponent’s will just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the vampire must use a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Anyone the vampire targets must succeed on a Will save or fall instantly under the vampire’s influence as though by a dominate person spell (caster level 12th). The ability has a range of 30 feet.

So- regardless of the vampire's hit dice, the caster level of the effect, is 12th.

SavageWombat

2013-08-03, 04:14 PM

So- regardless of the vampire's hit dice, the caster level of the effect, is 12th.

Yes, but caster level doesn't effect DCs of spells. V's fireball has a caster level of 15 or so, but the DC is still 13+INT.

What I'm remembering is a rule somewhere that said that the DC of an ability that is described as identical to a spell is based on the level of that spell. So since dominate person is 5th level, the DC would be 15+CHA.

Assuming that I am incorrect in this point, then the aforementioned HD rule comes into play. (Which doesn't fit with other monster abilities combined with class levels, but not relevant here.) This would put the DC at 17+CHA, or at most 19. Better, but still not a huge threshold for Z's +11 or higher Will save.

Taelas

2013-08-03, 05:28 PM

What I'm remembering is a rule somewhere that said that the DC of an ability that is described as identical to a spell is based on the level of that spell. So since dominate person is 5th level, the DC would be 15+CHA.

You're thinking of spell-like abilities, not supernatural. Dominate is a Su ability, not Sp.

Ellye

2013-08-03, 09:11 PM

I have trouble, from a storytelling standpoint, picturing Vampire Durkon and Belkar in the party at the same time.

Durkon dying in place of him seems to have really triggered a few emotions for Belkar. I can't imagine they ever interacting again, but if they do, it should probably be Belkar's final moment or else it might lose some of the dramatic power.

Or, much, much, more likely, I might be completely wrong. Rich is a much better storyteller than I can pretend to be.

Jay R

2013-08-03, 10:40 PM

Without understanding exactly how vampirism works in this specific universe, we can't make any simple judgments on how Durkon thinks or what he'll do.

Well, they don't sparkle in the sunlight, so that's a good sign.

genderlich

2013-08-04, 01:35 AM

My Prediction:

Nale escapes with dimension door.

I'll stop you right there. That's a spell with "Long" range - 400 feet plus 40 feet per level. For an 8th-level caster as Nale appears to be, DD has a maximum range of 720 feet. That's not much of an escape in open desert. If this is not to be the Linear Guild's last stand, I think Z will have to teleport them out. Unfortunately, he's used one already (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html)...

prism6691

2013-08-04, 02:15 AM

I like the idea of Durkon becoming the first cleric of Hel. The argument can be made that it was foreshadowed when Durkon commented when he was having *tea* with Malack about how no one really worships her.

Bulldog Psion

2013-08-04, 05:05 AM

Silverionmox

2013-08-04, 08:12 AM

I don't think Durkon is going to happily embrace Nergal, he's just been killed and vampirized by one of his worshippers. I don't understand why some people still think he would have any sympathy for Malack left. They tried to kill each other, and they weren't kidding, last time they met.

Durkon's alignment can be summed up as "lawful complicated" for the time being.

Kish

2013-08-04, 08:17 AM

On the other hand, Nergal is likely to accept the worship of Durkon. Isn't Durkon, with his entire world-view uprooted by his transformation into an undead abomination, likely to want acceptance somewhere?
I think nearly all Lawful or Neutral Evil deities would be eager to accept Durkon's worship. He's one of the most powerful clerics in the world at this point, and entirely too loyal for his own good.

EyethatBinds

2013-08-04, 08:36 AM

At first I thought V would've shocked everyone by casting limited wish once they staked Durkon. Then I remembered an important bit of the spell, you cannot cast 5th level spells from a prohibited school. And V has foolishly banned Conjuration, making him possibly the stupidest wizard in existence.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm

Maybe Belkar's good deed of helping the cleric of Loki will come back to aid them once again?

Geordnet

2013-08-04, 10:33 AM

What if he remains Lawful Good but struggles mightly against the temptations and forces within him that are trying to make him Lawful Evil?
Question: if one has to constantly restrain oneself against slaughtering the innocent, and even then murder is necessary for survival, since one's body is literally fueled by unholy magic, what is one's most probable alignment?

Without understanding exactly how vampirism works in this specific universe, we can't make any simple judgments on how Durkon thinks or what he'll do.
Yes we can. We can make guesses on how vampirism works in this universe based on how it works in popular culture and (more significantly) by SRD, and how Rich has adapted other things into his comic.

