Thematical build questions II: the non-spellcaster Mage Slayer

[T.G. Oskar]

As I mentioned on the earlier thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=293250), I have another build I'm working on, which is also thematic. Namely, a character that can hold its own against spellcasters without using arcane or divine magic, though other methods are available (those being Incarnum and soul binding, and maybe even maneuvers).

The build is very bare-bones, and only about 5-10 levels are compromised. The race is also compromised, so don't ask to change it: despite being a wild assumption, I'll go with the idea that LA buy-off is possible for this one. The build would go like this:

Karsite Ranger 5 (using Arcane Hunter ACF)/Occult Slayer 5 (these last levels are obligatory)

Stats: Unsure as of yet, but it should have decent Cha for the karsite's magic-draining ability
Feats: Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protection, Pierce Magical Concealment
Other options: For the missing levels, I was thinking maybe adding some Totemist or Incarnate to take advantage of the Karsite bonuses to Constitution and Charisma. Note that Karsites count as humans for EVERY purpose, but their inability to use magic pretty much shuts down Chameleon (they still get the free feat and free skill points). Also, because of the inability to use spells, if sticking with Ranger, I'd have to take Champion of the Wild for the free feat.

As you can see, it's pretty bare-bones, so any help would be useful. I'd like to refrain a bit from psionics, especially if psionics-magic transparency applies to the Mage Slayer line. Note that mysteries are also a no-go, as the first mysteries are cast as arcane spells, and thus it would only allow the use of fundamentals and low-level mysteries as SLAs (an interesting proposal, tho); utterances could be used, but they'd be kinda weak. Thus, try to be reasonable with the other choices.

[avr]

If you're going to have a decent CHA, maybe a couple of levels of paladin are in order?

BTW, I don't think compromised means what you think it does.

[Gavinfoxx]

You're going to need something like this, seriously...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291744

If you want to actually not be a spellcaster who effectively hunts spellcasters...

[T.G. Oskar]

If you're going to have a decent CHA, maybe a couple of levels of paladin are in order?

BTW, I don't think compromised means what you think it does.

Might chalk it up to differences in language. It's actually what I think it means...but in Spanish.

That said: Paladin is not the only way to get Divine Grace, and the amount of levels I'll have won't justify the 2-level dip and the forced alignment (what if I want a neutral alignment in one of the axis, or both?). Even if it's a campaign-specific option, the Eldeen Ranger grants Divine Grace as part of the Greensinger sect options, as an example that can be used instead of Paladin. Since it's meant to be a build against spellcasters, Hexblade is a decent dip option as well.


You're going to need something like this, seriously...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291744

If you want to actually not be a spellcaster who effectively hunts spellcasters...

Erm...the idea is to make an optimized build without using homebrew. I don't want to sound demeaning to the 'brewer or anything, but...I could do something that rivals said class (or beats it) on 10 levels, if homebrew was fair game. Also, note that while it can't be a spellcaster, it *doesn't* have to drop other options; I mentioned Incarnum and soul binding, for example, as they've got classes that are meant to face spellcasters to some extent (Witchborn Binders for Incarnum and Witch Slayer for Pact Magic).

[gorfnab]

Here is a Witch Slayer/Occult Slayer build I came up with a while ago. It can be an okay "Mage Slayer".


1. Ranger - B: Track, Weapon Focus: Guisarme, Arcane Hunter ACF
2. Barbarian - Spirit Totem: Lion ACF, Whirling Frenzy ACF, {Optional: City Brawler ACF (Drg#349)}
3. Barbarian - Nemisis: Arcanists, Wolf Totem ACF
4. Warblade
5. Warblade
6. Warblade - Mage Slayer
7. Warblade
8. Warblade - B: Improved Initiative
9. Crusader - Blindfight
10. Crusader
11. Occult Slayer
12. Occult Slayer - Combat Reflexes
13. Occult Slayer
14. Occult Slayer
15. Occult Slayer - Pierce Magical Concealment
16. Witch Slayer
17. Witch Slayer
18. Witch Slayer - Stand Still
19. Witch Slayer
20. Witch Slayer

Note: The levels of Occult Slayer and Witch Hunter can be switched around as needed.

Warblade nets you the maneuvers Iron Heart Surge, Moment of Perfect Mind, and Action Before Thought. You also get Uncanny Dodge

Crusader nets you the Thicket of Blade Stance (combos nicely with Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon; wear spiked gauntlets or armor spikes to threaten nearby squares) and some healing maneuvers. it also nets you Indomitable Soul.

Witch Slayer nets you Mettle and Slippery Mind.

If playing human take EWP: Spiked Chain and WF: Spiked Chain instead of Guisarme.


