Highest possible skill check result for a 1st-level human?

[Rogue Shadows]

I'm just trying to calculate out what the highest possible skill check result for a 1st-level, no templates, starting wealth only, human of any class to achieve without magic.

The particular skill in this case doesn't matter, and I'm assuming there are better options than just "20 (take/roll 20) +2 (skill kit) + 3 (skill Focus) + 2 (other Skill Feat) + 4 (ranks) + 4 (ability modifier)," which nets a result of 35.

[cerin616]

I'm just trying to calculate out what the highest possible skill check result for a 1st-level, no templates, starting wealth only, human of any class to achieve without magic.

The particular skill in this case doesn't matter, and I'm assuming there are better options than just "20 (take 20) +2 (skill kit) + 3 (skill Focus) + 2 (other Skill Feat) + 4 (ranks) + 4 (ability modifier)," which nets a result of 35.

+2 skill synergy. plus we need to comb some classes and find one with a skill bonus at first level.

[Fouredged Sword]

A marshal can get a higher check for any skill, doubly so for diplomacy.

They get to add their Cha to the skill, so ad another +4, then on top of that, they get skill focus diplomacy for free, so we can dig up another +2 skill feat.

That caps us out around a DC41 diplomacy check at level 1.

We are capped at 4 ranks, so synergy bonuses don't come into play just yet.

[cerin616]

We are capped at 4 ranks, so synergy bonuses don't come into play just yet.

Good point

[BowStreetRunner]

A 1st level Barbarian gets both Fast Movement and Rage. The fast movement will give a +4 bonus to Jump checks. Rage will increase the Strength modifier to Jump checks by another +2. Assuming your DM agrees on a masterwork tool for Jump (springy shoes anyone? :smallconfused:), you would then have:

20 + 2 (masterwork jumping shoes) + 3 (Skill Focus) + 4 (Run) + 4 (ranks) + 6 (22 Strength while Raging) + 4 (40 ft movement) = 43

Edit: beaten by the Druid, who can cast Longstrider for the same increase to movement, giving a +4 bonus to Jump checks, Guidance for a +1 competence bonus to his next skill check, and Jump for a +10 enhancement bonus to his jump checks.

20 + 2 (masterwork jumping shoes) + 3 (Skill Focus) + 4 (Run) + 4 (ranks) + 4 (18 Strength) + 4 (40 ft movement) +1 (Guidance) + 10 (Jump) = 52

Edit: in each case above I have replaced the Acrobatic feat (only a +2 bonus) with the Run feat (+4 bonus). Of course, if flaws are allowed they could have both.

[Rogue Shadows]

So 41 is looking like the peak here...

[Flickerdart]

Be Old for +2 to mentals, which is +1 for those skills.

Furthermore, at level 1 you can take Favored and Primary Contact (using flaws or selling your soul or whatever means you need) to get a +2 Competence bonus to a skill (plus a guild-specific benefit) and break your skill cap for a skill by 1 rank, meaning that you can now get synergy bonuses.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, we could have a few aid others. That can apply a stacking +2 each until your DM puts a stop to it.

Also, one could have a marshal standing near for adding HIS cha to your check.

[BowStreetRunner]

So 41 is looking like the peak here...
Not so fast. See my edits above.

[Segev]

Aid Another combined with spending your spare starting gold on hiring hirelings to aid you in the task can get you +2 per hireling, up to probably a maximum of +16 if the DM assumes you have to have the hireling adjacent to you to aid you.

[Segev]

Not so fast. See my edits above.

One of his specifications was "without magic."

[Pilo]

Level 1 Marshal human

Diplomacy 44: 20+4(Rank)+3(Skill focus(Diplomacy))+1(guidance)+5(Motivate Charisma)+5(Charisma)+2(Nymph kiss)+2(Negotiator)+2(Masterwork tools)
with Eagle splendor (+2 to charisma) Lvl3 casted for 60gp and Guidance casted for 5gp

You can do a lot better though.