SRD says "vampires are evil", and Rich almost always follows the SRD unless he has a reason not to. But he wouldn't have made Durkon a vampire unless a good reason why he should be changed, towards the dark end of the spectrum. Therefore, we can conclude that Durkon probably is Evil now.

At first I thought V would've shocked everyone by casting limited wish once they staked Durkon. Then I remembered an important bit of the spell, you cannot cast 5th level spells from a prohibited school. And V has foolishly banned Conjuration, making him possibly the stupidest wizard in existence.
Hey, it it's hardly his/her fault that the universal laws of magic had been revised since the time he/she chose that! :vaarsuvius:

But honestly, if you're looking at Raise Dead, I doubt it'd work. Malack dusted when he re-died, so Durkon probably will too. You need a corpse for Raise Dead.

Taelas

2013-08-04, 11:03 AM

Malack burned to death, though. That tends to leave ashes more than corporeal remains -- and the vampire entry even mentions how you are "utterly destroyed" from sunlight exposure.

F.Harr

2013-08-04, 12:18 PM

Taelas

2013-08-04, 12:37 PM

I want to amend my prediction. Durkula's conflict won't be only his struggle with his own urges, but with how others treat him. He's a monster animated by dark magic, now, so others won't know if they can trust him. I expect it to come up when he raises Haley. I predicted that Haley was going to die and that Durkon would use his raise dead scroll to get her back and so it wouldn't be available to raise him.

What scroll? If you are referring to the scroll mentioned here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html), they were referring to a scroll of sending (one which Durkon left behind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0834.html) while he retrieved V from the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing).

F.Harr

2013-08-04, 12:45 PM

What scroll? If you are referring to the scroll mentioned here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html), they were referring to a scroll of sending (one which Durkon left behind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0834.html) while he retrieved V from the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing).

Yes. The point being, to relieve Durkula of any means of resurection or raising so that he can't simply be killed and reinstated as a normal dwarf albeit with an interesting time in his life.

Porthos

2013-08-04, 01:12 PM

I want to amend my prediction. Durkula's conflict won't be only his struggle with his own urges, but with how others treat him.

You mean like how everyone will presume he's evil, treat him differently, and then he could get resentful over that and act accordingly.

Could see it. :smallwink:

Question: if one has to constantly restrain oneself against slaughtering the innocent, and even then murder is necessary for survival, since one's body is literally fueled by unholy magic, what is one's most probable alignment?

Not Lawful Evil for one. :smallsmile: Especially if one isn't constantly slaughtering the innocent and murdering people left and right,

Reddish Mage

2013-08-04, 03:51 PM

Without understanding exactly how vampirism works in this specific universe, we can't make any simple judgments on how Durkon thinks or what he'll do.

I tend to think of the way the vampires are described in the Monster Manual as being the D&D vampire. After all, if goblins were tiny magical artisans with neutral tendencies, that would be consistent with other depictions, but we wouldn't recognize them as D&D goblins.

Specifically here that includes Durkon being evil from the start.

As for Predictions:

I Predict! that there will be an interruption in short order by Tarquin and/or V. Before everything gets sorted out

Giggling Ghast

2013-08-04, 04:10 PM

I don't think Z can teleport them to the next Gate, as it needs to be a location he's somewhat familiar with. He could get them to Bleedingham, though.

martianmister

2013-08-04, 06:57 PM

What Next?

Werewolves? :smalltongue:

Geordnet

2013-08-05, 11:52 PM

Not Lawful Evil for one. :smallsmile: Especially if one isn't constantly slaughtering the innocent and murdering people left and right,
No? :smallconfused:

And we know at least he still has to suck the life force of the living to survive. That alone might be enough to qualify for "evil" alignment (for the purposes of spell effects, etc.) if nothing else.

Also, there's some disturbing new evidence... :smalleek:

So, I think that what we're going to see for the next couple of strips is Durkon fighting the LG, and Nale/Z bugging out. (~2±1 strips)
Durkon moves to help the Order against the Si elemental.

Check. :smallsmile:

Any updated predictions in light of the latest comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html)?

recluso

2013-08-06, 03:52 AM

I think Durkula sees vampirism as something usefull.
"Get a free vampire wizard outta this"

Now we have an almost useless Belkar present.

