Pathfinder: How to beat a Paladin with an Evil PC?

[Thrair]

Heya. I recently had the pleasure of being allowed by a DM to play an Evil Cleric in a party with mostly good players, with a couple neutral. The GM trusted me to play a character with separate and sometimes conflicting goals from the rest of the party without being a **** about it.

I had a Ring of Mind Shielding so I wasn't rumbled right out of the gate by Detect Evil or the like. I was able to keep my status ambiguous for quite a while, partly due to the party's Fighter being on the brutal side of Chaotic Neutral and drawing a lot more attention than the Aasimar cleric (I was playing it as a fallen worshipper of Aroden who had placed his soul under contract to Asmodeus for clerical powers rather than accept his god was dead. It both allowed me play against expectations and subvert assumptions, and also gave the GM an open-ended option to screw with my character for plot reasons and should I start being an ass.)

Unfortunately, I was eventually exposed when I was hit by a friendly fire Holy Smite from the party's other cleric (Unfortunately, I suspect it was deliberate. That player has both a nasty tendency to meta-game, and tends to be petty when you don't play according to their expecations). Now, unfortunately I failed my save, which was doubly bad since, as an Aasimar who was evil, I qualified as "Evil Outsider" and took all the extra damage (had to point that out to the GM, as he assumed it was against Outsider with Evil Subtype).

Naturally, it's hard to disguise taking an assload of damage all at once and being blinded by a "good" spell. Couple failed bluff attempts and knowledge (religion) checks later and the cat was out of the bag. To prevent getting ganged up on, I used my trump card I'd been saving for such a dire occasion and challenged our Paladin to "honourable single combat". Since she was a Paladin of Iomedae, she had to accept. Given we were currently in the story-arc villain's lair, we both agreed to postpone the duel until after we had defeated our mutual foe.

Sadly, the duel never happened as my character was killed by the villain. Black Tentacle + AoE spells +Caster build cleric + hefty prior damage and allied cleric refusing to aid a "monster" = dead cleric. Shame, too. Both me and the Paladin's player were looking forward to the fight.


But it got me thinking... how would one go toe-to-toe with a Paladin PC as an Evil PC?

Paladins have excellent saves, making them hard to tag with spells (especially if a save negates). They're also immune to many of the nastier status effects and have generous hit dice. On top of that, they have swift-action self-healing to impede the use of attrition tactics and their Smite Evil makes them do a LOT of damage.

Kinda left me stumped. Without being VASTLY more optimized (and our GM is careful to prevent any one person from outshining the others, either by taking the person aside and asking them ease off a bit/help them with their build/tactics or by targeting offending muchkins with nasty save-or-sucks), a Paladin seems to be EXTREMELY difficult to take out by conventional means.

Sure, there's always creative use of terrain and the advantage of range, but those aren't always going to be possible.

Since I really enjoy playing the occasional token evil teammate, and also thrive on inter-party interactions, I'd really like to get other people's thoughts on this. It can make for some AMAZING roleplay sessions when the party's characters end up divided or outright opposed to one another, and if that's the case, it's nice to know how to be able to make those fights more even.


How would you go about making an character able to confront a Paladin head-to-head, one-on-one?

[Psyren]

Not the answer you were looking for perhaps, but PvP in 3.P is just a bad idea in general. The game is just not designed for it well. The operative portion of "token evil teammate" is "TEAM" i.e. if it escalates to open PvP conflict then you're no longer a team. It's just a pointless derail of the campaign at best, and as your own story notes, it just invites ill-will and metagaming from the other players since nobody likes to think of their character as being a dupe or patsy for a long period of time. PvP unfortunately is more a problem with the paladin than anything else since other classes can at least tolerate, if not support, an evil teammate.


To answer your question, in case you do end up fighting a paladin in the future (preferably for another reason), they are strong in 1-on-1 fights but weaker aganst numbers due to the nature of their smite. Bog them down with smaller summons and they will either waste it or hold off on using it. Summons also obviate their high saves since you aren't targeting them directly. Use battlefield control effects (again, preferably the ones without a save) to keep yourself out of melee range as well. You can also buff up and wade into melee yourself, but this is harder for the PF cleric so you may want to hold off until your other spells have whittled him down some. Be sure to dispel his buffs as well, which shouldn't be too hard as his caster level is likely lower than yours.

[Thrair]

While I'll agree PvP can derail a campaign, I'd like to say I was actually doing a lot of behind the scenes work that HELPED the party, as well as getting my own ends accomplished. Funny thing about having a local Tiefling NPC with underworld connections, he and I can swap Infernal Contracts to trade favours and get stuff done. Had to dirty my hands a bit, but the party was none the wiser for most of it.

It's helped by the fact that this gaming group is over the internet using a site called Roll20, so it's easy to pass private messages back and forth with each other/the GM, which limits the *player passes note to GM, everyone else makes perception and sense motive checks* metagaming.

Further, I was Lawful Evil, which is, perhaps the best evil alignment for getting along well with others. After all, Sarenrae and Iomadae may not LIKE Asmodeus, but they can and have worked together. If the deities can do it, so can the PCs.