Wizard 1 human:
Jump:58 : 20+4(Rank)+4(Strenght)+3(Feat:Skill focus(Jump))+4(Feat:Jump)+10(Spell:Jump)+12(Spell: Expeditious Retreat)+1(Spell: Guidance(5gp))

Oh! Without magic...
Level 1 Marshal human
Diplomacy 58: 20+4(Rank)+3(Skill focus(Diplomacy))+4(Motivate Charisma)+4(Charisma)+2(Nymph kiss)+2(Negotiator)+2(Masterwork tools)+2(Inspire competence from an allied level 3 bard)+5(Level 20 Dragon shaman with Presence aura)+10(Level 10 Exemplar whose use Lend talent)

Level 1 Barbarian human
Jump 49: 20+4(Rank)+3(Skill focus(Jump))+4(Motivate Strength by an allied Marshall)+6(Strength)+4(Feat:Run)+4(Fast movement)+2(Masterwork tools)+2(Inspire competence from an allied level 3 bard)

[Flickerdart]

Aid Another combined with spending your spare starting gold on hiring hirelings to aid you in the task can get you +2 per hireling, up to probably a maximum of +16 if the DM assumes you have to have the hireling adjacent to you to aid you.
You can always get very small helpers, and fit more of them in every square. Nanobots, anyone? :smallamused:

[Maginomicon]

Deftness is a cantrip from Dragon Magazine #302 page 49 that gives a +2 insight bonus on a single skill check for the next 1 minute. I dunno whether a higher insight bonus is used in each example build in this thread, but it's an obscure reference some people may not have accounted for.

[Segev]

Again, one of the specifications in the OP is "without magic." That said, if the OP is okay with it...

Don't forget Enlarge Person as well for Str based skill checks. And Reduce Person for dex-based ones. Used appropriately, the one you cast adds +1 more.

[Maginomicon]

You can always get very small helpers, and fit more of them in every square. Nanobots, anyone? :smallamused:
A quick tangent, but nanobots are actually a thing in D&D... in the Sandstorm book. They don't explicitly call them nanobots, but constructs smaller than a grain of sand. Further, they are involved in the creation of one of the nastier monsters in that book (almost like a nanobot infection a la The Borg).

[Aharon]

You can always get very small helpers, and fit more of them in every square. Nanobots, anyone? :smallamused:

I don't remember Nanobots that well, what was needed for their creation, again? can they be acquired by a first Level character?

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, I think jump checks at the way to go.

Human barbarian with an 18 str

That grants a 40ft move speed and 22 strength when raging.

Then take the quick trait and the feat that adds 5ft to your move speed. Now youhave a 50ft move speed for +8 to jump, and +6 str mod. -1 feat.

4 ranks in jump.

Sell your soul. gain 4 feats (I think) Skill Focus, Acrobatic, Favored, Primary Contact. +7 to jump

Flaw for the Run feat, +4.

5 ranks in tumble. +2 synergy bonus.

Masterwork Tool (jumping pole) +2.

This caps out at...

+33 for a DC 53 check by taking 20, meaning you can cover 53 feet of distance or 13.25 ft of vertical height. Puts MJ to shame! :smallbiggrin:

I think we may have some soul sold feats left, and a flaw, so we may be able to find +2 feats to get us up to something like +41 or so.

[dspeyer]

Daredevil Athlete, --, Gain +5 competence bonus on physical skill check 3/day.

Ape totem barbarian gets +8 to climb (maybe not as good as the jump things)

Is there RAW for ex morale bonuses?

Getting bitten by a lycanthrope probably to doesn't count.

[Segev]

What is the "sell your soul" mechanic?

Do DMs really allow it?

[BowStreetRunner]

One of his specifications was "without magic."
Ugh. I actually remember reading that too. It's just what I was thinking was no magic items. If the spells inherent to the class are ruled out, then that removes primary casters from the running.

Which is too bad, because I just worked out the Wizard/Sorcerer casting Enlarge Person, Jump and Expeditious Retreat.

20 + 2 (masterwork jumping shoes) + 3 (Skill Focus) + 4 (Run) + 4 (ranks) + 5 (20 Strength while Enlarged) + 12 (60 ft movement) +10 (Jump) = 60

[cerin616]

What is the "sell your soul" mechanic?

Do DMs really allow it?


