Nice job fixing it, nale! [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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King of Nowhere

2013-07-30, 10:30 AM

Despite nale's undying hatred for the order, I cannot help but see a pattern of him ending up being helpful to them. It goes back a long time, but recent events reinforce that pattern.

Let's go with the details
- in the dungeon of dorukan, nale tried to kill the order to get the talisman of dorukan. he needed someone of pure heart to touch the sigils. That way, he gave xykon the idea that maybe the gate could be unsealed the same way. therefore, xykon tried to take the order alive, instead of smoking them all with a meteor swarm the moment they entered the throne room. So nale saved the ootsers lives, as well as causing roy to meet celia

- then nale tried to get the order killed by sending them on the starmetal sidequest. They got lucky the ancient black dragon was out of home, only her son left back. So, the oots got starmetal for roy, and a nice bunch of xp.

- Nale kidnapped roy's sister to lure them to cliffport and frame elan. That had 3 consequences: 1) elan met julio scoundrel, took a level in badass and became more effective 2) haley got her speech back, and got engaged with elan 3) the order was delayed on their departure for girard's gate, and thus could partecipate in the battle for azure city, where they managed to save hinjo and lien and a boat of civilians.

- nale ambushed the order in the empire of blood. the aftermath convinced tarquin to reveal what he knew about the draketooths to the order two days before he planned (he wanted to wait the end of the three-days festival). Because of that, the order was able to beat Xykon to the gate.

- and now, nale killed malack and freed durkon from his thralldom.

I wonder if those are all coincidences caused by the plot, or if rich is intentionally trying to make every evil action of nale accidentally work for the forces of good.

Quild

2013-07-30, 10:48 AM

Xelbiuj

2013-07-30, 10:59 AM

What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger.

Of course any victorious encounter with him is going to result in xp and phat loots. Not like hes casting disjunctions.

Kornaki

2013-07-30, 11:00 AM

Nale sent them on the quest for the starmetal, which led to V smoking a black dragon, making a deal with the devil and casting familicide, killing the protectors of this gate.

Any bets on whether Roy would have swapped his sword for a living Draketooth family?

NerdyKris

2013-07-30, 11:05 AM

- and now, nale killed malack and freed durkon from his thralldom.

I wouldn't be too quick to label this a good thing. We have no idea what Durkon is going to act like now that he's been freed. He might even join with Nale. Or eliminate Nale and join Tarquin.

Ellye

2013-07-30, 12:27 PM

Nale sent them on the quest for the starmetal, which led to V smoking a black dragon, making a deal with the devil and casting familicide, killing the protectors of this gate. Though we have no idea whether a living Girard clan would be a good thing for the Order. For all we know, they are insanely paranoid non-Good people.
Their standard protocol could be to eliminate the Order as soon as they announce knowing about the gate. Just in case.

Yeah, at the end of the day, it's too much of a butterfly effect to speculate about how things could have been.

Aquillion

2013-07-30, 12:36 PM

I wouldn't be too quick to label this a good thing. We have no idea what Durkon is going to act like now that he's been freed. He might even join with Nale. Or eliminate Nale and join Tarquin.Would Nale even allow it? Durkon is a member of the hated Order of the Stick.

Either way, Vampirism makes you evil; it doesn't automatically change your loyalties (once you're no longer a thrall, anyway.) Durkon likely still cares about the people he previously cared about and hates the people he previously hated, he's just likely to be more selfish about it now.

Evil people can still have friends, and there's no reason why Durkon would stop considering Roy his oldest friend.

F.Harr

2013-07-30, 01:33 PM

How this all works out is likely going to be an arc in the next book.

quasit

2013-07-30, 02:35 PM

Would Nale even allow it? Durkon is a member of the hated Order of the Stick.

Either way, Vampirism makes you evil; it doesn't automatically change your loyalties (once you're no longer a thrall, anyway.) Durkon likely still cares about the people he previously cared about and hates the people he previously hated, he's just likely to be more selfish about it now.

Evil people can still have friends, and there's no reason why Durkon would stop considering Roy his oldest friend.

While I'm on the same boat, I cannot help but to be afraid of the opposite, based on Malack's speech about his former seven brothers in that dim other life so long past (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html)

Aquillion

2013-07-30, 02:42 PM

I suppose I'm also thinking in terms of storytelling. Durkon wrestling with his new state seems like it has more potential, storywise, than Durkon suddenly becoming an evil death robot with no conscience or feelings because it now says EVIL on his character sheet.

Kornaki

2013-07-30, 02:43 PM

While I'm on the same boat, I cannot help but to be afraid of the opposite, based on Malack's speech about his former seven brothers in that dim other life so long past (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html)

I figured that was more a reference to the fact that he knew them 200 years ago, which is probably several of his original species' lifespan. Also being a vampire for 200 years has probably altered his memories of what life is like. It's like trying to remember what you were like when you were a 5 year old.... you can maybe kind of piece it together but do you think your memory of what you were like is at all accurate to how your parents would describe you?