Another option would be to look into importing the Witch Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/witch-hunter) class from Pathfinder.

[T.G. Oskar]

Here is a Witch Slayer/Occult Slayer build I came up with a while ago. It can be an okay "Mage Slayer".

Seems like an interesting start.

Still, it doesn't really incline me towards Witch Slayer or Witchborn Binder. The former is shorter, has Mettle, and that nifty ability that denies spellcasting as a swift action (so you can block one mage per turn), but the remaining levels are too specific (against binders or possessing creatures), and Slippery Mind is completely wasted (note that you take Occult Slayer before Witch Slayer; in essence, Occult Slayer's Mind Blank ability nullifies the need for slippery mind). On the other hand, the latter has more abilities focused on defeating casters and has access to Incarnum (a great asset), but the 6/10 meldshaping ability completely kills the class; particularly, since most of your abilities require having a high meldshaper level, that means you'll reach meldshaping level 16th with a full meldshaper class while a full caster will have CL 20th in the same regard.


Another option would be to look into importing the Witch Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/witch-hunter) class from Pathfinder.

The only problem I find with this is that it's a 3rd party class, regardless of whether the SRD wishes to place it. I don't like porting stuff from PF unless it's much better than 'brewing it, but I would have considered it if it was a 1st party class. If it were that way, I'd raid the Mongoose books for a good mage-slayer PrC or something...

Still: the idea you gave is very interesting. Perhaps if I build upon it, seeing how a change of feats might set a difference, I can work something out.

[herrhauptmann]

I know it's cross-world, but have you looked at quorbred from eberron? Secrets of sarlona I think.

[Arkusus]

Have you looked at the Spellthief yet? He borders a bit on casting, but his casting I suppose is optional.

Basically he's a rouge that gets some really nice anti-magic ambush abilities. With a little multiclassing between a few of the rouge-like classes, you can get some pretty hefty sneak attack dice.

What he lets you do is, when you get a sneak attack, you can substitute out the d6s for negating an active magic effect (like magical armor, a Psion's Vigor, Shared Pain, ect...) and you can also steal spells from their spellbook the same way.

Generally speaking, a pure spellthief will be one spell-level behind a wizard or cleric's spellcasting. (They will hit the next spell level before you can steal it) but sorcerers and favored souls should be easy pickings.

If you go with this, it's essential to get as much sneak attack damage in as fast as possible. Multi-weapon fighting is reccomended, for the extra hit, and once you drain their spells away, they should be easy pickings.


On a side note, you can also CAST the spells you steal from them. If your guy doesn't want to do that, the class still makes an excellent mage-slayer I think. (I mean seriously, completely de-buffing a wizard in one attack?)
Also, when you de-buff the wizard, you steal the buffs onto yourself, with the exception of personal ranged buffs, which just disappear.


Outside of mage-hunting, the class is only kinda neat. It's a little too niche for serious adventuring, but in the right circumstance, a spellthief can be deadly.

[herrhauptmann]

Have you looked at the Spellthief yet? He borders a bit on casting, but his casting I suppose is optional.

Basically he's a rouge that gets some really nice anti-magic ambush abilities. With a little multiclassing between a few of the rouge-like classes, you can get some pretty hefty sneak attack dice.

What he lets you do is, when you get a sneak attack, you can substitute out the d6s for negating an active magic effect (like magical armor, a Psion's Vigor, Shared Pain, ect...) and you can also steal spells from their spellbook the same way.

Generally speaking, a pure spellthief will be one spell-level behind a wizard or cleric's spellcasting. (They will hit the next spell level before you can steal it) but sorcerers and favored souls should be easy pickings.

If you go with this, it's essential to get as much sneak attack damage in as fast as possible. Multi-weapon fighting is reccomended, for the extra hit, and once you drain their spells away, they should be easy pickings.


On a side note, you can also CAST the spells you steal from them. If your guy doesn't want to do that, the class still makes an excellent mage-slayer I think. (I mean seriously, completely de-buffing a wizard in one attack?)
Also, when you de-buff the wizard, you steal the buffs onto yourself, with the exception of personal ranged buffs, which just disappear.


Outside of mage-hunting, the class is only kinda neat. It's a little too niche for serious adventuring, but in the right circumstance, a spellthief can be deadly.
Does their steal and recast count as an SLA/SU/EX?
And spellthieves can steal psionic abilities? Or is that just when using psionic/magic transparency?

[Arkusus]

Does their steal and recast count as an SLA/SU/EX?
And spellthieves can steal psionic abilities? Or is that just when using psionic/magic transparency?

There's a specific ruling that you can EITHER have (seperately) a spell-thief and an identical psionic-thief (who just works with psionics instead) or you can use the transparency rules to have one class handle both.

