Hiding and invisibility

[kulosle]

So the spot check says that a DC of 20 lets you notice invisible creatures, but they stay invisible. I was originally under the impression, before rereading the skill, that invisibility grants you a +20 to hide, but this seems to indicate that you make two checks, one to notice the invisibility and one against their hide check. While being invisible is still useful for hide checks because it grants concealment, even if they pass the DC 20. But it doesn't seem as useful as i thought. Is this right? Am i miss-reading something?

[TuggyNE]

DC 20 is just to notice that there is some invisible creature more or less nearby somewhere; you have no clear idea where, and it loses none of the benefits of invisibility except strategic surprise — in fact, you don't even know what square it's in.

[Crake]

i always figured the DC20 was for an invisible creature making no attempt to conceal itself like moving slowly and quietly, base DC 0, +20 from invis?

[Killer Angel]

So the spot check says that a DC of 20 lets you notice invisible creatures, but they stay invisible. I was originally under the impression, before rereading the skill, that invisibility grants you a +20 to hide,

Maybe because it is so (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm)? (see "special") :smallsmile:
It's +20 when moving and +40 if you don't move

[Duke of Urrel]

You only ever get one Spot check to notice an invisible creature. If the creature isn't bothering to use Hide skill, you get a Spot check at DC zero plus 20 to notice it, as Crake said. If the invisible creature makes a Hide check, it adds a modifier of +20 to this check. Granting one Spot check to notice a creature if it is invisible, but two Spot checks if it is both invisible and hides, would completely defeat the purpose of hiding, wouldn't it? Hiding should generally make a creature harder to see than not hiding.

Even if a creature is invisible, the same rules for hiding apply. For example, invisibility alone does not enable you to hide in plain sight – that is, to make a Hide check after being spotted – unless you create a diversion first. It also does not enable you to make a Hide check without an obstacle, a shadow, vegetation, or a murky medium (such as fog) to hide in or behind.

However, invisibility offers you another option besides hiding to make yourself harder to see, one that Killer Angel has already mentioned: You can simply stand still. Usually, this increases the invisibility bonus that you add to your Spot DC from +20 to +30, but if you are a Construct or Undead, you increase it to +40. Often, when you are invisible, you may find that standing still is a better option than using Hide skill to avoid being noticed. Of course, this is not the case when you're standing right in the middle of a room and there's a good chance that an enemy will bump into you.

I consider hiding and standing still to be two very different things. Even if you don't have to move in the tactical sense in order to make a Hide check – that is, even if you can hide right where you happen to be, because you have enough concealment right there – you still have to duck, crouch, kneel, or bend your body in some way to take advantage of the concealment in order to make a Hide check. I therefore consider hiding without "moving" to be a move action* (and not a five-foot step, because I consider hiding while moving to be a "difficult" rather than easy move), and one that precludes standing still. After you have moved to hide, I allow you to stand still to add a bigger bonus to your Spot DC, but this requires you to do nothing else during your turn. (Of course, your dungeon master may have different opinions on these matters.)

It is therefore possible for an invisible creature first to make a Hide check and then to stand still, but I would require you to take two turns to do so. Moreover, if you are invisible and somebody pinpoints your location while you are trying to hide – by making a Listen check,** not a Spot check, so don't forget to use Move Silently skill while you're at it – you have no choice but to move in order to hide again. Standing still is not an option if somebody already knows where you are. On the other hand, when you're invisible, simply moving without making a Hide check still adds +20 to your Spot DC, and if you create a diversion (which I allow you to do by making a Bluff check to feint), you can move and make a Hide check that still adds +10. (Of course, your dungeon master may have different opinions on these matters.)
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*I am aware that the RAW consider making a Hide check under most circumstances to be no action at all – but the RAW also assume that you hide only while taking some other action. This action is usually a move action, though for a very talented creature able to work with a –20 penalty, it may also be an attack action. Some creative interpretation is needed to decide what kind of action a creature takes when it makes a Hide check without actually moving in the tactical sense.

** TuggyNE is correct to point out that pinpointing the location of an invisible creature cannot be done with a Spot check – but it can be done with a Listen check that scores 20 higher than necessary.

[BowStreetRunner]

Even if a creature is invisible, the same rules for hiding apply. For example, invisibility alone does not enable you to hide in plain sight – that is, to make a Hide check after being spotted – unless you create a diversion first. It also does not enable you to make a Hide check without an obstacle, a shadow, vegetation, or a murky medium (such as fog) to hide in or behind.

Actually, Duke is only partially correct here.

Invisibility does NOT allow you to hide while being observed. So if you activate invisibility you cannot make a hide check against a creature who witnessed you turning invisible. They just have to make the DC 20 spot check to notice you.