But I don't think we can tell one way or another how Durkon is going to act

Sir_Leorik

2013-07-30, 02:45 PM

I wonder if those are all coincidences caused by the plot, or if rich is intentionally trying to make every evil action of nale accidentally work for the forces of good.

Most of those examples are coincidences. Nale probably knew Xykon would scry on the Linear Guild, but he didn't intend to cause Xykon to let the OotS live, and Nale had no idea his kidnapping/"Parent Trap" scheme would keep the OotS from heading to the Western Continent or make Elan a more effective hero or cure Haley's aphasia.

The major exception, where Nale really earned the "Nice job fixing it, villain!" award is the Starmetal sidequest. Nale intended that as a ruse to allow the remaining Linear Guild members to escape town, but he figured there was no Starmetal to be found, despite Sabine's objections. Thanks to Nale, Roy now has a +5 Starmetal greatsword. Nice job fixing it, indeed! :smallbiggrin:

archon_huskie

2013-07-30, 03:05 PM

so how much XP does Nale get for defeating Malak?

russdm

2013-07-30, 03:06 PM

Not to mention pretty much everything else he does. So far, even Lord Kubota (the noble that tried to kill hinjo and who V one-shotted) has been better at villianly then nale. Its like Nale is a wimpy version of Zuko from Avatar the last airbender. Nale's got alot of spirit and atitude, but he just keeps lacking that spark that moves Elite Mooks into full on villians. I think Nale was established too strongly as a scrappy villian because his plans having only succeeded due to immense order of the stick stupidity.

I am totally expecting his killing of Malack to end up blowing up in his face and resulting in serious injuries or death. If he survives, it will just reinforce to me his complete lack of true villianiness.

Cat Dungeon

2013-07-30, 07:32 PM

So nale saved the ootsers lives, as well as causing roy to meet celia

You consider that a good/positive thing?

2) haley got her speech back, and got engaged with elan

WHAT?!:smallconfused:

King of Nowhere

2013-07-30, 07:41 PM

It's more like you're following every thread until you meet Nale.

- The sigil thing? Maybe, but I doubt Xykon would have smoked them right away, he seemed to have fun watching them, prepared a bunch of goblins to "defend him", etc... The order went lucky since they clearly were way too low level for this encounter.

- The sidequest? You can then tell that Xykon will be the artisan of it's own destruction by shattering Roy's sword which led him to upgrade his sword. It also led to V being attacked by the ABD and having to accept the pact, thus delaying Xykon in AC for months, but if events had go differently, Roy wouldn't be dead in AC and those months wouldn't be of use (he wouldn't have his special feat though). Also maybe Shojo's deception wouldn't have been discovered, Miko would not have fallen and would not have destroyed the gate, allowing the martyrs of sapphire guard to end Xykon once for all.

- Yet, Xykon would have been able to seize the gate easily because V killed the Draketooth due to events following the starmetal quest. It would have been Nale's fault according to you :D

- Can't say much about the last one.

Beware the butterfly effect :D

Well, there is a difference. Roy getting starmetal after nale sent him in the woods is a direct consequence. V smoking the dragon and making a pact with the ICC is so indirect that it is just a series of coincidences, it cannot be considered a direct consequence.
On the other hand, I agree that in the case of xykon deciding to spare the order and elan meeting julio scoundrel, the consequences are kinda indirect.
So yes, it probably is mostly a mix of butterfly effect and "what don't kill them makes them stronger". Still, I can easily establish paths were nale's actions directly (if by unforseeable coincidence) resulted in some help for the order, while I cannot do the same for the actions of any other villain.

About the draketoooths: Xykon already knew where to find the pyramid. He's epic level and immune to most illusions. The draketooths were a bunch of mid-level casters, specialized in illusions. They would have lasted 3 rounds. 4, tops. They certainly weren't going to fare better than the sapphire guard.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by King of Nowere View Post
So nale saved the ootsers lives, as well as causing roy to meet celiaYou consider that a good/positive thing?

Well, both roy and celia consider it a good thing. Plus, celia helped with resurrecting roy. If not for her, haley may still be in azurre city with her resistance. or dead.

2) haley got her speech back, and got engaged with elan
WHAT?!:smallconfused:

Maybe I used a wrong term, but I mean that haley and elan got together after the fact.

Flame of Anor

2013-07-30, 07:51 PM

You consider that a good/positive thing?

Well, she can be a bit annoying, but she's not that bad.

Amphiox

2013-07-30, 11:44 PM

Well, by this logic, if Roy had never thrown Xykon into Durokan's booby-trapped gate, Xykon and Redcloak would never have left the tower, never have stumbled onto the Hobgoblins, Redcloak would never have won Supreme Leadership of them, or led them in victorious battle to capture Azure City, and establish Gobbotopia.

