Moving your soul/mind into a construct

[Yogibear41]

Is their any way for say an artificer to create a golems body, but not animate it with spells yet, then use a spell to transfer his own mind/soul/spirit into the golem thereby effectively making him a golem race, say keeping his mental scores and class abilities, yet gaining the golems HP, physical scores, immunities, and damage reduction, as well as essentially immortality?

[ahenobarbi]

You could fully create the golem then use True Mind Switch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm) to take control of it.

[CaladanMoonblad]

So... you want a variant of the Magic Jar spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicJar.htm)?

I'm not aware of such a thing; most people just build war-forged characters if they want to be a construct.

[Fouredged Sword]

You just need a golem without immunity and magic jar, or a way to get magic jar SR no.

[ahenobarbi]

IIRC a golem can lower it's spell immunity so that's not a problem. And yes, as others pointed out Magic Jar would work too if if prefer to recasting lower level spell over using high-level power once.

[Yogibear41]

we have the non-magical psionics in place in our game so I'm pretty sure psionic abilities would go through the golems magic immunity.

Hmm, I suppose I could go psionic artificer and then create my own psionic scroll of that power eventually, or w/e the equivalent of psionic scrolls are can't remeber the name atm.

Is their anything preventing a normal artificer from creating psionic scrolls? or rather magic scrolls from psionic powers.

[DementedFellow]

For what it's worth there is a prestige class out there that allows you to slowly become a warforged.

[Yogibear41]

For what it's worth there is a prestige class out there that allows you to slowly become a warforged.

Yes, I am aware of the renegade mastermaker, but compare that to a person strolling around in a clay golems body, with all its immunities, that still has full casting.

[ahenobarbi]

we have the non-magical psionics in place in our game so I'm pretty sure psionic abilities would go through the golems magic immunity.

Hmm, I suppose I could go psionic artificer and then create my own psionic scroll of that power eventually, or w/e the equivalent of psionic scrolls are can't remeber the name atm.

Is their anything preventing a normal artificer from creating psionic scrolls? or rather magic scrolls from psionic powers.

He can't do it directly - he can only emulate spells needed to create item, not powers. However you can create item of wish and use the wish to create item that will manifest psionic power for you.

[ArqArturo]

Yes, I am aware of the renegade mastermaker, but compare that to a person strolling around in a clay golems body, with all its immunities, that still has full casting.

I don't remember in which book, or if it was online, but there is a golem that is mainly comprised of treasure.

Is it powerful? Not really, but it does have Engulf

Is it broken? Nope.

Is it Cheezy? Not really

Would it be fun to play as a walking pile of bling-bling? Hells yeah :smallcool:.

[Psyren]

You could fully create the golem then use True Mind Switch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm) to take control of it.

TMS is mind-affecting so that won't work.


So... you want a variant of the Magic Jar spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicJar.htm)?


You just need a golem without immunity and magic jar, or a way to get magic jar SR no.

You also need a way to make it permanent - if you walk too far from your body and the spell ends or is dispelled, you will die instantly.

[Yogibear41]

He can't do it directly - he can only emulate spells needed to create item, not powers. However you can create item of wish and use the wish to create item that will manifest psionic power for you.


Wish is powerful enough in the game I play in that if I have access to it I can basically skip every other step, (well potentially) Please don't let that stop you from posting suggestions though, never know when the DM might just say no though lol.


If you awakened the golem first TMS would work then correct?

Nvm TMS only works on living creatures. :(

[ahenobarbi]

TMS is mind-affecting so that won't work.

IIRC golem is free to lower it's immunity.


If you awakened the golem first TMS would work then correct?

Nvm TMS only works on living creatures. :(

not a problem - Polymorph Any Object it into cat, true mind switch while it's polymorphed, you stay when PAO ends.

[Yogibear41]

He can't do it directly - he can only emulate spells needed to create item, not powers. However you can create item of wish and use the wish to create item that will manifest psionic power for you.

What item would you create to manifest a 9th level power?

[Psyren]

IIRC golem is free to lower it's immunity.

You can lower SR; not sure about spell immunity, but what I'm actually referring to is the mind-affecting immunity conferred by the Construct type. Nothing in the golem entry indicates they can override this.

[Aharon]

TMS is mind-affecting so that won't work.

You also need a way to make it permanent - if you walk too far from your body and the spell ends or is dispelled, you will die instantly.