As far as the steal, the actual steal itself is considered a SU effect. This applies to stealing current buffs as well, but re-casting the spell is exactly like re-casting a spell.

Turns out after looking at it, that the spellthief actually also gets their own spellbook, but it is very limited, and they don't even get their first spell till level 4. I think level 20 leaves you with 3 level 4 spells.


Like I said before... it kinda IS casting... but mostly those effects I think are put in to make them more useful against non-magic enemies.

[Arkusus]

Oh yeah, another thing worth mentioning... It's not a terribly great class in general, but the Forsaker has some nice class features. The catch is that you can't ever benefit from a magical buff, or even from magical equipment without losing all class levels, BUT, you get some really nice spell resistance (11+class levels, that stacks with other SR) built in, and a bonus to an attribute each level, and bonus to natural AC based on your CON score. (Btw, 'magic' includes spell-like abilities, psionics, and anything else that's 'magic' but isn't magic.) (this rule does NOT depend on transparency)


So yeah... if you want to be like... super-fanatical about anti-magic stuff... he's got some interesting flavor, and some pretty good features.

Oh yeah, also he's really good at smashing magic items to destroy them.


Point of interest, the forsaker combo's really well with the Drow, who also has spell resistance of 11+character levels (and it is specifically stated that these spell resistances stack). Factoring in their +2 LA, a level 5 Drow Figher/Forsaker (Forsaker requires a few feats) this level 5 (effectively level 7) character has an SR of 30. And it goes up by two each level.

Like I said, not the best class (no magic equipment or buffs is a huge detriment) but, with that kind of SR, you can strut around with pride in front of some otherwise very potent spellcasters.

[Waker]

You may want to consider taking levels in Warblade or using Martial Study to grab Wall of Blades. Then dip into a class with Evasion, like Monk or Rogue to grab the Spell Reflection. Using the two together, you have a fairly solid defense against rays from enemy spellcasters.
If you also want Evasion, you could dip into one of the other classes or bind Impulse Boots to your Feet Chakra.

[herrhauptmann]

There's a specific ruling that you can EITHER have (seperately) a spell-thief and an identical psionic-thief (who just works with psionics instead) or you can use the transparency rules to have one class handle both.

As far as the steal, the actual steal itself is considered a SU effect. This applies to stealing current buffs as well, but re-casting the spell is exactly like re-casting a spell.

Turns out after looking at it, that the spellthief actually also gets their own spellbook, but it is very limited, and they don't even get their first spell till level 4. I think level 20 leaves you with 3 level 4 spells.


Like I said before... it kinda IS casting... but mostly those effects I think are put in to make them more useful against non-magic enemies.
As a Karsite, he'll lose all his actual casting. Oddly, he'd still have access to a spellbook and learn spells, but can't cast them.
But if he keeps his steal spell, that should be okay. For a straight karsite spellthief, as a DM, I'd reduce the karsite LA a little since he's losing a noticeable class feature.

Oh yeah, another thing worth mentioning... It's not a terribly great class in general, but the Forsaker has some nice class features. The catch is that you can't ever benefit from a magical buff, or even from magical equipment without losing all class levels, BUT, you get some really nice spell resistance (11+class levels, that stacks with other SR) built in, and a bonus to an attribute each level, and bonus to natural AC based on your CON score. (Btw, 'magic' includes spell-like abilities, psionics, and anything else that's 'magic' but isn't magic.) (this rule does NOT depend on transparency)


So yeah... if you want to be like... super-fanatical about anti-magic stuff... he's got some interesting flavor, and some pretty good features.

Oh yeah, also he's really good at smashing magic items to destroy them.


Point of interest, the forsaker combo's really well with the Drow, who also has spell resistance of 11+character levels (and it is specifically stated that these spell resistances stack). Factoring in their +2 LA, a level 5 Drow Figher/Forsaker (Forsaker requires a few feats) this level 5 (effectively level 7) character has an SR of 30. And it goes up by two each level.

Like I said, not the best class (no magic equipment or buffs is a huge detriment) but, with that kind of SR, you can strut around with pride in front of some otherwise very potent spellcasters.
Spell resistances don't normally stack, and the class doesn't specify how it would work if they did stack. (Just says "these spell resistances stack")

Your hypothetical drow. As a fighter5/forsaker2:
As a drow, his SR is 18 (11+7=18)
As a forsaker, his SR is 12 (10+Forsaker level)
Wouldn't he then have an SR of 20? Since he doesn't start doubledipping until he takes the prestige class?