So it looks like the OotS ended up helping Team Evil.

DR27

2013-07-30, 11:59 PM

so how much XP does Nale get for defeating Malak?I'd bet he levels as a nemesis. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html)

krossbow7

2013-07-31, 12:15 AM

Yup, you uncovered the secret Plot of the entire comic:

Nale is secretly the Good twin, Elan is the Evil twin hiding behind an act of Idiocy.
Nale just doesn't realize it yet.

Cat Dungeon

2013-07-31, 01:12 AM

Well, she can be a bit annoying, but she's not that bad.

Not that bad?! Because of her, Roy's corpse was turned into a golem and added much frustration to bringing him back to life. Not to mention she seems to be both extremely naive and also simultaneously bright and competent somehow. Not to mention after a certain point I don't believe their relationship: Roy's a fighter - a class completely based around killing or at the very least beating the crap out of people/monsters - and Celia is an extreme pacifist and abhors all forms of violence. I know Roy isn't kill crazy/axe happy, but still once this character trait of Celia was reveled it made me question how this relationship was possible and kind of weakened both characters a little for me (not much, but still a little).

Math_Mage

2013-07-31, 03:50 AM

Not that bad?! Because of her, Roy's corpse was turned into a golem and added much frustration to bringing him back to life.
A little perspective, please? It was Celia who informed Haley about Cloister and got her and Roy out of the city, which was instrumental to Roy getting resurrected at all.

Not to mention she seems to be both extremely naive and also simultaneously bright and competent somehow.
Yes, she is smart, and also naive about adventuring. Which makes sense, when you consider that she isn't an adventurer, she's a lawyer.

Wait, we were discussing why Celia was a bad thing for Roy, right? What does this have to do with that?

Not to mention after a certain point I don't believe their relationship
At the risk of stating the obvious, your beliefs about whether Celia and Roy should have a relationship do not change the fact that they do have one, which both parties have enjoyed greatly. Given your misunderstandings about Celia that I've already pointed out, perhaps you should reevaluate your opinion of their relationship, and make sure it's grounded in facts, rather than bias.

quasit

2013-07-31, 06:29 AM

Not that bad?! Because of her, Roy's corpse was turned into a golem and added much frustration to bringing him back to life. Not to mention she seems to be both extremely naive and also simultaneously bright and competent somehow. Not to mention after a certain point I don't believe their relationship: Roy's a fighter - a class completely based around killing or at the very least beating the crap out of people/monsters - and Celia is an extreme pacifist and abhors all forms of violence. I know Roy isn't kill crazy/axe happy, but still once this character trait of Celia was reveled it made me question how this relationship was possible and kind of weakened both characters a little for me (not much, but still a little).

Nay, in fact she was just an outsider out of his native plane. As anybody from the material plane would have had a hard time traveling the elemtal plane of air, or figuring out the strange cube-shaped geographics of acheron.
She's decently inteligent, that display of errors were about what she knows and what she don't. Having to pull a cart with his boyfriend roting might have had something to do. Also, Haley didn't trust her enought (despite not even being from this plane and thus not even knowing about the Greysky thief guild) to simply tell her the exact reasons why they shouldn't never ever go there and why they'll find no cleric willing to aid them; so Haley's usual paranoia along with Celia's rush to get Roy to full HP ASAP led to the whole Golem thing.

EDIT: Or didn't told her not out of distrust or just for keeping her secret, but for wanting to sleep already without going too vervose about it.

Amphiox

2013-07-31, 07:52 AM

Not that bad?! Because of her, Roy's corpse was turned into a golem and added much frustration to bringing him back to life. Not to mention she seems to be both extremely naive and also simultaneously bright and competent somehow.

The fiasco at Greysky was just as much if not more Haley's fault for failing to take the 30 seconds it would have to explain exactly why having anything to do with the place was a bad idea, for not realizing that Celia needed to have such explanations given to her.

In other words it was a demonstration of her failure as a party leader to properly lead and control her companions, in the same way she could not control Belkar. Which of course is a major thematic point of that whole story arc.

F.Harr

2013-07-31, 01:10 PM

Wait, five whole ROUNDS?

Gift Jeraff

2013-07-31, 01:12 PM

Elan is the real villain.

Cat Dungeon

2013-07-31, 08:25 PM

At the risk of stating the obvious, your beliefs about whether Celia and Roy should have a relationship do not change the fact that they do have one, which both parties have enjoyed greatly.

So do Edward and Bella.:smallwink:

Given your misunderstandings about Celia that I've already pointed out, perhaps you should reevaluate your opinion of their relationship, and make sure it's grounded in facts, rather than bias.