Well, there is the literal "sell your soul" mechanic of chaos shuffling feats into other feats.

Then there is bowing down before your DM and begging, crying, for extra stuff.

Both work at DMs discretion.

[Fouredged Sword]

Not exactly magical, but one could take the wild talent feat for a psionic power, then take psicrystal affinity for +3 to a skill, and the feat that grants 3 level 0 spells and acquire familiar for another +3.

I don't know of a psicrystal personality or familiar that grants a bonus to jump checks though.

[Flickerdart]

What is the "sell your soul" mechanic?

Do DMs really allow it?
It's in one of the evil books (Fiendish Codex, Elder Evils, something like that). You get feats based on how powerful you are in exchange for eternal damnation when you die. It's mostly an NPC tool, though, for obvious reasons.



Well, there is the literal "sell your soul" mechanic of chaos shuffling feats into other feats.

Then there is bowing down before your DM and begging, crying, for extra stuff.

Both work at DMs discretion.
There's nothing about Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos that does anything to your soul.

[Karnith]

What is the "sell your soul" mechanic?
There are two that I am aware of. One is in Fiendish Codex II; in exchange for selling your soul to a devil, you can get a number of bonuses. If you sell your soul through a Pact Certain, you can get a +7 bonus to a class skill (among many other things), and if you sell your soul through a Pact Insidious, you can get up to a +9 bonus to a class skill (again, among many other things or combination of things). These are supposed to be balanced by the fact that a character who sells his soul cannot be Raised, Resurrected, or Reincarnated.

The other method is swearing allegiance to an Elder Evil, which nets you free Vile feats at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20.

I am unaware of a method of selling your soul that nets you four feats at level one, though.

[BowStreetRunner]

If you are working with 2 traits and 2 flaws, you can get 4 feats and 2 traits.

Traits I would recommend Quick (+10 ft movement which equates to a +4 jump check) and Musclebound (+1 Strength based skill checks includes jump).

Feats you take Acrobatic (+2), Skill Focus: Jump (+3), Daredevil Athlete (+5), and Run (+4).

So now our Barbarian gets:

20 + 2 (masterwork jumping shoes) + 3 (Skill Focus) + 2 (Acrobatic) + 4 (Run) + 5 (Daredevil Athlete) + 4 (ranks) + 6 (22 Strength while Raging) +1 (Musclebound) + 8 (50 ft movement) = 55

And this is of course, unaided.

[cerin616]

There's nothing about Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos that does anything to your soul.

Except that you need to be evil to use vile feats, so I would consider a good character using embrace the dark chaos to be selling your soul to change a feat.

Its not official rules, its just flavor.

[Flickerdart]

Except that you need to be evil to use vile feats, so I would consider a good character using embrace the dark chaos to be selling your soul to change a feat.

Its not official rules, its just flavor.
Abyssal Heritor feats are not [Vile], and even if they were, doing an evil act doesn't make you sell your soul.

[cerin616]

Abyssal Heritor feats are not [Vile], and even if they were, doing an evil act doesn't make you sell your soul.

My bad, and like i said, its not a rule that you sold your soul, just a flavor. Meaning it is inter changeable with your flavor, or his flavor. I just like to look at it as you sold your soul to become a hint more demonic.

and my bad, I thought it was a vile feat you get.

[Segev]

If the spells inherent to the class are ruled out, then that removes primary casters from the running.

Maybe we can get from the OP what he's targeting this for so we know whether "spells that are part of the class," "psionic feats," "class-granted spell-like abilities," and the like are individually verboten or allowed.

'cause Dragonfire Adepts get an Invocation for +6 to all Knowledge skills and to Spellcraft, and Warlocks get one for +6 to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate.

A human DFA with Hidden Talent (Call to Mind, +4), 18 int (+4), Draconic Knowledge (+6), and a tome on the appropriate subject (+2), on top of a +3 from Skill Focus and 4 ranks of skill is a +23.

But that is definitely requiring both a psi power and a dragon invocation.

[ericgrau]

Replace skill focus and acrobatic with psionic talent + mental leap for a +10, 60

I can get this to 61 but it involves a requirement to be psionically focused for speed and then expending your psionic focus for a jump check bonus. RAI you might use one for a running start and then the other to jump, but I assume by RAW it doesn't work?