I think Durkula might first improve Belkar with a vampire template.
Just a little draining will suffice.
The staff will aid in rapid vamping and will protect Belkarula from the sun (well, maybe wait till dusk until speeding up the vamping)

If Belkar / Haley / Elan complain Durkula can simply dominate them. That was likely foreshadowed for a reason...

Roy is another case.

I feel a major conflict rising in OOTS ...

EDIT:
Roy-as-vampire has been foreshadowed as well...

What about Durkula overdoing it and vamping the whole Order?

Rich's solution of V's way to high power was to overdo it and make it fail almost immediately.

Now is there some way the OOTS could recover from full vampization and necessary subsequent total-party-kill?
For instance, would the Dwarves feel bad about banishing Durkon and resurrect him, after destroying his vampire form?

Spoomeister

2013-08-06, 08:54 AM

I'll stop you right there. That's a spell with "Long" range - 400 feet plus 40 feet per level. For an 8th-level caster as Nale appears to be, DD has a maximum range of 720 feet. That's not much of an escape in open desert. If this is not to be the Linear Guild's last stand, I think Z will have to teleport them out. Unfortunately, he's used one already (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html)...

Well, as of #908, seems like 720 feet away was better than 7 feet away, when it comes to a having a bloodthirsty and capable vampire cleric with vengeance on his mind right in front of him...

SavageWombat

2013-08-06, 09:43 AM

Well, Durkon does have some ranks in KN: Religion. Maybe he's read the monster entry in the SRD and said - "well, it doesn't say anything about needing to drink blood to survive - maybe the sunlight things the only real downside, and I've got the staff."

Except with an accent.

F.Harr

2013-08-06, 12:01 PM

Well, as of #908, seems like 720 feet away was better than 7 feet away, when it comes to a having a bloodthirsty and capable vampire cleric with vengeance on his mind right in front of him...

Oh, yeah.

The LG will scram. Possibly under the onslaught of Durkula and his critter (who first kills the other critter). . .

Well, I'm 50% right so far.

genderlich

2013-08-06, 02:30 PM

Well, as of #908, seems like 720 feet away was better than 7 feet away, when it comes to a having a bloodthirsty and capable vampire cleric with vengeance on his mind right in front of him...

Sure, if there's a hostile vampire dwarf bearing down on you at that moment it's a good choice. I'm still left wondering where he went and if/how he's going to ultimately escape. I don't see him dying, but unless Tarquin comes back right now Nale's only path back to Bleedingham is for the Order to capture him.

Ghosty

2013-08-06, 04:38 PM

Sure, if there's a hostile vampire dwarf bearing down on you at that moment it's a good choice. I'm still left wondering where he went and if/how he's going to ultimately escape. I don't see him dying, but unless Tarquin comes back right now Nale's only path back to Bleedingham is for the Order to capture him.

Or, he turns invisible, and waits 22 or so hours for Sabine to get back. Then he hitches a ride with her to wherever. Doubt he's going to go back to Tarquin:
"Hey Dad! I killed the party healer and your friend of 35 years. I got my 15th level wizard killed, and I handed your other son's group a 14-15th level vampire cleric. How'd I do?"

Edit: "Oh, and I let the Gate get blown up. We're good, right?"

EyethatBinds

2013-08-06, 04:59 PM

The question is, can Tarquin still pull a win out of these turns of events?

B. Dandelion

2013-08-06, 09:45 PM

sam79

2013-08-07, 10:51 AM

Looks like somebody earned a cookie. Good call.

Thanks:smallwink:

I should probably retire from the world of predictions now that I've actually got something right, but I think it fairly safe to bet that Durkon will help the ORder beat the Sand Elemental. It also seems to me that he will be the only OotS vampire. His dying wish was that Malack spare his friends, so I don't see him killing them all just to vamp them. It would also make his own change less dramatically relevant.

Not really sure about how this would work in D+D rules, but could Vamp Durkon have a spell up his sleeve to restore Belkar's drained stats and levels?

I don't really see how Tarquin could pull a win out of this situation; His team has just lost its wizard and two clerics in the space of two strips, along with its fighter-sorcerer-rogue. I'm sure he's got a way to not lose, though.

Fish

2013-08-07, 12:32 PM

Yes: a fat red dragon doing a Death Star impression, and Tarquin on his PTIE fighter. Swooping through Windy Canyon.

Jay R

2013-08-07, 09:26 PM

The question is, can Tarquin still pull a win out of these turns of events?

He just did. The carnage is now leaving his empire to destroy people and buildings elsewhere, doing no damage except to a pyramid of people who weren't paying taxes to him anyway.