Fact: Celia is a pacifist and abhors the notion of killing (regardless of the alignment of the person/creatures and/or any past crimes they may have committed).
Citation (panel 4&5) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0537.html)
Citation (panel 1) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html)
Citation (2nd to last panel (her expression)) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0603.html)
Citation (panel 3&4) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html)

Fact: Roy is an adventurer with well over 10 levels of fighter and has no problems with taking someone's life and has killed more than enough people to reach his level.
Citation (panel 1) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html)
Citation (last three panels) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html)
Citation (panel 4) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0902.html)
Citation (panel 1) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html)
Citation (panel 3) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0214.html)
Citation (2nd to last panel) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html)

Question: Why would someone that hates the idea of harming others and killing be in a romantic relationship with a trained killer that has no problems with taking a life and has done so many times before?:smallconfused:

archon_huskie

2013-07-31, 10:50 PM

Maybe because he was the knight in blue armor who saved her life, and captured the people who killed her friends and turned her to stone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html).

Maybe she found him really masculine and attractive and asked him out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0308.html).

Maybe she had a near death experience and discovered her boyfriend cheating on her with a dyrad (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0269.html). Making Roy a rebound.

Maybe the date went really "well (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0313.html)."

Maybe their reunion went just as "well (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0665.html)."

In any case, a better love story than The Host.

Cat Dungeon

2013-07-31, 11:28 PM

Maybe because he was the knight in blue armor who saved her life, and captured the people who killed her friends and turned her to stone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html).

Granted, that is a strong argument. If anyone saved my life - especially a member of the opposite sex - there'd be an attraction to them. However, if I later discovered they hated D&D, gaming culture, and the works of Tolkien, I'd be like "Thanks for saving my life. I bake you some cookies sometime, maybe help you move a couch, or move into a new apartment or something like that, but I'm gonna have to take a rain check on any and all future dates."

Maybe she found him really masculine and attractive and asked him out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0308.html).

That's just physical attraction. A relationship has to be based on something more for it to be compelling and for me to care.

Maybe she had a near death experience and discovered her boyfriend cheating on her with a dyrad (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0269.html). Making Roy a rebound.

I think that goes against your argument as to why they're a good couple. Having her trust betrayed, it's very likely she wouldn't be making clear decisions. Maybe she was feeling vulnerable and needed a shoulder to cry on - some sort of validation she isn't worthless - someone to be there to make her feel important and needed. How many strong relationships have actually been formed by a rebound? She wasn't looking for love if you're saying it's just a rebound. She was just looking for someone - most likely anyone - to just be there, to fill the void. In short, making a rash decision isn't love.

Maybe the date went really "well (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0313.html)."

I will admit, when I first read that strip I thought it was really good, one of Rich's best: it subtle and quiet. There's almost no dialogue and still conveys its points which I think it a huge strength in just about all visual mediums. However, looking back just what were they talking about? I imagined they were sharing stories of their lives and past anecdotes, but Roy's been a fighter for the majority of his life.

The reason that strip works so well is because of the notion less is more: we don't know what they're saying and it's just conveyed in body language they're having fun. However, after all of Celia's character development, I actually am curious as to what they were saying. Roy's past as a fighter and the creatures he's killed must have come up at some point on the date, and you don't think Celia would be instantly disgusted, pretended she wasn't feeling well and left the date. Look at how mad she got at Haley after she unintentionally, indirectly, and theoretically killed some random animal. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0540.html)

Not to mention the fact, why would Celia even bother asking Roy out knowing he's a fighter and what he does especially right after she sees him swinging around a big, sharp metal murder stick and he's dressed in battle armor...for battle...battles where he probably kills people? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0308.html)

Maybe their reunion went just as "well (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0665.html)."

Again, just physical attraction.

In any case, a better love story than The Host.

I guess. I haven't read/seen it.

Lorick

2013-07-31, 11:43 PM

Wait, five whole ROUNDS?

Talking is a free action.

Amphiox

2013-08-01, 01:23 AM

Question: Why would someone that hates the idea of harming others and killing be in a romantic relationship with a trained killer that has no problems with taking a life and has done so many times before?:smallconfused:

Because in many ways Celia, at the time she fell in love with Roy, was actually a naive straw-pacifist. She had never actually experienced what it means to take a life, or been in a situation where the option/need to kill was a real-life choice she had to make, nor been in a situation where she had to experience what it feels like to realize that her own life was threatened. (Z turned her to stone by surprise and too quickly for her to even realize what was happened until after she was turned back).

She had also never actually experienced Roy killing anything.

Her pacifism was mostly intellectual. It was easy for her to compartmentalize out the thought that Roy was a Fighter who killed things for a living when their relationship was first getting started.

Afterwards, when she finally got some experience in the realities of life as an adventurer, her bond to Roy was already too strongly established to be shaken, and plus she had some character growth on the issue as a result of that experience.

SowZ

2013-08-01, 01:28 AM

Math_Mage

2013-08-01, 04:20 AM

So do Edward and Bella.:smallwink:
One of the reasons why every love story is better than Twilight is that Edward and Bella don't seem to enjoy their relationship.