[T.G. Oskar]

Gave it some thought these days, and decided for a few things:

For starters, Ranger 2 seems like a nice amount of levels (instead of 5). Arcane Hunter will remain, and I get two free feats with it. Might also replace wild empathy with...something. Not sure about the combat style, though: both TWF and Archery have their things, but I still need a melee weapon, and I won't get enough levels to justify switching it with Wild Shape (nor do I get much benefit out of it)

Afterwards, I plan on at least 5 levels of Incarnate. That'll cause some problem because of the multiclassing penalty, but I wouldn't gain anything from Ranger 3 (aside from the higher BAB and Will save) in order to justify getting another level. On the other hand, I can shape at least 4 soulmelds (with Essentia capacity of 5, because of the increase from 3rd level), the radiance ability (here's where alignment will become important, actually), and bind one soulmeld to the crown, feet or hands chakra. I was considering Totemist, but Incarnate soulmelds seem to help the build better than Totemist ones.

After that, and Occult Slayer...I'm still in a bit of a bind. The idea thus far is to get Shape Soulmeld (for a Totemist soulmeld that might help, like the Manticore Belt), three levels of Witchborn Binder (despite good taste, but I think I might have something that works out), and finish with Witch Slayer (for their ability to negate magic). However, Warblade levels provide solid maneuvers, so they're not yet scratched out; there's a chance that, without Witchborn Binder, levels in Ranger aren't so needed anymore and that would allow leapfrogging on Warblade to get higher-level maneuvers. There's also the idea of dipping Hexblade for Arcane Resistance (taking a cue from the Paladin suggestion, but specific to spells and SLAs), even if the curse is only 1/day and has a weak DC (nothing Hexbands can't fix; this would imply using the unofficial Hexblade fix).

Feat-wise, I'm also on a bit of a bind. Obviously, Mage Slayer and its ilk have to be there (they're the core of the build, after all), and to get into Occult Slayer, I need Imp. Initiative and Weapon Focus with a melee weapon. As a Ranger, I could use things like a double weapon or a pair of light weapons as the choice for WF, maximizing its benefits. If I drop Ranger for Warblade (or maybe Crusader?), then I would use it for a reach weapon (or, really, any weapon, because of Weapon Aptitude). That means three remaining feats (two from progression, plus the one from Karsite for keeping their human traits), and at least one of them might be taken for Shape Soulmeld (again, for Manticore Belt; clumsy flight, but I get Fly-By Attack with it, so it's a win...as long as I get a bind on the shoulders chakra). If I were to get into Witchborn Binder, I'd need to spend one slot on Alertness, so that leaves one more feat. However, based on other factors, I might just drop some of these feats.

As for the suggestions given: as mentioned before, Karsites can't cast arcane or divine spells, so Spellthief is mostly out of the question, and Psithieves, while allowed, are something I don't intend to work with (because psionics are otherwise indistinguishable from magic, which kinda defeats the point; Incarnum at least can count as "magic items"). Quorbred is really, really good (Disruptive Strike is just what the doctor ordered, and they gain the ability to use Intelligence instead of Charisma, which would apply to the Magic-Draining Strike of the Karsite), but the +2 LA hurts like hell (particularly since the Karsite ALSO has +2 LA). As to Forsaken...no. I intend the build to rely as little as possible on magic items, but I need to keep that source open to cover for any slights (plus, it's a 3.0 source, and it needs a LOT to catch up).

[Waker]

If you are gonna use Shape Soulmeld to grab a Totemist meld, I'd suggest looking at Phase Cloak for the Shoulder Bind. Being able to go Ethereal gets you around the majority of BFC effects and enemies. Really, the only things that you have to worry about are Force effects and Ethereal creatures.

[Diovid]

You could take a look at the spellthief alternative class feature spellskill which trades away spellcasting to be a bit better at skills. The variant is from Dragon Magazine #353. Hamper Magic is a great spellthief acf from the same Dragon Magazine.

[herrhauptmann]

Is dragon magazine on the table? Ranger had some alternate weapon styles in one of those.
If you've got the old crystal keep files, especially the one on classes, go to the end of the ranger section. Two handed, wrestling, net, mounted...

Is karsite la+2? Thought it was only +1.

[T.G. Oskar]

If you are gonna use Shape Soulmeld to grab a Totemist meld, I'd suggest looking at Phase Cloak for the Shoulder Bind. Being able to go Ethereal gets you around the majority of BFC effects and enemies. Really, the only things that you have to worry about are Force effects and Ethereal creatures.

