Caster/CoDzilla "fix"

[DM7581]

Hello all,

I am ever-pursuing a more balanced (or more fair system). In an attempt to knock casters down to Tier 3, I am working on the following changes:

Cleric:
-lose heavy armor proficiency
-follow the Bard's spell progression (yes, only up to level 6 spells)
-gain proficiency with deity's favored weapon

Druid:
-follow the Bard's spell progression

Wizard:
-implement a number of maximum spells known, either by spell level or by a combined number of spell levels (INT mod/spell level, INT mod per level number of total spells known, or a system that incorporates a total number of spell levels known using the key ability modifier

Utilization of the UA Spell Points system, including the rules for spontaneous divine casters, with two exceptions: (1) casters must spend spell points equal to the caster level of the spell being cast (this will effect and vaty damage, range, duration, etc.). 0-level spells are free to cast (individual spells will be limited, such as cure minor wounds to only be able to affect a single creature once per day). (2) Casters will now rely on 2 stats for casting. Wisdom will help determine Spell Point totals while INT/CHA will determine spell power (save DCs). Divine casters will now use CHA, while the Wiz/Sor will remain mostly the same.

New Class(es): Priest (may be standard or druidic in nature)
-d6 HD
-Wizard's BAB, Skill Point, and Save progression
-Turn Undead as Cleric
-Light armor and simple weapon proficiency
-Wizard's spell progression
-Gain bonus feats as Wizard, but may select an additional Domain (up to the maximum represented by the deity) or any Divine Feat OR follow the Druid's class progression for special abilities

This system limits a little utility of the Wizard, Cleric, and Druid but introduces a more spell-focused divine class, the Priest, if anyone really wants to play a full divine caster.

Comments/feedback?

[Grod_The_Giant]

The cleric gets dropped to T3, sure-- 6th level casting will put you right there, no problem.

The druid is still 3 classes (caster, wild shape, and animal companion), but at least two of those are T3 now, instead of a T1 and a T3. Maybe also require them to use the Shapeshift variant from the PHB 2 instead of Wild Shape, and give them an "animal companion" that upgrades as a familiar-- that's what I like to do.

As long as it gets 9th level spells, the wizard won't be shoved below T2. I'd also be careful of limiting spells/day too much and turning him into an Int-based sorcerer.

The new "priest" re-introduces all the issues of high-tier divine casters, though. If you want a more controlled full divine caster, how 'bout if they can pick 5 of their deity's domains, and know all the spells from their selected domains and cast spontaneously?

[erikun]

Cleric and Druid seem to be dropped to T3, what with the weaker spell progression. I'm not sure why you're taking away the Cleric's heavy armor proficiency, especially with leaving the Druid's Wildshape/Animal Companion the same and since even a Cleric in medium armor makes Fighters looks like a joke.

Wizard seems like it's been turned into a Sorcerer, which would make it around T2. Priest looks almost identical to the Cloistered Cleric, if not better, which is T1.

I am not sure what you mean by "casters must spend spell points equal to the caster level of the spell being cast" for the spell point variant. Are you talking about augmenting spell points similar to how psionics works? If so, then you'd want to likely boost the number of SP given to a class - the tables assume that casters will not be augmenting all their spells to the equilivant of their highest spell level.

[DM7581]

I figure that if someone wants a tank divine caster they go Paladin. War Domain would include heavy armor proficiency though (since all Clerics get the weapon proficiency). Also, at lower levels, I do not think that a Cleric under this system would make a Fighter look like a joke. Armor/AC? Fighter. BAB? Fighter. Spells (limited progression)? Cleric. HP? Fighter (slightly). This evens them out at least a little bit (until the Cleric gets really good spells, but by then, the Fighter better have at least 2 solid Feat trees worked out) and makes the cleric more like the Basic D&D/2e version (slower spell progression and max spell level lower than the Wizard).

I know that the Wizard is hit a bit, but it does not use the Sorcerer mechanic per se. He still needs to prepare spells, but he now has a limited number of spells that he can learn (as it was in 2e, except in the case of very high INT). What hopefully drops him, and everyone else, another tier is the way the UA spell point system works, especially with the way I've outlined its quirks. Now that WIS is required by all classes (as well with either INT or CHA), casting a spell takes a lot more of the available points and these points will go by fast. Take a Wizard at level 20 with 20 INT/WIS. He will have 258 SP, which means that if he is casting at maximum caster level (to get the most out of metamagic feats, spell damage, duration, etc.) for each spell, he will be wasted after casting around 12 spells (he will have to compromise on some spells not lasting too long to stretch his allotment). Even if his INT gets ridiculously high (which it often times does), he now also has to invest into his WIS to gain more SP, making him a bit more MAD and less SAD. This is done on purpose to drastically reduce overall spell power. Sure a Wizard/Priest/Sorcerer still has access to the most powerful spells, but it takes a lot out of them to use these spells (or even powerful "versions" of weaker spells). The proposed balancing aspect here is that while the Fighter/Barbarian continues to swing away, the caster now needs to mind their resources as to not be left without any spells (which may happen early on, but rarely at higher levels).

I'm not sure how the Priest looks better than a standard Cleric except for the additional domains. He has little to no combat ability (including AC), much less HP, and the spell casting dynamic affects him as much as anyone else, reducing his overall spell power just the same. Remember that the Priest too will have a limited spells known list (like the Wizard, but CHA-based), so he shouldn't be another Batman running around the battle field, but more of a domain-specific divine caster. I still need to work on how to balance the extra domains spells into his regular spells known list. If a Priest has 5 domains, that is an extra 5 spells per spell level known (in addition to his normal array of cleric spells), which may throw this balancing act way off base.

Regarding the Druid, yes he still is a 3-in-1 class, but 3-3 Tiers doesn't equal a 2 Tier. I may consider tweaking his class abilities, making the more powerful ones exclusive to the Druidic Priest class (which is a problem in itself, as he is a full caster already). This (as well as the retooled Wizard) reminds me of the Dread Necromancer (classified as a T3) who also gets 9th level spells, but is narrowly focused. That is my goal with other full casters: narrow their focus if I can (it is difficult for a non-specialist Wizard) by not allowing them access to every spell ever published (hence the limited list of known spells), while letting the modified spell point variant make casting spells a bit more cumbersome.

I appreciate the feedback and I am making some notes and changes to my current game. Thanks for the help!

[nonsi]

The problem with full casters is not so much the spell level as the ability to abuse the action economy and step over the toes of everyone else.
You don't really need to drop them to T3 to balance them out.

1. Ban the application of more than a single metamagic per round.
2. Ban DMM.
3. Ban Natural Spell, or at least put a harsh spell-level cap on it.
4. Use the Shapeshift variant.
5. Apply a 3-level delay (or 4-level category dropdown) on Animal Companion

And yes, clerics losing heavy armor is definitely a step in the right direction.


There are infinite possibilities for changing the core rules, but the above will yield you the most with the least amount of effort.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The problem with full casters is not so much the spell level as the ability to abuse the action economy and step over the toes of everyone else.
Strongly disagree. I mean, yes, action economy abuse is a big thing, but the real difference is in how effective those actions are. A high-level fighter says "I full attack you for a bunch of damage. Unless you're out of reach, or are flying, or have a miss chance, or DR, or..." A high-level wizard says "save or lose." The ability to end or bypass entire encounters with one or two spells is why casters rule the system.