Shivering Touch Arrows?

[kellbyb]

So, these would be arrows that, when they hit their target, would immediately discharge a maximised Shivering Touch. I have two questions about this.

a. Would this be legal by RaW?

b. if so, I calculated the cost to be 6 x 11 x 50 = 3,300. Would this be a single arrow or 50?

[Snowbluff]

a. No idea. This is why Arcane Archer and Spellstoring Arrows exist. If you though one Shivering Touch was bad, imagine 2.

b. That would be for one arrow.

[kellbyb]

a. I'd imagine it is possible. I didn't go with spell storing because it only holds up to third-level spells (so no maximize in there) and I never play elves.

b. I was guessing that would be the case, bu wasn't 100% sure.

[ericgrau]

Instead of maximizing one shivering touch it would be simpler to spam several cheaper arrows of regular shivering touch. Maximized shivering touch can still be useful, but only when you're high enough level that you can afford to pop 16,500 gp and spam 5 arrows of it per round like it's no big deal. Or if limited to 1 arrow per round (see below)

You would need a loose reading of spell storing or a way to change shivering touch into an area spell so it works with arcane archer. Or some custom rules that charge a little extra for making it a ranged effect, and possibly a big extra charge for making it rapid fire. And it would be reasonable for a 3rd level spell. The abusive part is still the spell itself.

[Snowbluff]

a1. Well, that's why their is a bite sized lesser version.

a2. A spellstoring Arrow of Lahm's Finger Darts might work. Rather than maximizing, the held spell is just a high CL.

a3. I am not sure if MM counts for stored spells.

[Curmudgeon]

a) I don't see any path to a legal version of this. Spell Storing won't work, for two reasons:

You can only cast the spell from a weapon when you're wielding it. An arrow, once fired, isn't wielded.
There's no magic in the arrow once it strikes the target.
Magic Ammunition and Breakage

When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, shuriken, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or otherwise is rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, bullet, or shuriken that hits is destroyed.
Magic items, unless otherwise noted, take damage as nonmagical items of the same sort. A damaged magic item continues to function, but if it is destroyed, all its magical power is lost.
The Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow only works on area spells. Shivering Touch requires you to touch the enemy.

[Tvtyrant]

You could make it a ranged attack with some shenanigans. Duskblade channeling and Bloodstorm Blade to make a melee attack at range with it.

[Snowbluff]

The destruction of the Arrow and it's triggering are the result of the action.

Wielder in this case would be the one who dictates authority over the object, much like a Spell Storing Throwing Axe.

[Deophaun]

Magic Ammunition and Breakage

When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, shuriken, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or otherwise is rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, bullet, or shuriken that hits is destroyed.
A magic tile (Complete Arcane) is so close to working for this. You just need to hit the target in the hand (Called shot! Boo!)

[Curmudgeon]

Wielder in this case would be the one who dictates authority over the object, much like a Spell Storing Throwing Axe.
Sorry, but that "authority" definition isn't the best fit for wielder (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wielder?s=t&path=/) of a weapon.
2. to use (a weapon, instrument, etc.) effectively; handle or employ actively. Once it's out of your hands, you're not handling or employing it actively; your actions cannot affect the magic item. If you throw an axe at someone with Snatch Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#snatchArrows) they become the wielder, regardless of your desires. Nor do you have any "authority" over the axe; they can use it to chop you and cast the spell on you, and there's nothing you can do to keep that axe from functioning for them.

[Saintheart]

The Runecaster out of the Forgotten Realms could do this very cheaply.

Here's the quick costs for a rune, out of Chapter 3, FRCS:

One Charge Rune = Spell level X caster level X 50gp
Multiple Charge Rune = Spell level X caster level X charges X 50gp
Charges Per Day = Spell level X caster level X charges X 400gp
Permanent = Spell level X caster level X 2000gp

Modifiers
Works when touched = Base cost
Works when read of passed (within 30ft) = Base cost X2

A single object of Medium size or smaller can hold one rune. That would include an arrowhead. A rune can contain any spell the Runecaster can cast. No restrictions on touch, reach, personal, etc. And Shivering Touch is a cleric 3 spell, so you don't even need to perform Archivist or Extra Spell shenanigans to access the spell for the Runecaster.

The cost of an arrowhead inscribed with a rune of Shivering Touch, single charge, at a minimum CL of 5, would give you 50 gp x 3 x 5 = 750 gp per arrow.

Launch the arrow. The rune is activated by touch, so the arrow doesn't need to penetrate the target's armour and natural armour. Hence, if the shot makes the target's touch AC, the rune on the arrowhead necessarily has "touched" the target and the rune triggers. Shivering Touch. Done. And it totally fits with Zen Archery concepts since the Runecaster is a divine-based caster.

EDIT: It's scarily cheap if you use the Lesser Shivering Touch version of the spell. Then the cost becomes 50 gp x 1 x 1 = 50 gp per arrow. 50 arrows = 2,500. Sir, would you like a +1 weapon, or 50 arrows that each smack 1d6 DEX off a target with no save and which don't require you to hit much more than the broad side of a barn with a bull bass fiddle?

EDIT THE SECOND: Hell, for 100 gp per arrow you could completely miss the target or just aim at a square (AC 5) within 30 feet and get the same effect. A "rune triggers whenever passed" arrow is double the cost of a touch-activated one: 50 gp x1 [Spell Level] x1 [CL] x2 = 100 gp per arrow. Per the FRCS, a Runecaster can set a "triggers when passed" rune to key on "almost any" conditions the runecaster specifies with a few minor exceptions: "triggers when passed while being fired from an arrow if the target of the arrow is unharmed by the arrow?"