Finally, most of my gaming group is laid back and kick's ass. There's actually quite a lot of inter-party strife, but for most of us, it's actually fun. Like the time the Fighter didn't like a NPC bard's song and threw a bottle at his head, forcing the Paladin to intervene in a bar brawl. Which quickly got out of hand in all the best ways.

Tbh, in this case, the issue was less the Paladin and more the Cleric. As I said, that player's our resident control-freak. I don't especially enjoy their company, but hey... rest of the group is worth it and it's hard to find a gaming group that doesn't have at least one person like that.

[Thrair]

Further note, for this campaign: The Paladin was actually one I was getting along with. She was playing her Paladin as more of a "Actions, not Words" and "Wise but Unlearned". So my Character was actually helping teach her character some of the history behind her deity, and she worshipped Aroden's Inheritor (Iomedae used to be Aroden's Herald).

[Krazzman]

Barbarians Solution:
Go in Rage, Grapple Evil Guy, Smack Paladin with Evil Guy :smallcool:

On a serious note:
I would try to use spells without Saves, going for summoning some nasty stuff with smite good and basically run away thanks to my airwalk spell.

If he went for the divine bond then just smite him while you are savely away. Else summon the 10 hells on that poor paladin. He will lack the action economy to do something against it. But remember... they can take quite some punishment.

[Dayaz]

While I'll agree PvP can derail a campaign, I'd like to say I was actually doing a lot of behind the scenes work that HELPED the party, as well as getting my own ends accomplished. Funny thing about having a local Tiefling NPC with underworld connections, he and I can swap Infernal Contracts to trade favours and get stuff done. Had to dirty my hands a bit, but the party was none the wiser for most of it.

It's helped by the fact that this gaming group is over the internet using a site called Roll20, so it's easy to pass private messages back and forth with each other/the GM, which limits the *player passes note to GM, everyone else makes perception and sense motive checks* metagaming.

Further, I was Lawful Evil, which is, perhaps the best evil alignment for getting along well with others. After all, Sarenrae and Iomadae may not LIKE Asmodeus, but they can and have worked together. If the deities can do it, so can the PCs.


Finally, most of my gaming group is laid back and kick's ass. There's actually quite a lot of inter-party strife, but for most of us, it's actually fun. Like the time the Fighter didn't like a NPC bard's song and threw a bottle at his head, forcing the Paladin to intervene in a bar brawl. Which quickly got out of hand in all the best ways.

Tbh, in this case, the issue was less the Paladin and more the Cleric. As I said, that player's our resident control-freak. I don't especially enjoy their company, but hey... rest of the group is worth it and it's hard to find a gaming group that doesn't have at least one person like that.

This. So many people have trouble accepting this. I once played an Asmodean cleric who was actually as good a person as they could be, and I still had to deal with months of threats just because I worshiped a devil...

anyways, the question was how would you fight a paladin. There is a spell for Asmodean clerics that is an evil healing spells, because it uses the blood of a devil. I made a apaldin fall by using it on him in a fight because I was his ally before the fight and he was using [evil] magic to heal himself. Needless to say, while the fight got much easier, I'm still banned from playing that character at my table now...

[Psyren]

Wait - how did he fall for a spell you cast?

[navar100]

While PvP is a bad idea, the fault is not entirely on the player. The DM allowed for it to happen. Curious as to whose idea it was, not that it makes much of a difference.

[The Fury]

Wait - how did he fall for a spell you cast?

Capricious gods using Insane Troll Logic, that's how.

I'm going to have to agree that PvP is usually a bad idea all around. If both you and the Paladin's player are both mutually wanting to do this then it's probably fine, otherwise... well, it's kind of jerkish.

But on the subject at hand, if you made a character capable of creating undead overwhelming the Paladin with wights or zombies might be a sound opening tactic-- wear her down and maybe even make her waste her Smite Evil. After that, AoE spells or ranged touch attack spells that just do damage can bring her hit points down. Even if the Paladin is able to close into melee, you've already weakened her considerably and might actually be able to win in a straight up fight now.

[CTrees]

Wait - how did he fall for a spell you cast?

By the description it sounds like Infernal Healing, which... certainly wouldn't be a good thing for a Paladin to accept, given the spell description. However, it still allows a save if the target doesn't want it (as do most/all "harmless" spells), and the description says the subject can feel the evilness. If it *was* that spell, and he paladin *didn't* get a save, something is screwy.

[Karoht]

Paladins?
Lets see. High armor, usually equalling high armor check penalty.
Low skill points.

Gunslinger hits ranged touch AC's, ignores all that pesky armor. Now the armor is a hinderance.

Climb a tree, find a good vantage point that requires a skill check to get into.
Make a good Stealth check. Use some camoflauge. Also, use a disguise to make it harder to recognize you later.
Take some sniper related feats. Try and start shooting 120 feet away or further.

Some Paladins dump wisdom because they can make it up with Charisma to their Will save. This will only make it less likely that they will detect you. This is before we factor in other potential advantages such as invisibility and the like.