[Flickerdart]

My bad, and like i said, its not a rule that you sold your soul, just a flavor. Meaning it is inter changeable with your flavor, or his flavor. I just like to look at it as you sold your soul to become a hint more demonic.

and my bad, I thought it was a vile feat you get.
Given that selling your soul is an actual mechanic, forcing that on people is not "just flavor" but straight-up houseruling.

[cerin616]

Given that selling your soul is an actual mechanic, forcing that on people is not "just flavor" but straight-up houseruling.

I think your getting a bit too serious on the whole thing... they don't "lose their soul" just sell their soul to the shadow. Not literally "Ill give you this for that" but like in a metaphoric sense.

[Flickerdart]

I think your getting a bit too serious on the whole thing... they don't "lose their soul" just sell their soul to the shadow. Not literally "Ill give you this for that" but like in a metaphoric sense.
What you said was
Well, there is the literal "sell your soul" mechanic of chaos shuffling feats into other feats.
I direct you to the word literal, which as I'm sure we're all aware is the opposite of metaphorical.

[cerin616]

What you said was
I direct you to the word literal, which as I'm sure we're all aware is the opposite of metaphorical.

my bad, i spoke poorly. the quotes were supposed to say this is "selling your soul" not actually vendoring your soul for goods.

[Rogue Shadows]

Maybe we can get from the OP what he's targeting this for so we know whether "spells that are part of the class," "psionic feats," "class-granted spell-like abilities," and the like are individually verboten or allowed.

No magic means no magic - no magic spells, magic items, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, etc. For the sake of argument it also includes magic-like effects, such as psionics, incarnum, pact-, shadow-, and truename-magic. This includes either self-generated or coming from some friend or fiend that could not possibly have been called forth by a 1st-level character except by magic nor grant an ability except by magic - so this rules out selling your soul and "Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu" as well (as even if calling up Pazuzu isn't magic, whatever Pazuzu is gonna grant you certainly will be).

As for what this is for...since the overwhelming majority of people in most campaign worlds are 1st level, I'm wondering what the upper limit for a skill check is, the point past which things start to get truly extraordinary.

A 1st-level character, for example, should probably not be able to achieve Olympic-level results on anything.

For the record, though, I'm interested only in the pure skill check result, not what the result actually does. So, for example, I want to know the maximum possible Jump check result, but not how far that Jump check result actually let you jump.

Basically, I'm finally getting to the Skill fix mentioned in my signature. I've arbitrarily decided to follow the idea presented by this guy, (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2) which basically states:
- 1st-level characters are just about anyone you meet in real life. They exist by the billions.
- 2nd-level characters are above average and represent someone who's encountered an unusual number of challenges. Still, they exist by the millions.
- 3rd-level characters are exceptional, though not amazingly so. They exist in the tens of thousands.
- 4th-level characters are Olympians, mega-sports athletes, genius professors, and so on. Only a few hundred of these people exist every generation.
- 5th-level characters are once-in-a-century superstars - the likes of Napoloen Bonaparte, Nikola Tesla, Leonardo da Vinci, Sargon, and so on. Peak normal human capacity. Only the barest handful of these people have *ever* existed.
- Once you hit 6th level, you are officially dealing with superhumans: people with more skills and abilities than anyone who has ever historically existed on Earth.

Or to break it down in a different way...

1st-5th level: Batman, Captain America
6th-10th level: Spiderman, Starfire
11th-15th level: Raven, Magneto
16th-20th level: The Hulk, Superman (movie version only)
21st level or higher: Specter, Dr. Strange., Superman (comic version)

Basically, I need to figure out what skill check results are achievable by normal humans, without magic, before I start recalculating skill DCs.

Note that this is not because I want to change low-level skill DCs - as the article I linked above shows, skills are actually pretty okay (not perfect, but pretty good) at showcasing actual human capability at low-levels. The thing is that, since starting at 6th level you can certifiably call your character superhuman, that means that starting at 6th level, you should be able to achieve notably superhuman things with good skill check results with relative ease. A character, in other words, should not have to wait until epic levels to Spot an invisible character; it should instead be achievable starting at level 6.