Invisibility DOES allow you to hide without something to hide behind. The requirements to make a hide check are COVER or CONCEALMENT. Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) grants concealment, so you can use it to hide 'behind' the invisibility effect.

If either condition is not met (1 - not being observed, and 2 - cover or concealment) you cannot hide. Invisibility provides one of the conditions, you need to either provide the other or have another ability than overcomes the need for the first (usually hide in plain sight).

If you can make a hide check, then the spot check to notice you has a DC of your Hide check +20 (if moving) or +40 (if standing still). If you cannot make a hide check, the spot check to notice you is at a DC of 20.

[HalfQuart]

Invisibility does NOT allow you to hide while being observed. So if you activate invisibility you cannot make a hide check against a creature who witnessed you turning invisible.
I'm not particularly well versed in the nuances of these rules, but since using Hide is usually a non-action, can't you turn invisible first and then immediately hide? That way you've got concealment and you're not being observed (you're invisible) -- essentially the same as running around a corner or behind cover like in the example of the Hide skill. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a glossary entry for "observed".

[Duke of Urrel]

Actually, Duke is only partially correct here.

[…]

Invisibility DOES allow you to hide without something to hide behind. The requirements to make a hide check are COVER or CONCEALMENT. Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) grants concealment, so you can use it to hide 'behind' the invisibility effect.

Your argument is valid, but I still resist drawing the same conclusion. Yes, invisibility confers concealment – total concealment, in fact – but this raises the following question, from a common-sense point of view: If you're already totally concealed, because you're invisible, then what can you actually do to make yourself even harder to see? I grant that if you have the special ability to Hide in Plain Sight, we should simply wave away this question, saying, "You can hide in plain sight because that's what the ability says you can do. Don't spoil the fun by over-thinking it." But if you don't have the special ability to Hide in Plain Sight – if you're just invisible, and that's all – I think the commonsensical question is not out of place. And I answer the question saying: "If you're invisible, but you don't have the special ability to Hide in Plain Sight, then you need some other cover or concealment to hide in or behind in order to make a Hide check. There should be a difference between being invisible with the Hide in Plain Sight ability and being invisible without it." I apply the same argument to the concealment effects that are conferred by the Blur spell and the Displacement spell. No doubt, not everybody will agree with me – and nobody has to. Ask your dungeon master!


I'm not particularly well versed in the nuances of these rules, but since using Hide is usually a non-action, can't you turn invisible first and then immediately hide? That way you've got concealment and you're not being observed (you're invisible) -- essentially the same as running around a corner or behind cover like in the example of the Hide skill. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a glossary entry for "observed".

I reject the notion that making a Hide check is the same thing as a spontaneous free action that you can take at any time, and I have to quibble with the rule writers about this. Hide skill requires "no action" because you always make a Hide check while you are taking some other action, and I interpret this to mean that you must take some other action in order to make a Hide check. You can't just spontaneously wish to be hidden, no matter how much skill you have. This is just as true when you're invisible as under any other circumstances.

True enough, the question of whether you are or are not "observed" is a tricky one. I consider you always to be "unobserved" with respect to any creature that has not yet spotted you (by making a Spot check or by smelling you out with olfactory Blindsight, which is equal to spotting) or pinpointed your location (by making a Listen check that scores 20 higher than needed or by sniffing you out with the Scent ability). Note that you may be observed by some creatures and "unobserved" by others, so that you may be able to stay hidden with respect to some enemies while others know where you are.

[BowStreetRunner]

If you're already totally concealed, because you're invisible, then what can you actually do to make yourself even harder to see?...Being invisible is not the same as not being present. If you are invisible and present, even though you do not appear to the vision of an observer, you still have an effect on your surroundings. This is what they can see. They can see your footprints if you are standing on soft ground. They can see the dust swirl around you if you are standing in a sandstorm. They can see the grass and leaves move as you walk, the branches part, and perhaps many other small details. Which is why it is a DC 20 to realize there is an invisible person moving by (small details give it away) or DC 40 to realize there is an invisible person standing still, even if they don't make any attempt to hide their presence.

[Segev]

Odd.

Looking at the Hide skill, it says it's a -20 penalty to hide while attacking. It also says that hiding is usually done as part of another action, which attacking would qualify as.

But then it gives us rules for Sniping and says Hiding after Sniping is a move action.

I would think it generally better to just declare oneself to be hiding-while-attacking, as they carry the same penalty.