Make a full round action of attacks. Then spend a round hiding in cover. Repeat until they have you in plain sight, at which point you spend every round attacking.

As for a getaway when you need to? 1 scroll of teleport is really all you need.

But, as others have pointed out, PvP is strongly not recommended. I only posted the above to show you one possible method for exploiting a Paladin's weaknesses.

[Thrair]

Lots of interesting feedback here, much of it along the lines I figured: Straight up, head-to-head, Paladin will win. Guess that just means you can't fight on their terms.

Four other things:

1) The main person who pushed for it to go into PvP was the other cleric, and not everyone was playing their character wanting to jump me. As I said, they can be really petty. Mostly in a passive-aggressive and roundabout way. It's not amazingly god-awful, but it's always there. You learn to deal with people like that, and the DM usually does step in if they get too pushy.

2) My character actually wanted to BEAT the Paladin, but he did NOT want to kill her. She was too valuable an asset to lose, and her order, for better or worse, was Aroden's rightful successor.

3) My character getting killed by the Paladin in a fight would have been ****ing awesome! So I had no problems with losing, and had plans for what I could do if I did.

4) How did that Paladin fall because a spell you cast on him? I mean, I can kinda see it from a game-mechanic RAW standpoint, but... Not meaning to be rude, but a DM that's willing to, over a fairly minor technicality, very thoroughly **** two players (the Paladin fell, your character was banned), sounds like a rules lawyer who started DMing way before they were ready. Rule 0, or DM fiat, exists for a reason.

[Thrair]

PS, sorry for the god-awful grammar... but I work night shifts and it's 5 PM.... my brain is FRIED.

[The Fury]

Guess that just means you can't fight on their terms.


This is true of just about every character class.

Fight a Wizard at range? You're going to get nuked.

Go against a Fighter in melee? You'll get a sword through your guts.

Go toe-to-toe against a Monk in a bare-knuckle fist-fight? Hope you like knuckle sandwiches.

So on and so forth. Really, the best tactics are the ones that exploit the weaknesses of whatever character you're fighting.

[Raven777]

1) The main person who pushed for it to go into PvP was the other cleric, and not everyone was playing their character wanting to jump me. As I said, they can be really petty. Mostly in a passive-aggressive and roundabout way. It's not amazingly god-awful, but it's always there. You learn to deal with people like that, and the DM usually does step in if they get too pushy.

Couldn't the rest of the party tell that cleric to go take a hike? If they liked you, friendship works across alignments, and the paladin himself is allowed to party with evil teammates if they share common foes.

[Thrair]

Couldn't the rest of the party tell that cleric to go take a hike? If they liked you, friendship works across alignments, and the paladin himself is allowed to party with evil teammates if they share common foes.

Enough of them did. It's how I was able to turn a 1v4 into a 1v1.

Party was:
1 CN/CG Fighter (RPing the transition from CN to CG)
1 CN Barbarian.
1 NG Bard.
1 LG Paladin (Iomedae)
1 NG Cleric (Sarenrae)
1 TN Druid.


Of these, the Cleric decided on the spot I had been betraying them the whole time to the current villain and wanted me dead. (Despite having no evidence besides the Holy Smite hurting me badly. And, in fact, there wouldn't BE any such evidence. I was under infernal contract as part of the terms of my soul-contract to deal with the odd task for Asmodeus. This guy had been violating his own contracts.)

The Paladin wanted to bring me into a church for questioning under truthsayers and inquisitors to see what crimes I had commited. Something I understandably wanted to avoid as I WAS playing Evil and had commited a couple murders on the side to facilitate the party's bypassing of security in this city. One of them was on a guy who probably deserved it, but another was simply for expedience's sake.

The Fighter had had enough of my evasiveness and decided I was shady enough to warrant him blowing off steam. He just wanted to rough me up a little as a lesson.

The Bard had a huge crush on the Paladin and wanted to help her bring me in.

The Barbarian and Druid were opposed to fighting me, both in the current situation, and in general, as they'd never seen me do anything against the party aside from deflect the odd question.

By challenging the Paladin to single-combat, I narrowed it down a to 1v1 where I might not even be killed outright. While the Cleric wanted to keep killing me, the Paladin was bound to accept the duel and the Barbarian and Druid made it quite clear that not only was it to REMAIN a duel, but that it'd better be damn fair (the Cleric wanted me to be restricted from resting for new spells, despite middle-aged character and low physical scores).

To make things simple, I just wanted to figure out if I was missing anything for taking out a Paladin in single combat; which it seemed like not all that much.

Stick to spells that have partial effects on a save, kite them where possible, and whittle them down with summons / spiritual weapon casts.

The issue with the party was a one-time thing. And that mostly because the Cleric's player is a control freak and really doesn't like characters that act against their wishes. Which is why a character that was supposed to be a meek and naive cleric of Sarenrae (she actually cried the first time she was in combat) was being the most bloodthirsty member of the group. This was one of the worse examples of the player's petty meta-gaming behavior. Not usually this bad, and the DM was getting ready to intervene, I think, when it became a non-issue.