Question: Why would someone that hates the idea of harming others and killing be in a romantic relationship with a trained killer that has no problems with taking a life and has done so many times before?:smallconfused:
And the other aspects of your original claim, you're just going to forget they existed, right? Fine.

Since there are marriages between pacifists and soldiers in the real world, I don't think the mere fact of Celia's pacifism and Roy's adventuring makes their relationship impossible.

DeliaP

2013-08-01, 08:31 AM

DeliaP

2013-08-01, 08:48 AM

Question: Why would someone that hates the idea of harming others and killing be in a romantic relationship with a trained killer that has no problems with taking a life and has done so many times before?:smallconfused:

We've actually seen quite a wide spectrum of adventurers attitudes to killing, and the problem with characterising Roy as just a trained killer with no problems taking a life, is that if it is valid for Roy then it is valid across the board.

Belkar is clearly at one end. Probably going in order of decreasing tendency to resort to violence: Varsuvius, Haley, Durkon/Roy, Elan........ and way over on the other end: Celia.

Roy (as shown in OotPCs) might be a trained fighter, but he has chosen non-violent solutions where other adventurers saw no problem with killing.
Also, Roy and Celia actually have a grown up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html) conversation about their different attitudes to violence, where he agrees with Celia that he doesn't even see eye-to-eye with Haley about her willingness to resort to violence.

Sir_Leorik

2013-08-01, 01:50 PM

In any case, [Roy and Celia make for] a better love story than The Host.

That's damning Roy and Celia's relationship with faint praise. :smallyuk:

Sir_Leorik

2013-08-01, 02:06 PM

So do Edward and Bella.:smallwink:

Edward and Bella do not have a healthy relationship. Edward is an abusive jerk, and Bella is a clingy, whiny, co-dependent milksop. Bella brings out the worst in Edward (unlike, say, Buffy, who brought out the best in both Angel and Spike).

Roy and Celia have a healthy relationship based on mutual interests, respect and a shared philosophy (namely they're both Lawful Good).

Fact: Celia is a pacifist and abhors the notion of killing (regardless of the alignment of the person/creatures and/or any past crimes they may have committed).

Fact: Roy is an adventurer with well over 10 levels of fighter and has no problems with taking someone's life and has killed more than enough people to reach his level.

Objection: Roy is not a remorseless killer who solves problems by swinging his sword and asking questions later. He is a Fighter, a class designed to protect weaker classes by wearing heavy armor and using large weapons, but he has solved multiple encounters without resorting to violence, beginning with the Orcs camped outside the town of Nextdoor. Once Roy realized that the Orcs were there to get tickets to the "Iron Golems" concert, he negotiated with their leader, getting the Orcs to stay out of Nextdoor and promise to leave after the concert, in exchange for Roy and Durkon's old party providing the Orcs with snacks and tickets. Roy and his party got full XP for that encounter, without killing anyone.

Question: Why would someone that hates the idea of harming others and killing be in a romantic relationship with a trained killer that has no problems with taking a life and has done so many times before?:smallconfused:

Objection, asked and answered! Roy is not a "trained killer", he is a fighter. He is Lawful Good (like Celia), he defends those in trouble (like Celia), he arranged for Celia to deliver Nale and Thog to jail (something Celia approved of), and he respects her pacifist beliefs.

Celia's not an adventurer, she's a law student (and former Sigil guard). She is also from the Elemental Plane of Air, and thus was not familiar with Greysky City, otherwise she wouldn't have tried going to Grubwriggler. She defended the OotS in court, and without Celia's push, Haley might never have left Azure City.

Finally, I move that the court dismiss this case, citing the precedent of "opposites attract".

quasit

2013-08-01, 03:44 PM

<Snip>

Missed some Hold it! and take that! here and there, but besides that I fully agree. He's a warrior: point. He killed people: ok. But He's not Thog either. She knows He's good-hearted. Also I think celia is probably aware that sometimes, some anvils need to be dropped or swords need to be swung, despite she thinks it's a bad thing and she wouldn't do it less under dire circumbstances.

quasit

2013-08-01, 05:42 PM

Hmm.. I'd go with the fact Malack "remembered the taste of their blood" as a pretty clear reference to the idea that he ate them.

Because, it's to soon to tell how much Durkon lefts inside that shell of flesh, skin, bones and dark energy. At least he ate reciently :smalleek:
(not buying redcloak's "undeads are tools" notion myself, by the way).

Katuko

2013-08-01, 06:57 PM

Because, it's to soon to tell how much Durkon lefts inside that shell of flesh, skin, bones and dark energy. At least he ate reciently :smalleek:
(not buying redcloak's "undeads are tools" notion myself, by the way).

Redcloak would seem to be correct in many ways, for lower levels of undeath. I have always thought of zombies and such as just magically animated servants, not real people, even if they speak. The soul that once inhabited the corpse has passed on. I would think creating a regular zombie would work the same as the Bone Golem created from Roy's body: His soul is still in the afterlife while the body runs around with no special connection to it anymore.