[Duke of Urrel]

Being invisible is not the same as not being present. If you are invisible and present, even though you do not appear to the vision of an observer, you still have an effect on your surroundings. This is what they can see. They can see your footprints if you are standing on soft ground. They can see the dust swirl around you if you are standing in a sandstorm. They can see the grass and leaves move as you walk, the branches part, and perhaps many other small details. Which is why it is a DC 20 to realize there is an invisible person moving by (small details give it away) or DC 40 to realize there is an invisible person standing still, even if they don't make any attempt to hide their presence.

I completely agree that while you are invisible, you can make yourself harder to see by standing still. However, I still fail to see how, with Hide skill alone, you can make it harder to see things like footprints or dust swirling around you while you move. Only magic or a special ability, such as the Pass Without Trace spell or the druid's Trackless Step ability, may achieve this – and maybe we should say that being invisible with the help of either one of these powers is equal to having the Hide in Plain Sight ability. When you use only Hide skill while invisible, my commonsensical notion is that you can make your movement harder to see only if your surroundings provide cover or concealment.

I repeat that hiding and standing still are two different things. You certainly can stand still in plain sight while you're invisible, and there may even be some skill involved in this. For example, maybe we should say that if you make a Balance check at DC 20, you can stand as still as a Construct or Undead and raise your Spot DC bonus all the way up to +40. Standing still unquestionably makes you harder to see while you're invisible. But that's not the same as using Hide skill, as I've argued above. Moreover, once you've been spotted, you can't disappear again by standing still, because if you try this, everybody will assume, correctly, that you're still in the place where you were last spotted. You can disappear only by moving, which requires you to make a Hide check to hide in plain sight – and that brings us right back to our point of contention.

Again, I'm not disputing that your logic is valid: Invisibility is, as you say, conceptually a kind of concealment, and the word "concealment" even appears in its description as a special ability. Some dungeon masters will agree with you and not with me, saying that I'm splitting hairs and making the game unnecessarily complicated. But I still think that being invisible (or being concealed by the Blur spell or Displacement spell) with the special ability to Hide in Plain Sight (or with the help of the druid's Trackless Step or the Pass Without Trace spell) should be more advantageous than being invisible (or magically blurred or displaced) without this extra ability.

[Segev]

How do you hide footprints while invisible? Same way you hide your feet while visible: you walk in areas where you leave minimal to no prints, you leave prints in shadowed spots or behind visual obstructions, etc. Hence, a hide check, to see how well you do.

[JonU]

After reading this I had a question that I'll ask by way of a hypothetical situation. Lets say that you and the other person are standing 20 feet apart facing each other. I agree that if you turned invisible and did nothing else, it wouldn't be to hard for the other guy to make a pretty good guess as to your location. Now lets use this the same situation but change our actions. First we bluff them by shouting something like "watch out behind you!" while pointing behind them. Assuming that the bluff works and he turns to see what is behind him, you cast invisibility on yourself before he turns back around. Now he doesn't know that you are still standing there invisible. All he know is he turned around and when he turned back in your direction you weren't there. Would you now get the +40 to your hide or would it still be a 20 to spot you?

[kulosle]

So after rereading hide again. I now notice the special section saying being invisible gives you a bonus to hide (not sure how i missed that), but i don't see where it says it goes up for being a construct/undead. It just says it's +40 for standing still.

Also the hide action says usually none. So you can still hide while standing still. It's probably a check to see how well you held still.

And saying you need additional concealment beyond invisibility would be to say you always need two sources of concealment. For instances, how do you hide in a fog? The rules aren't perfect and i doubt there will ever be a system that is. But the hide skill clearly states as long as you have any amount of concealment you can hide.

Thanks killer angel for posting the srd, i don't know why it was noticed the special clause there but not in the book.

[BowStreetRunner]

After reading this I had a question that I'll ask by way of a hypothetical situation. Lets say that you and the other person are standing 20 feet apart facing each other. I agree that if you turned invisible and did nothing else, it wouldn't be to hard for the other guy to make a pretty good guess as to your location. Now lets use this the same situation but change our actions. First we bluff them by shouting something like "watch out behind you!" while pointing behind them. Assuming that the bluff works and he turns to see what is behind him, you cast invisibility on yourself before he turns back around. Now he doesn't know that you are still standing there invisible. All he know is he turned around and when he turned back in your direction you weren't there. Would you now get the +40 to your hide or would it still be a 20 to spot you?

The SRD agrees that "You can use the Bluff skill to help you hide. A successful Bluff check gives you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you." So now if you succeed on your Bluff check, you are able to get past the part where you can't hide while being observed. Invisibility explicitly grants the concealment needed to hide. Congratulations, you can make a hide check now. If you are moving it is at +20, or if you are standing still it is at +40.