I was thinking Manticore Belt for the ability to fly (and remain flying), alongside the free Fly-By Attack. I thought for a moment to add Phase Cloak, but the amount of time spent on the Ethereal Plane was too short IMO; definitely didn't thought of it as a method to bypass BFC effects. Thus, I inclined towards Manticore Belt, particularly because that way I could bypass Airstep Sandals and shape Impulse Boots instead (in case I want to have Evasion). If I were to add Phase Cloak, then I need to find another way to get reliable flight (which is one of the main defenses of a spellcaster); Airstep Sandals require you to end your movement on a solid surface, so unless I can combine it with a Levitate effect (to remain "fixed" on the spot instead of falling), I'll have to depend on a magic item for it.


You could take a look at the spellthief alternative class feature spellskill which trades away spellcasting to be a bit better at skills. The variant is from Dragon Magazine #353. Hamper Magic is a great spellthief acf from the same Dragon Magazine.

Still not convinced for Spellthief, particularly as I'd have to take it completely (Master Spellthief won't help me on that one).


Is dragon magazine on the table? Ranger had some alternate weapon styles in one of those.
If you've got the old crystal keep files, especially the one on classes, go to the end of the ranger section. Two handed, wrestling, net, mounted...

This also goes for Diovid's post, but: while I technically don't have a table (the build is meant as a show of practical optimization, fit for most tables), Dragon magazine is a case-by-case basis, and thus it's not something I can rely upon. Trust me, that's one of the things I was thinking (the Two-Handed Style would have meshed well with a guisarme or similar reach weapon), but because it would require being approved.


Is karsite la+2? Thought it was only +1.

Yup. LA +2. IMO, it's fair if it has LA +1 (bonus feat, one bonus skill point per level, spell resistance based on character level), but doesn't justify +2 LA that much. If it had a third ability that increases with character level, then +2 LA is completely justified, but the extra skill point is a human trait, a 0 LA race.

On a tangent: isn't it ironic that Karsites can be chameleons (they qualify as humans), but can't use neither Arcane nor Divine Focus?

[Waker]

If you had more levels of a meldshaping class, I would suggest taking Double Chakra so you could shape more than one meld to a slot. Sadly there isn't anything like Practiced Meldshaper.

[elonin]

Does Occult Slayer fit here?

[herrhauptmann]

Does Occult Slayer fit here?
You're kidding right?
It's been part of the build since the beginning.


The build would go like this:

Karsite Ranger 5 (using Arcane Hunter ACF)/Occult Slayer 5 (these last levels are obligatory)

[T.G. Oskar]

You're kidding right?
It's been part of the build since the beginning.

I think it's something else; namely, that elonin thinks Occult Slayer is a poor fit. I thought the same thing (that the poster didn't notice the bit about Occult Slayer being a non-negotiable part of the build), but then I figured, if that tidbit is pretty obvious, then the question might just be whether the PrC is actually the best choice instead of going with different choices.

Talked to a friend of mine, and he mentions that while the build is great, it lacks damage potential, which weakens the build. Going with the proposed idea (Ranger 2/Incarnate 5/Occult Slayer 5/Witchborn Binder 3/Witch Slayer 5), a Strength of 18 (never mind the high amount of Charisma and Constitution needed for the build to work) and a +5 Magebane weapon, that means an average of 20 points (2d6+2 from the Magebane, +5 from the enhancement bonus, +4 from Strength and +2 from favored enemy) plus the average of the chosen weapon, against a 20th level character. There's a good argument that the caster might simply run away (as it has nothing to prevent it from simply teleporting away) or using a scroll if their spellcasting is denied (or a magic item that's not a weapon), so the first few hits should be meaningful.

I'm thinking that I might drop the Witch Slayer levels, get the Quorbred template (that way I can protect myself against psionics as well), and add some Warblade levels. I also got a pretty strong argument towards Totemist rather than Incarnate, but I'm still inclined towards the latter. With the former and 1-2 levels of Barbarian, I might just get Totem Rager and more meldshaping potential. Totem Rager can replace Witchborn Binder, which would remove the need for Ranger levels (replacing Alertness for Cobalt Rage). That'd end up with Barbarian 2 (allowing for Pounce)/Totemist 5/Totem Rager 3/Occult Slayer 5/Warblade 2, with the Warblade levels spread around. That'd leave 3 levels, which is what you'd get by buying the first LA at 12th level and leaving the build with LA +3. Is it a good switch-up?

EDIT: All this time, I ignored one slight bit I missed: I can't take Pierce Magical Concealment because I need Blind-Fight. Curiously enough, there are ways to bypass that, so it's not so necessary. That means one free feat. Also, unsure if it's best to go Lawful (for the bonus to attack rolls) or Evil (and go for the bonus to damage). Going for a guisarme as the bonded weapon for Occult Slayer (and Weapon Focus, while at it) and combining with armor spikes, so TWF is the best choice for the Ranger combat style.