Vampires and liches, however, still retain at least part of their living personality (what hasn't been twisted by forced alignment change and other side-effects) and can still be considered a real person. Notable is that both of these kinds of undead are somehow "marked" before death, either by a vampire's bite or a ritual of sorts. They then rise as undead once the process is complete.

An anomaly here might be the Ancient Black Dragon, which had her head reanimated by a spell, and this dragged her soul out of the afterlife for a while. Could anyone tell me how her reanimation works as far as souls go? I thought creatures made from Animate Dead, Create Undead and Create Greater Undead were separate from the living thing that once owned the body. Or does "create" infer something which "animate" does not? Does any of the Create Greater Undead creatures retain their soul/personality after death? I'm not well versed enough in D&D to be able to say.

Redcloak knows that Xykon keeps his soul, at least, due to the phylactery. He still tells Jirix that he does not think of Xykon as anything but an animated "thing", so I don't know what he actually believes and what he says to keep Jirix aware of the danger.

Redcloak likes to think he is still the one in charge of Team Evil, just in a very careful way. It's because it was he who wanted to go for the gates and the ritual, and it was he who turned Xykon into a Lich after their initial failure. The problem now is that he's not the most powerful caster of the two, and he has to rationalize to himself why he's still doing what he does when things just keep going downhill at every new Gate they try to grab.

I believe Durkon retains much of himself in his vampire form, but the surge of negative energy and the new vampire hunger will make him less pleasant to be around. Durkon will be shifting straight into Lawful Evil now. His friendship with Roy will likely still be there in some form.

quasit

2013-08-02, 05:06 AM

Beats me. I always asumed Darth V's create greater undead was sorta homebrewed into animating a sentient dragon head, didn't dwell on it too much.

Anyhow, while part of his speech if fairly accurate, I saw the part of puppeting lord Xykon as an attemp of self justifying himself in a dangerously delusional way or at least that he's boasting about something he really is not certain of: even after enduring a lot of abuse from him and being outsmarted when not put into submission under treats of grievous harm to him...
and right eye's family. And that without counting how he tricked redcloak into doing his dirtywork for him...he claims so. I'd take his words with grain of salt.

He's right thought, about they no longer being so "human" (or dwarven or lizardfolk) anymore: Xykon lost the sense of taste and that made he even more of a sadist, Malack ate his own siblings, etc... and so each of them became a monster, or in X's case, double monster. In a similar way , Durkon was suddenly cast out of the natural life cicle, ceased to be an living dwarven cleric that cared for the living (less trees) and has been remade into some negative energy fueled creature that lives on blood an entrophy, who needs to cause horrible harm to sentient beings to feed (arguably? ).

So that's why I'm not sure what will he do now.

Cat Dungeon

2013-08-02, 10:54 PM

Spoiled for length:

She had also never actually experienced Roy killing anything.

Her pacifism was mostly intellectual. It was easy for her to compartmentalize out the thought that Roy was a Fighter who killed things for a living when their relationship was first getting started.

When she asked Roy out, Roy was wearing heavy or medium armor and swinging a great sword around (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0308.html), and Celia seriously didn't picture Roy as a killer or someone that takes the lives of others? Not even for a moment? Does Celia have an int of 4 or just an extremely large penalty to spot checks?

Afterwards, when she finally got some experience in the realities of life as an adventurer, her bond to Roy was already too strongly established to be shaken, and plus she had some character growth on the issue as a result of that experience.

:smallconfused:

Are you talking about when she teamed up with Haley to get Roy raised?

And the other aspects of your original claim, you're just going to forget they existed, right? Fine.

I decided to respond to that because I thought it wasn't important enough in establishing why I thought Celia/Roy were a bad couple. To quote you:

Wait, we were discussing why Celia was a bad thing for Roy, right? What does this have to do with that?

Also, I might be wrong, but I feel as though you're vehemently attacking me. In your first post you called bias and said I'm completely ignorant of the facts. Now you're sarcastically calling me out on not addressing something you said shouldn't be addressed. I'm kindly asking you to please stop/tone it done.

Since there are marriages between pacifists and soldiers in the real world, I don't think the mere fact of Celia's pacifism and Roy's adventuring makes their relationship impossible.

Can you name some?

Also, are the pacifist as extreme as Celia. It's not just that she's a pacifist, it's that she is VERY VERY anti-killing. She's at the far end of the extreme. Look at how much she criticized Haley for killing evil people. You think she wouldn't be constantly criticizing Roy as well? She called all adventures “professional murderers.” (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0537.html) Last I checked, Roy’s an adventurer. So…does Celia have a thing for murderers?