@TMS:
Rip Ability from Serpent Kingdoms, Capstone of Knowledge Devotion Affiliation can both remove immunity to mind-affecting.

@Permanent Magic Jar
Debatable, but the trick by Doc Roc used here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-154844.html) (search for Magic Jar Trick for a description) might work. It's a bit shaky because the wording of Magic Jar is rather convoluted, but some DMs I know ruled it works.

[Feytalist]

I feel like you're missing something basic.

Just be a Green Star Adept.

:smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

@TMS:
Rip Ability from Serpent Kingdoms, Capstone of Knowledge Devotion Affiliation can both remove immunity to mind-affecting.

Isn't Ability Rip Su only? Construct mind-affecting immunity is a natural ability (type/racial.)

[Yuki Akuma]

I feel like you're missing something basic.

Just be a Green Star Adept.

:smallbiggrin:

Artificers don't qualify for that class and it's awful anyway. Don't be a Green Star Adept.

[Psyren]

Just be a RMM with mind blank and death ward up.

[Urpriest]

You can lower SR; not sure about spell immunity, but what I'm actually referring to is the mind-affecting immunity conferred by the Construct type. Nothing in the golem entry indicates they can override this.

If Elves can lower their immunity to sleep, golems should be able to lower their immunity to mind-affecting. I've forgotten precisely where the text is on that, but there's some very sloppy wording that essentially suggests that any immunity whatsoever can be lowered.

That said, Tippy has done this sort of thing (with a Shadesteel Golem, naturally). He'll probably pop up here to explain it in a bit.

[Aharon]

Isn't Ability Rip Su only? Construct mind-affecting immunity is a natural ability (type/racial.)

You're right, I meant Trait Removal (same book, also affects extraordinary, which, IIRC, natural abilities Default to). It has SR, so you Need (su) casting to use it on a golem.

[Psyren]

I don't see where it says elves can suppress their sleep immunity either, but that's moot - the immunity is due to creature type, not race. It would be like an ooze or vermin suppressing their mind-affecting immunity, they have to become something else entirely to do it.


You're right, I meant Trait Removal (same book, also affects extraordinary, which, IIRC, natural abilities Default to). It has SR, so you Need (su) casting to use it on a golem.

How do natural abilities "default to" something else? They're their own category.

[ahenobarbi]

You can lower SR; not sure about spell immunity, but what I'm actually referring to is the mind-affecting immunity conferred by the Construct type. Nothing in the golem entry indicates they can override this.

That's why polymorph any object :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

That spell is SR: Yes and I still don't see where golems can lower either of their immunities.

Not trying to be Buzz Killington over here but we need some citations people!

[Aharon]

How do natural abilities "default to" something else? They're their own category.

And once again you're right. I'm AFB and misremembered the whole Thing, since it is quite convoluted.

The Affiliation ability should still work, I think it wasn't limited to typed abilities. Will look it up later.

ETA:
Yep, it should work.

Scholar: Once per day, negate a single
ability of an enemy creature that you've discovered using a successful Knowledge check. This effect lasts for 1 minute and is a supernatural ability. The creature can attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + your character level + your Int modifier) to negate this effect.

[Emperor Tippy]

Step 1: Get the Golem that you want.
Step 2: Get a Skin Of Proteus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinofProteus).
Step 3: Get a Power Stone of True Mind Switch.
Step 4: Have the Golem use the Skin of the Proteus to become a human, it now has no immunities and is a living creature.
Step 5: Use the Power Stone to True Mind Switch with the golem (which is now a valid target).
Step 6: Remove the Skin so that the golem body reverts back to a Golem body.

Step 7: Party as you are now a golem.

[Psyren]

^ Yep, as I said - "become something else entirely."

One issue though - only a Medium-sized golem can use a psychoactive skin. None of the core golems are Medium. (Shadesteels are medium IIRC.)

[ksbsnowowl]

You also need a way to make [magic jar] permanent - if you walk too far from your body and the spell ends or is dispelled, you will die instantly.
There is a magic item worn by one of the bad guys in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft that made his Magic Jar spell effectively permanent. It was an amulet of some type.

[unseenmage]

That spell is SR: Yes and I still don't see where golems can lower either of their immunities.

Not trying to be Buzz Killington over here but we need some citations people!

From the Dungeon Master's Guide page 298,
"A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. Doing so is
a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Once a creature lowers its resistance, it remains down until the
creature’s next turn. At the beginning of the creature’s next turn,
the creature’s spell resistance automatically returns unless the
creature intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that
does not provoke an attack of opportunity).
A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells,
items, or abilities."