[Maginomicon]

Spellskill Spellthief (spellskill variant loses spellcasting), and pick up the Spellfire Wielder feat.

(The Spellskill variant is in Dragon Magazine #353, Spellfire is detailed in Magic of Faerun page 17 and the Spellfire Wielder feat is in Magic of Faerun page 23)

[herrhauptmann]

I think it's something else; namely, that elonin thinks Occult Slayer is a poor fit. I thought the same thing (that the poster didn't notice the bit about Occult Slayer being a non-negotiable part of the build), but then I figured, if that tidbit is pretty obvious, then the question might just be whether the PrC is actually the best choice instead of going with different choices.

You know, the alternate interpretation of the question makes sense.
I think the general impression of Occult Slayer is that it lets you survive spellcasters better, but doesn't give you the ability to really hurt them. Vicious strike is really the only offensive ability, and it requires readying an action.




Talked to a friend of mine, and he mentions that while the build is great, it lacks damage potential, which weakens the build. Going with the proposed idea (Ranger 2/Incarnate 5/Occult Slayer 5/Witchborn Binder 3/Witch Slayer 5), a Strength of 18 (never mind the high amount of Charisma and Constitution needed for the build to work) and a +5 Magebane weapon, that means an average of 20 points (2d6+2 from the Magebane, +5 from the enhancement bonus, +4 from Strength and +2 from favored enemy) plus the average of the chosen weapon, against a 20th level character. There's a good argument that the caster might simply run away (as it has nothing to prevent it from simply teleporting away) or using a scroll if their spellcasting is denied (or a magic item that's not a weapon), so the first few hits should be meaningful.
Is a +5 Magebane really necessary? I know most people don't go over +3 due to weapon crystals and the price difference from a +3 to a +5 is significant and only gets worse as you add other enhancements.
Will the extra +2 from magebane stack with the existing +5 to make the weapon a +7? If it does, does that mean the weapon can penetrate DR /Epic? (I've heard yes and no from different DMs)



I'm thinking that I might drop the Witch Slayer levels, get the Quorbred template (that way I can protect myself against psionics as well), and add some Warblade levels. I also got a pretty strong argument towards Totemist rather than Incarnate, but I'm still inclined towards the latter. With the former and 1-2 levels of Barbarian, I might just get Totem Rager and more meldshaping potential. Totem Rager can replace Witchborn Binder, which would remove the need for Ranger levels (replacing Alertness for Cobalt Rage). That'd end up with Barbarian 2 (allowing for Pounce)/Totemist 5/Totem Rager 3/Occult Slayer 5/Warblade 2, with the Warblade levels spread around. That'd leave 3 levels, which is what you'd get by buying the first LA at 12th level and leaving the build with LA +3. Is it a good switch-up?

EDIT: All this time, I ignored one slight bit I missed: I can't take Pierce Magical Concealment because I need Blind-Fight. Curiously enough, there are ways to bypass that, so it's not so necessary. That means one free feat. Also, unsure if it's best to go Lawful (for the bonus to attack rolls) or Evil (and go for the bonus to damage). Going for a guisarme as the bonded weapon for Occult Slayer (and Weapon Focus, while at it) and combining with armor spikes, so TWF is the best choice for the Ranger combat style.
Sorry, I'm not good enough at Totemist to be able to give a good answer on power. I know that 3 more levels of warblade will give you a bonus feat from a list that includes Blindfight. But if you're just going for the bonus feat, a single level of fighter would probably be better.
I've been thinking about it, but I'm thinking that blindfight/PMC might be a better choice than PMP and some other feat. This is a fairly high bab build right? Since bab improves faster than AC, it would probably be better to ignore someones miss chances than their AC boosts like barkskin and magic vestments. Unless you know you'll have allies that will need help hitting the casters buffed AC. PMC should also work against your own misschances if you don a ring of blinking (since the ring duplicates the spell and the feat ignores miss chances from spells).

As far as upping the damage, you could go for LeapAttack/Shocktrooper, but that's 3 feats you might not have free. I'm sure you've thought of it, but I'll add it here for others that want to do a similar build.