EDIT THE THIRD: Oh, and that whole 'I need to Maximise the Shivering Touch?' thing? A Runecaster can do that at no increase to spell level at all, only a slightly higher Craft check.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Spell-Storing is a melee weapon enhancement. It would only work on arrows if you used them as an improvised melee weapon, not as ammo.

[Curmudgeon]

Spell-Storing is a melee weapon enhancement. It would only work on arrows if you used them as an improvised melee weapon, not as ammo.
Not even then. Improvised use doesn't alter the "destroyed on hit" behavior of arrows, and once it's destroyed the magic is gone.

[animewatcha]

If you want to launch arrows of <insert touch spell here>, why not use splitting bow with wand of arrowsplit?

[Snowbluff]

Sorry, but that "authority" definition isn't the best fit for wielder (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wielder?s=t&path=/) of a weapon. Once it's out of your hands, you're not handling or employing it actively; your actions cannot affect the magic item. If you throw an axe at someone with Snatch Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#snatchArrows) they become the wielder, regardless of your desires. Nor do you have any "authority" over the axe; they can use it to chop you and cast the spell on you, and there's nothing you can do to keep that axe from functioning for them.

SO you aren't using an arrow you are shooting at someone. Got it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Not even then. Improvised use doesn't alter the "destroyed on hit" behavior of arrows, and once it's destroyed the magic is gone.

Destroyed items can't do damage either. Presumably, it hits, deals damage, inflicts the spell, then breaks. Assuming you use it as a melee weapon.

[Averis Vol]

its not exactly an item of shivering touch, but the smiting spell feat from PHBII.


SMITING SPELL
You can channel the energy of a touch spell into a weapon,
causing the spell to discharge when you strike an opponent.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +1, caster level 1st.
Benefit: You can alter a spell with a range of touch to
transfer its energy from your hand to a weapon that you
hold. The next time you strike an opponent with that
weapon, the spell discharges. The target takes the normal
damage and effects of a successful attack in addition to
the spell’s effect. Once you place a spell into a weapon,
you must discharge it within 1 minute, or its energy dissipates
harmlessly.
You can place a smiting spell on a piece of ammunition or a
projectile, such as a sling bullet, an arrow, or a crossbow bolt.
In such a case, the spell dissipates if the attack misses. The
spell cannot be placed on a bow, crossbow, sling, or similar
weapon that uses ammunition.
A smiting spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than
the spell’s actual level.

so, yea, theres that.

[animewatcha]

*uses Smiting Shivering Touch on the moon that me and the hurling hurler are totally holding at the same time just before I let go and he hurls it*

[ericgrau]

That 1 minute time limit is quite a pain though. Makes it hard enough to get 1 arrow ready before the fight, let alone a volley. Time stop could work, but that's a bit high level.

[Feytalist]

The Runecaster out of the Forgotten Realms could do this very cheaply.

This post.


When you really get down to what a Runecaster can do, it gets really scary really quickly.

[Curmudgeon]

Destroyed items can't do damage either. Presumably, it hits, deals damage, inflicts the spell, then breaks. Assuming you use it as a melee weapon.
You've arranged this as a sequence which fits your desires, but it doesn't work that way by the RAW.
When your attack succeeds, you deal damage.
Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless All of this is simultaneous: hitting, doing damage, being destroyed.
Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires. A free action can cause Spell Storing to discharge immediately (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/immediately?s=t&path=/) ("without lapse of time"), but not simultaneously (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/simultaneously?&path=/) ("at the same time"). Immediately following destruction of the magic is still too late.

[JaronK]

First, Spell Storing is not melee only. It's only randomly found on melee weapons according to the DMG table, but remember that text trumps table and the text doesn't have any such restriction.

Second, the idea that a magic arrow doesn't use up its magic before being destroyed is silly. Does a +5 arrow not get to do 5 more damage on hit? Is there any example of any rule anywhere that shows an enchantment on an arrow not getting to use its full effect before being destroyed? Ever? No, of course not. Note that there are plenty of magic effects (and non magic) that can go specifically on an arrow and trigger after a hit (poison, for example, or the prismatic enchantment).

JaronK

[Lord Vukodlak]

A free action can cause Spell Storing to discharge immediately ("without lapse of time"), but not simultaneously ("at the same time"). Immediately following destruction of the magic is still too late.

Actually without lapse of time can be taken to mean simultaneously, any microsecond afterwards would be a lapse of time and potentially disqualify it from being immediately depending how anal one is being on definitions.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You've arranged this as a sequence which fits your desires, but it doesn't work that way by the RAW. All of this is simultaneous: hitting, doing damage, being destroyed. A free action can cause Spell Storing to discharge immediately (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/immediately?s=t&path=/) ("without lapse of time"), but not simultaneously (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/simultaneously?&path=/) ("at the same time"). Immediately following destruction of the magic is still too late.

Wasn't there a little rule that says that when things occur simultaneously, they are applied in the order most beneficial to the player? See also: Metamagic shenanigans.

[Curmudgeon]

Actually without lapse of time can be taken to mean simultaneously, any microsecond afterwards would be a lapse of time and potentially disqualify it from being immediately depending how anal one is being on definitions.
There doesn't need to be any lapse of time for events to not be simultaneous. A TV broadcast of 1 hour, immediately followed by a broadcast of ½ hour, would illustrate the point: there is no lapse of time, but these shows are not simultaneous.
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort, and over the span of the round, their impact is so minor that they are considered free. The very small amount of time a free action takes would need to start immediately after the arrow was destroyed; naturally, that's too late.