From the Monster Manual page 315,
"Spell Immunity (Ex): A creature with spell immunity avoids
the effects of spells and spell-like abilities that directly affect it.
This works exactly like spell resistance, except that it cannot be
overcome. Sometimes spell immunity is conditional or applies to
only spells of a certain kind or level. Spells that do not allow spell
resistance are not affected by spell immunity."

And there you go, Magic Immune = SR infinite and SR can be voluntarily lowered. Someone please correct me if these are the wrong examples.

[Yogibear41]

1. Craft Scroll of Polymorph any object at level 13 (caster level 15)
2. Craft Iron Golem at level 14, (normally requires level 16 but artificer gets +2 on effective level)
3. Craft a scroll of Wish at level 15(caster level 17)
4. Use scroll of wish to wish for a power stone of true mind switch
5. Find a way to make a use psionic device check of 37 without fail in order to activate power stone
6. Command Golem to lower its spell resistance
7. Cast polymorph any object turning it temporarily into say a cat(20 minutes or so)
8. Use Psionic Device check of 37 to activate power stone thereby switching minds with the cast.
9. Wait out the remaining time on polymorph any object then enjoy my new life as a near magic immune iron golem.
10. Find a way to not die a horrible death vs. Rust Monsters and other like creatures and spells. (perhaps I should move this to number 1)

11. Perhaps craft another scroll of wish, and wish that I was made of Adamantine instead of Iron?


How does this look?

[Darrin]

One issue though - only a Medium-sized golem can use a psychoactive skin. None of the core golems are Medium. (Shadesteels are medium IIRC.)

A Glyph Seal or Skull Talisman with aspect of the wolf (Spell Compendium) or essence of the dragon (RotD) could change the creature type of the larger golems to something else.

[unseenmage]

1. Craft Scroll of Polymorph any object at level 13 (caster level 15)
2. Craft Iron Golem at level 14, (normally requires level 16 but artificer gets +2 on effective level)
3. Craft a scroll of Wish at level 15(caster level 17)
4. Use scroll of wish to wish for a power stone of true mind switch
5. Find a way to make a use psionic device check of 37 without fail in order to activate power stone
6. Command Golem to lower its spell resistance
7. Cast polymorph any object turning it temporarily into say a cat(20 minutes or so)
8. Use Psionic Device check of 37 to activate power stone thereby switching minds with the cast.
9. Wait out the remaining time on polymorph any object then enjoy my new life as a near magic immune iron golem.
10. Find a way to not die a horrible death vs. Rust Monsters and other like creatures and spells. (perhaps I should move this to number 1)

11. Perhaps craft another scroll of wish, and wish that I was made of Adamantine instead of Iron?


How does this look?

If it were me I'd stash an, 'Apply Sacred Guardian Template to gain better mental stats and superpowers', in there somewhere right in between making the golem and applying the mind switch.

[ksbsnowowl]

1. Craft Scroll of Polymorph any object at level 13 (caster level 15)
2. Craft Iron Golem at level 14, (normally requires level 16 but artificer gets +2 on effective level)
3. Craft a scroll of Wish at level 15(caster level 17)
4. Use scroll of wish to wish for a power stone of true mind switch
5. Find a way to make a use psionic device check of 37 without fail in order to activate power stone
6. Command Golem to lower its spell resistance
7. Cast polymorph any object turning it temporarily into say a cat(20 minutes or so)
8. Use Psionic Device check of 37 to activate power stone thereby switching minds with the [cat].
9. Wait out the remaining time on polymorph any object then enjoy my new life as a near magic immune iron golem.
10. Find a way to not die a horrible death vs. Rust Monsters and other like creatures and spells. (perhaps I should move this to number 1)

11. Perhaps craft another scroll of wish, and wish that I was made of Adamantine instead of Iron?


How does this look?

A scroll of Divine Insight (+15 to any skill check) would likely be of use here.

[Yogibear41]

If it were me I'd stash an, 'Apply Sacred Guardian Template to gain better mental stats and superpowers', in there somewhere right in between making the golem and applying the mind switch.

Thats Pathfinder isn't it? Anway I keep my own mental stats when using the mind switch, so I don't think a template like that would give me the boost, but I am unfamiliar with that particular one so I could be wrong



A scroll of Divine Insight (+15 to any skill check) would likely be of use here.