Obscure Blade

2013-08-08, 05:17 AM

Not really sure about how this would work in D+D rules, but could Vamp Durkon have a spell up his sleeve to restore Belkar's drained stats and levels?

As a cleric he can use the Restoration spell, but I assume he'll have to meditate* for it first.

*As a non-theistic cleric powered by negative energy I'm not sure that "praying for spells" is the right way to describe it anymore.

He just did. The carnage is now leaving his empire to destroy people and buildings elsewhere, doing no damage except to a pyramid of people who weren't paying taxes to him anyway.He lost Malack in the process however. And the destruction of the Gate is one more step towards the possible destruction of the world, which he doesn't want.

F.Harr

2013-08-08, 12:37 PM

He just did. The carnage is now leaving his empire to destroy people and buildings elsewhere, doing no damage except to a pyramid of people who weren't paying taxes to him anyway.

He lost Malack in the process however. And the destruction of the Gate is one more step towards the possible destruction of the world, which he doesn't want.

I'm not sure who I agree with here. On the one hand, getting this show out of his theater has got to be good. On the other, he now has personel problems and, well, the world might actually end.

Jay R

2013-08-08, 01:37 PM

I'm not sure who I agree with here. On the one hand, getting this show out of his theater has got to be good. On the other, he now has personel problems and, well, the world might actually end.

That plot is still open; the heroes are still after the last gate. Tarquin is genre-savvy enough to know that they will in fact succeed in saving the world, so his plan remains the same as it was: "In any race for hidden treasure, it is always the protagonists who sweat and bleed and die to overcome the many challenges inherent in finding it - only for the antagonists to seize it from them at the last minute. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html)"

The only two changes are:
1. No more carnage can affect his empire, and
2. Malack is gone, a contingency for which I assume Tarquin prepared for decades ago. He always has a backup plan.

So does he have personnel problems, or does he have fewer rivals to share power with?

For that matter, was leaving Malack and Nale together a step in his plan for removing Malack?

Predicting that Tarquin has been taken by surprise, before all the facts are in, is a dangerous proposition.

Dunh dunh DUNH!

Taelas

2013-08-08, 02:51 PM

That plot is still open; the heroes are still after the last gate. Tarquin is genre-savvy enough to know that they will in fact succeed in saving the world, so his plan remains the same as it was: "In any race for hidden treasure, it is always the protagonists who sweat and bleed and die to overcome the many challenges inherent in finding it - only for the antagonists to seize it from them at the last minute. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html)"

The only two changes are:
1. No more carnage can affect his empire, and
2. Malack is gone, a contingency for which I assume Tarquin prepared for decades ago. He always has a backup plan.

So does he have personnel problems, or does he have fewer rivals to share power with?

For that matter, was leaving Malack and Nale together a step in his plan for removing Malack?

Predicting that Tarquin has been taken by surprise, before all the facts are in, is a dangerous proposition.

Dunh dunh DUNH!

Assuming that he is perfectly prepared for everything is far more dangerous. :smalltongue:

Geordnet

2013-08-08, 07:23 PM

So... Back on topic.

That's two for two, for me. In light of this page's last panel, I think we're in for some discussion of alignments now, both Durkon's and Belkar's. This may take a few pages, but I think that it'll mostly be confined to one strip: either the next strip or the one after that will contain some sort of interruption, probably from V or Tarquin. Either that, or Belkar dies. :smalltongue:

David Argall

2013-08-09, 12:32 AM

So does he have personnel problems, or does he have fewer rivals to share power with?

For that matter, was leaving Malack and Nale together a step in his plan for removing Malack?

Tarquin's plan depends on nobody realizing how powerful he is. Enemies of the ruler don't target Tarquin, they join Tarquin in toppling his stooge of the moment and cheer his new stooge. But for this plan to work well, he needs a Malack, so they both look like mere underlings. Without such an assistant, Tarquin becomes too well known, and a target. A sneaky king would get rid of a solitary Tarquin as too dangerous. But he would view a Tarquin-Malack team as useful underlings he can play against each other, not realizing he was the one being played.
So Tarquin is very sorry to lose Malack. [Not sorry enough to not give Nale a clear path to kill him. Kin do come first after all. But he would have liked to have Malack unlive longer.] Of course, he may be thinking of Nale or Elan as taking over for the missing priest, but neither seem really suited. He likely has some other candidates, but they too may well lack.