Items:

Have you looked at Steadfast boots from MiC? If you've got a 2 hander, you're automatically set against charges (with double damage). This also doesn't eat any of your AOOs for the round. It comes into play as soon as they enter your reach too, rather than waiting for them to exit your first threatened square.
And if they're still up after taking your readied hit, and they complete the charge by moving one more square? You get an AOO for exiting your threatened range (with your armor spikes).
There's also the smoking weapon from Lords of Darkness. The main reason for it is that it gives you a 5x5 square of stinking cloud. It has the fort save vs sickened for anyone else in your square, which is generally useless. It also gives you miss chances against attacks as if you were standing on the edge of a stinking cloud. Doesn't help if someone hits you with an attack in the middle of your move.
Finally, I've got a list of weapon effects you might like.
{table=Head]Name|Book|Cost|Effect|Save
Wounding |DMG|+2|1 Con damage|None
MarrowCrushing |BoVD|+3|1 Con Damage|None
Enfeebling|BoED|+1|crit, 1d6+2 Temp Str Damage|None
Paralyzing|BoED|+2|Paralyzed up to 10 rounds|Will 17
Roaring|BoED|+3|Shaken, 2d6 sonic|Will 22
Nervewrack|Dung 105pg21|+1|On Crit Many effects1d4 rounds|None
Subjugating|Heroes of Battle|+2|Shaken/Frightened 5 rounds|Will 20
Doom Burst|Mini|+1|Crit, shaken 5minutes|None
Paralytic Burst|Mini|+2|Crit, Hold Monster|None
Weakening|Shining South|+3|1 Str Damage|None
Lifedrinker weapon|DMG/SRD|38k|2 negative levels, 1 negative level on user|Fort 16, next day.
Sudden Stunning|DMG2|2000|Swift action, 1d4+1 rounds|Ref: 10+ 1/2 level+User Cha mod
CurseSpewing|BoVD|+1|On hit:-4 morale to attack, saves, ability checks, skill checks|Will DC15
Souldrinking|Epic|428K (I think)|On hit. 2d4 negative levels|Fort 25 next day
[/table]
I think Doomburst and Nervewrack are great for crit fishers.
Anything with a will save should be ignored for this character unless you're planning to hit them with a high level Jack B Quick build, which should force a failed will save within 2 rounds (at least 1 out of 20).
Sudden Stunning is nice with Quorbred since you can key it to your Int stat.

[T.G. Oskar]

You know, the alternate interpretation of the question makes sense.
I think the general impression of Occult Slayer is that it lets you survive spellcasters better, but doesn't give you the ability to really hurt them. Vicious strike is really the only offensive ability, and it requires readying an action.

Recall that, if you wield the right weapon, Weapon Bond adds to the damage. It's only ONE weapon you can bond (so it's not as useful for a TWFer), but coupled with Magebane that'd be 3d6 per hit, so as long as the weapon isn't sundered or disarmed. Still, it's not exactly an "offensive" ability than a buff that boosts offensive capabilities. Still, IMO it's still an invaluable part of the build, as the more defenses I get, the better.


Is a +5 Magebane really necessary? I know most people don't go over +3 due to weapon crystals and the price difference from a +3 to a +5 is significant and only gets worse as you add other enhancements.
Will the extra +2 from magebane stack with the existing +5 to make the weapon a +7? If it does, does that mean the weapon can penetrate DR /Epic? (I've heard yes and no from different DMs)

The +5 is necessary; at least, the enhancement bonus is. Nothing says anything about skipping a Greater Magic Weapon buff on the weapon, but who wouldn't want more attack bonus and damage? Particularly someone who needs it more than anyone else.

As for the stacking bonus...not sure, but the higher bonuses, the better. If I can't punch DR/Epic in that way, I don't have to worry for that many low-CR monsters with it (aside from, say, Aspect of Tiamat?)


Sorry, I'm not good enough at Totemist to be able to give a good answer on power. I know that 3 more levels of warblade will give you a bonus feat from a list that includes Blindfight. But if you're just going for the bonus feat, a single level of fighter would probably be better.

It's just that my friend is a big fan of Totemist, and he always inclines towards "offense is the best everything; the rest is secondary". Totemist is sorta like Druid, in that it combines 3/4 BAB, a decent hit dice and abilities focused on self-buffing and manifesting a plethora of natural weapons to attack the enemy. Since I only get two binds, I need to get the best of them, and I want at least one granting a reliable method of flight while adding to damage potential and defensive capabilities.

It's the same with Warblade: I'm less interested in the bonus feat and more in the BAB, HD size and specifically maneuvers. Dipping Fighter is perfectly reasonable for the two bonus feats, and dipping Barbarian for Pounce feels just natural, so it's a tough call on that one.


I've been thinking about it, but I'm thinking that blindfight/PMC might be a better choice than PMP and some other feat. This is a fairly high bab build right? Since bab improves faster than AC, it would probably be better to ignore someones miss chances than their AC boosts like barkskin and magic vestments. Unless you know you'll have allies that will need help hitting the casters buffed AC. PMC should also work against your own misschances if you don a ring of blinking (since the ring duplicates the spell and the feat ignores miss chances from spells).