Thank you good sir, first time playing an artificer or really a caster at all for that matter so little things like that might escape me thanks. :smallsmile:

Is there a feat that would allow me to make it a class skill? Even with that scroll and assuming only a 20 int (starting 18+2 for levels) with cross class skills maxed at level 15 I would still only have a +29 or so, and with all the work I will have to put into this to make it work I really don't want to lose it all due to one botched roll.

[unseenmage]

Thats Pathfinder isn't it? Anway I keep my own mental stats when using the mind switch, so I don't think a template like that would give me the boost, but I am unfamiliar with that particular one so I could be wrong




Thanks you good sir, first time playing an artificer or really a caster at all for that matter so little things like that might escape me thanks. :smallsmile:

It's Dragonlance Bestiary of Krynn but it does have the WotC seal so it's official 3.5 material, but more like Dragon/Dungeon than core.

It gives Fast Healing (retained), 3 languages (replaced by your own), a list of Spell Likes based on the Deity of the creator (retained), and boosts mental stats (yeah they'll switch but why not have a friendly intelligent buddy instead of a golem-brained deadhead?). And I'm sure I'm forgetting something else they get. Probably DR.

[Yogibear41]

Looking at it now, when I mind switch I don't gain the SU qualaties of the creature, only the EX so I would not gain the divine grace, the changed Damage reduction, or the fast healing, but I should gain the increased Str and Dex, as well as the increased damage dice on its natural attacks. However, in the game I play in one does not simply get to do things just because they are in a book, it must fit, and I don't really think my guy is going to be that much into religion and such so the template will likely not fly. I'm probably going to hvae a hard enough time with things like how do you know that exists? and how do you know how to make that? when crafting scrolls/golem/powerstone to complete this plan as normal.

[Psyren]

Well, I can see where that could be applied to spell immunity, but not where it could be applied to mind-affecting immunity. Polymorphing the golem would help with that (e.g. via Tippy's Proteus suggestion) but that also limits the golems you can use this trick with.

[unseenmage]

Looking at it now, when I mind switch I don't gain the SU qualaties of the creature, only the EX so I would not gain the divine grace, the changed Damage reduction, or the fast healing, but I should gain the increased Str and Dex, as well as the increased damage dice on its natural attacks. However, in the game I play in one does not simply get to do things just because they are in a book, it must fit, and I don't really think my guy is going to be that much into religion and such so the template will likely not fly. I'm probably going to hvae a hard enough time with things like how do you know that exists? and how do you know how to make that? when crafting scrolls/golem/powerstone to complete this plan as normal.

For our game it fit with my character perfectly so I'm sorry you have to miss out.

As to how you know about it, I took to whipping out a parchment and quill every time we encountered a new creature so I could draw up a rough draft of Effigy Template blueprints for it. Later I'd spend a week making those blueprints into a functional art piece.

We instituted a research system like wizards get for new spells. 1,000gp per CL, 1 week per Cl, and 10+CL Spellcraft DC to learn new construct types.

Edit: We used the same system for custom magic items too.

[ksbsnowowl]

Well, I can see where that could be applied to spell immunity, but not where it could be applied to mind-affecting immunity. Polymorphing the golem would help with that (e.g. via Tippy's Proteus suggestion) but that also limits the golems you can use this trick with.Why not just use the aforementioned Polymorph Any Object after getting the golem to lower its SR?

[unseenmage]

Well, I can see where that could be applied to spell immunity, but not where it could be applied to mind-affecting immunity. Polymorphing the golem would help with that (e.g. via Tippy's Proteus suggestion) but that also limits the golems you can use this trick with.

There's always the ever popular Greater Humanoid Essence infusion off the Artificer's spell list. Makes the construct targettable by spells that could normally target Humanoids. One could exploit the vague wording to allow those spells to bypass mind-affecting immunity or the "living target" clause, But I'd call cheese on that.

[Yogibear41]

Well, I can see where that could be applied to spell immunity, but not where it could be applied to mind-affecting immunity. Polymorphing the golem would help with that (e.g. via Tippy's Proteus suggestion) but that also limits the golems you can use this trick with.


By polymorphing it into a cat, it gains a mind which is twofold first it has to have a mind to mind switch with, second a golem immunity to mind-affecting abilities usually stems from the fact that is has no mind to effect, so becoming a cat or any creature with a mind for that matter gives it a mind so it loses its immunity. Even if that was not the case, I'm pretty sure that while polymorphed it loses its special qualaties anyway.