Roy and Celia have a healthy relationship based on mutual interests

What interests? We've hardly seen them interact or have any conversations.

respect

You can respect someone and not be romantically attracted to them. Also, Celia respects "professional murderers"? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0537.html)

and a shared philosophy (namely they're both Lawful Good).

Gonna have to stop you there. Lawful Good is not A philosophy. It's made up of several philosophies. There are many ways you can play any alignment, and LG is no different. Two people can share the same alignment and still be radically different. Need I remind you who else was Lawful Good? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0223.html)

Objection: Roy is not a remorseless killer who solves problems by swinging his sword and asking questions later.

Objection: I never said Roy was a "remorseless killer who solves his problems by swinging a sword." What I said was:

Fact: Roy is an adventurer with well over 10 levels of fighter and has no problems with taking someone's life and has killed more than enough people to reach his level.

I said "has no problems with taking someone's life." I never said he enjoys it or doesn't care about life. Roy seeks the nonviolent solution to problems, but he is also fine with simply ending someone's life if the situation calls for it (something Celia loathes).

Objection, asked and answered! Roy is not a "trained killer", he is a fighter.

Okay, NO. Roy is by definition a "trained killer." He is literally a trained killer. He has been trained to kill. He went to a fighter college where he was TRAINED. And as we've seen he has KILLED people/creatures. You want to make an argument about what fighters are and aren't that's fine - if being a fighter is just about killing or also helping people. Yes, you can make a fighter that just protects and is a shield wall. But Roy is an example of a fighter who has been trained to fight and kill. And has done so. He's taken feats to improve his combat abilities (panel 5). (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html) In this strip, his grandfather is literally training him to kill someone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0600.html) (well, I guess technically re-kill:smallwink:). I'm not saying Roy's not a blood thirsty killer, but he is by definition a trained killer.

Porthos

2013-08-02, 11:09 PM

Point of Order: Celia seems to have no problems with the concept of adventurers in the abstract. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html) In fact, she encourages Haley to do some adventuring to raise the funds needed to raise Roy.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/redxiv/celia.gif: So? You're an adventurer. Roam around the countryside a bit and I'm sure some treasure-laden monsters will throw themselves in front of your weapons.

That she is being slightly sarcastic doesn't make the point she was raising invalid from her prespective.

Perhaps, just perhaps, she was a bit stressed out about the whole boyfriend-dead-as-a-doornail-and-its-partially-my-fault thing and was acting a bit crankier than normal.

Plus, traveling around with Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html) is enough to make anyone crankier and liable to say things in a bit more of a curt way than normal. :smallwink:

So, in conclusion, is she a pacifist? Yes. But she is only acting like a militant pacifist when she was put in a situation that she was unfamiliar with, with a dead lover that she desperately wanted to bring back to life, and traveling with a sociopath.

I might not have liked the Celia arc very much (and I am record as not liking it very much at all :smalltongue:), but I am willing to cut her some slack when it comes to her stated words and her relationship with Roy.

==

tl;dr: Context matters in these sorts of things. Perhaps we should see the context in which Celia said all this stuff. Including her state of mind. :smallwink:

Amphiox

2013-08-02, 11:23 PM

Porthos

2013-08-02, 11:39 PM

In fact I would say that this kind of behavior is actually the NORMAL behavior of human beings, and the opposite reaction of complete consistency with stated ideals in all circumstances is the unusual one.

One only has to see her reaction to Roy coming back to life (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0665.html) to see that she has absolutely no problems with him as a person. Including their little philosophical chat they had after putting Roy's new body through its paces (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html).

In fact, killing for the money might be her real problem given her snarky comment about it.

Roy? He doesn't kill for money. Ergo she doesn't have as much problem with him.

Sir_Leorik

2013-08-04, 07:19 PM

When she asked Roy out, Roy was wearing heavy or medium armor and swinging a great sword around (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0308.html), and Celia seriously didn't picture Roy as a killer or someone that takes the lives of others? Not even for a moment? Does Celia have an int of 4 or just an extremely large penalty to spot checks?

She knows he's a Fighter, just like someone dating a soldier or a marine knows in the abstract that soldiers and marines are trained to do unpleasant things. Celia specifically tells Roy that she doesn't understand how someone like Haley can be so blase about taking a life. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html) And Roy agrees with her; neither of them can't fathom caring more about gold than another person's life. The difference is that Roy is pragmatic enough to realize that he can't change Haley, and that for the greater good they need to put aside their differences and work together.

What interests? We've hardly seen them interact or have any conversations.

They went on a date, and while we don't hear their dialogue, they were having a very nice conversation. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0313.html) And after Celia "deflowered" Roy, they had a long heart-to-heart, where they discussed many of the issues raised in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html).

You can respect someone and not be romantically attracted to them. Also, Celia respects "professional murderers"? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0537.html)

Objection: Asked and answered. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html)

Gonna have to stop you there. Lawful Good is not A philosophy. It's made up of several philosophies. There are many ways you can play any alignment, and LG is no different. Two people can share the same alignment and still be radically different. Need I remind you who else was Lawful Good? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0223.html)

This guy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) is also Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html), and he's one of the most beloved minor characters in this strip.