[Xervous]

1. Feat: Disease Immunity The Flu
2. Contract Festering Anger
3. wait a while
4. VEEEEERY big jump check.

[karkus]

A quick tangent, but nanobots are actually a thing in D&D... in the Sandstorm book. They don't explicitly call them nanobots, but constructs smaller than a grain of sand.

What are those called again? :smallconfused:

[georgie_leech]

Given the rationale for changing the skills, it looks like Jump might not be the best choice. In D&D, even a bog-standard Commoner with no ranks will randomly be able to jump 20 feet from a running start, not that far off from World Records. Heck, add a Skill Focus, Athletic, and a +4 from STR and you get the literal world record jumps at 29 feet 5% of the time, or always if you can Take 20 on it.

[Rogue Shadows]

Given the rationale for changing the skills, it looks like Jump might not be the best choice. In D&D, even a bog-standard Commoner with no ranks will randomly be able to jump 20 feet from a running start, not that far off from World Records. Heck, add a Skill Focus, Athletic, and a +4 from STR and you get the literal world record jumps at 29 feet 5% of the time, or always if you can Take 20 on it.

In 3.0, Jump checks were handled a little differently, and much more realistically. The 3.5 version is easier to memorize but, yes, it does have that problem.

It's actually covered in that article I mentioned:


How well do these numbers hold up when compared to other skills? Well, let’s take a look at the Jump skill.

Based on our analysis of the Knowledge and Craft skills, we know that a 1st level character has professional competency in their chosen field. We also know that a 5th level character represents the most legendary levels of skill – the type of people who come along once in a generation.

So, when it comes to jumping, a 1st level character probably represents a typical college athlete. A 5th level character, on the other hand, represents the small handful of jumpers who challenge and break the world records. It would make sense then, that Olympians would probably fall in the 3rd to 4th level range (better than your run-of-the-mill specialists, but not quite at the level of once-in-a-generation).

Let’s take a look at a 4th level Olympian jumper:

+7 skill ranks
+3 Strength bonus
+3 Skill Focus

That’s a +13 bonus.

Now, back in the original 3rd Edition (3.0), the result of a running long jump check was:

5 ft. + 1 ft. per 1 point above 10

This can be more easily paraphrased this way: The distance of a long jump is equal to your check result minus 5 feet.

Our Olympian’s jumps will range from 9 feet (stumbling all the way on a roll of natural 1) to 28 feet. But a typical Olympic event involves three jumps in which the best distance is recorded. That means that roughly 80% of the time, our long jumper will be jumping between 20 feet and 28 feet in competition.

Looking at the 2004 Olympics, the top forty men’s long-jump results during the qualification round range from 24 feet to 27.25 feet. Those types of results will be posted approximately 60% of the time by our Olympic long-jumper.

With out 5th level jumper we can bump the ability bonus up to +4, add a +2 synergy bonus from Tumble, or a +4 bonus from the Run feat. The result would be a the ability to achieve jumps in the 29-35 foot range. The world record is currently set at 29.35 feet.

So, once again we’re finding that 5th level is right at the dividing line between legendary real world performances and the impossible realms of the superhuman.

And you’ll find similar fidelity with the high jump rules. (In fact, the 3.0 high jump rules are even more accurate than the long jump rules.)

The jumping rules, however, are perhaps the most visible victim of gameplay compromises in D&D. When the system was revised for D20 Modern, the distance of a long jump was revised to simply equal the DC of the check. This change was later picked up in the 3.5 revision of the D&D rules.

This rule is a lot simpler to remember, but it makes jumping significantly easier than any other skill (compared to real world performance). Under the new rules, 1st level characters can now trivially perform Olympic-level jumps and our typical Olympians will be routinely smashing the world record. (The high jump rules, on the other hand, remain fairly accurate.)

Note that the Alexandrian assumes something that most D&D players don't, but which Wizards of the Coast did in just about everything in core D&D: that characters will generally have base 1st-level scores of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8, if they're exceptional; or 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, and 8, if they're standard (or a mixture of 10s and 11s, whatever).