Between Incarnum and magic items, there are reliable ways to get the needed traits to bypass miss chances. Note that PMC makes Blind-Fight essentially pointless, as one merely helps to bypass most types of miss chances while the other denies that protection if the ability is based on magical effects. Having something like, say, blindsight or a force/ghost touch weapon makes any kind of miss chances irrelevant. On the other hand, PMP dispels any effect that boosts AC, which is pretty common: Shield of Faith, Barkskin, Mage Armor, Shield, Shield of Warding, Divine Protection, Shield Other, Protection from Evil, Magic Circle against Evil, Holy Aura...and that's going from the top of my head. Some of these spells are insanely good protective spells.


As far as upping the damage, you could go for LeapAttack/Shocktrooper, but that's 3 feats you might not have free. I'm sure you've thought of it, but I'll add it here for others that want to do a similar build.

Yeah: thought of it, but it requires a charger build, which kinda counters the idea of adding Mage Slayer in the first place (since it relies on denying the spellcaster the ability to cast defensively, in order to force it to move, which invites to make a tripper build). It could work with a very specific kind of weapon (it really screams for the Spinning Sword in Secrets of Sarlona, because it allows to threaten all squares within 5 ft. and 10 ft.), but then again it would make a tripper build much, much better.


Items:

Have you looked at Steadfast boots from MiC? If you've got a 2 hander, you're automatically set against charges (with double damage). This also doesn't eat any of your AOOs for the round. It comes into play as soon as they enter your reach too, rather than waiting for them to exit your first threatened square.
And if they're still up after taking your readied hit, and they complete the charge by moving one more square? You get an AOO for exiting your threatened range (with your armor spikes).
There's also the smoking weapon from Lords of Darkness. The main reason for it is that it gives you a 5x5 square of stinking cloud. It has the fort save vs sickened for anyone else in your square, which is generally useless. It also gives you miss chances against attacks as if you were standing on the edge of a stinking cloud. Doesn't help if someone hits you with an attack in the middle of your move.
Finally, I've got a list of weapon effects you might like.
{table=Head]Name|Book|Cost|Effect|Save
Wounding |DMG|+2|1 Con damage|None
MarrowCrushing |BoVD|+3|1 Con Damage|None
Enfeebling|BoED|+1|crit, 1d6+2 Temp Str Damage|None
Paralyzing|BoED|+2|Paralyzed up to 10 rounds|Will 17
Roaring|BoED|+3|Shaken, 2d6 sonic|Will 22
Nervewrack|Dung 105pg21|+1|On Crit Many effects1d4 rounds|None
Subjugating|Heroes of Battle|+2|Shaken/Frightened 5 rounds|Will 20
Doom Burst|Mini|+1|Crit, shaken 5minutes|None
Paralytic Burst|Mini|+2|Crit, Hold Monster|None
Weakening|Shining South|+3|1 Str Damage|None
Lifedrinker weapon|DMG/SRD|38k|2 negative levels, 1 negative level on user|Fort 16, next day.
Sudden Stunning|DMG2|2000|Swift action, 1d4+1 rounds|Ref: 10+ 1/2 level+User Cha mod
CurseSpewing|BoVD|+1|On hit:-4 morale to attack, saves, ability checks, skill checks|Will DC15
Souldrinking|Epic|428K (I think)|On hit. 2d4 negative levels|Fort 25 next day
[/table]
I think Doomburst and Nervewrack are great for crit fishers.
Anything with a will save should be ignored for this character unless you're planning to hit them with a high level Jack B Quick build, which should force a failed will save within 2 rounds (at least 1 out of 20).
Sudden Stunning is nice with Quorbred since you can key it to your Int stat.


Depends if I can leave the Feet chakra free. As an Incarnate, bounded Airstep Sandals work somewhat better than Steadfast Boots (it grants flight, after all). As a Totemist, it *might* work.
Sadly, I lack that book, but I've seen the enhancement somewhere. It's cheap, though, so it's good to consider with another kind of weapon (nothing says I can't make Smoking Armor Spikes, no?)
Sudden Stunning was updated into the MIC into a +1 enhancement, BTW; that said, while I get a good saving throw out of it (the save is based off Int rather than Cha), the amount of uses per day is still limited to Cha (Quorbred only affects DC modifiers). Souldrinking is now a synergy effect for the Enervating special quality, which activates on a crit (on the other hand, it's "cheaper", as it's a non-epic special quality). Cursespewing is a +3 special quality, so it's kinda expensive, and it requires a successful critical hit. Of all enhancements, only Wounding and Sudden Stunning/Stunning Surge are actually worthwhile, alongside Magebane and maybe something else.