[quote]Objection: I never said Roy was a "remorseless killer who solves his problems by swinging a sword."

Sidebar, your honor?

What I said was:

Fact: Roy is an adventurer with well over 10 levels of fighter and has no problems with taking someone's life and has killed more than enough people to reach his level.

I said "has no problems with taking someone's life." I never said he enjoys it or doesn't care about life. Roy seeks the nonviolent solution to problems, but he is also fine with simply ending someone's life if the situation calls for it (something Celia loathes).

Your honor, counsel is clearly unaware of the approach to awarding Experience Points in D&D 3.X. Experience is awarded for defeating an enemy, monster, trap or hazard. Defeating an enemy or monster does not require killing it, and Roy has been shown multiple times to seek non-violent or non-lethal means of defeating enemies and monsters. He successfully brokered a deal with the Orcs camping outside the town of Nextdoor, which kept them out of the town, and led to their leaving the area after a rock concert. He arranged for Celia to deliver Nale and Thog to the town to face trial and imprisonment. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0072.html) He knocked out bandits using non-lethal attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0163.html), he approved of Durkon disbanding the bandit camp (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0170.html), he left Samantha and her dad unharmed, but tied up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0171.html), since they were technically outside of any legal jurisdiction, he talked the Dwarf assassin out of blowing up an inn full of innocents (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0241.html) (too bad Belkar had to mess everything up), and of course the Hydra (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html). I could keep listing times Roy sought to avoid killing. Counsel will no doubt list all the Goblins that Roy killed in the Dungeon of Dorukan, Samantha's executioner, or Buggy Lou's tribemates. I contend that these examples represent cases of self-defense or defense of others, where there was imminent threat of physical harm, death or slavery.

Okay, NO. Roy is by definition a "trained killer." He is literally a trained killer. He has been trained to kill. He went to a fighter college where he was TRAINED. And as we've seen he has KILLED people/creatures. You want to make an argument about what fighters are and aren't that's fine - if being a fighter is just about killing or also helping people. Yes, you can make a fighter that just protects and is a shield wall. But Roy is an example of a fighter who has been trained to fight and kill. And has done so. He's taken feats to improve his combat abilities (panel 5). (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html) In this strip, his grandfather is literally training him to kill someone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0600.html) (well, I guess technically re-kill:smallwink:). I'm not saying Roy's not a blood thirsty killer, but he is by definition a trained killer.[/spoiler]

My objection is a simple one: Roy was taught how to fight, not how to kill. Fighting covers a wide area, including lethal maneuvers and non-lethal maneuvers. Roy specialized in the use of a greatsword, but he is skilled in unarmed combat as well. Roy learned how to fight in armor, herd goats, and lead others in battle. He did not learn how to efficiently drive a knife between someone's ribs (that would involve taking levels of Rogue or another class that grants Sneak Attack), how to administer poison (he's not an assassin), how to cast Power Word: Kill, Fireball, Disintegrate or Cloudkill (all of which a Wizard can use to kill someone), nor can he cast Slay Living, Destruction or Implosion (all of which a Cleric can use to kill someone). There are lots of ways to kill someone in a D&D game, and Roy was trained in one, single form: melee and ranged combat. Those are, if anything, the least efficient optimized ways to kill someone in D&D 3.5.

Soylent Dave

2013-08-04, 11:22 PM

Granted, that is a strong argument. If anyone saved my life - especially a member of the opposite sex - there'd be an attraction to them. However, if I later discovered they hated D&D [etc.], I'd be like "Thanks for saving my life[,] but I'm gonna have to take a rain check on any and all future dates."

That's just physical attraction. A relationship has to be based on something more for it to be compelling and for me to care.

The first point is that you acknowledge the Celia and Roy and physically attracted to one another.

The second point is that you acknowledge that there are reasons why Celia may be attracted to Roy beyond that - gratitude for saving her life, he's Charismatic etc.

Now you seem to be objecting strenuously because you don't think this enough to hang a serious relationship on.

But Roy and Celia have a very young relationship. They've been 'together' for almost a year - but in that period have barely seen each other.

So - while there's certainly opportunity for Roy's violent job and Celia's pacifism to come between them in the future - they're still very much in their honeymoon period.

Something which has been rather extended by near-death experiences, actual death experiences, resurrections, war etc.

Can you name some [marriages between soldiers and pacifists in the real world]?

I have a close family member who serves in the armed forces - I'm broadly (but not 'Celia level') pacifist, and I don't love him any the less for it.

He's also had one long term (10+ year relationship) very pacifist girlfriend. They did split up, in the end, because he wouldn't leave the army - but that was 'in the end' not 'at the start of their relationship'.

That count?