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View Full Version : [3.5] Swift Ambushing Monk/Rogue? - NEW QUESTION



A.A.King
2013-07-30, 02:48 PM
I wanted to make a Monk / Rogue. The unarmed attacker who focusing on attacking "pressure points" in the form of using Stunning Fist and Sneak Attack Damage, instead of Strength. Not focusing on strength immediately drew me towards a Halfling (and might as well make it stronghearted for the extra feat) and I remembered that Halfling has Racial Substitution Levels for both Monk and Rogue. The rogue ones are focused on ranged attacks and therefor not useful to the build but the Monk ones are nice and mainly the monk 1 seems very useful.

Halfling Monk 1 grants you Skirmish (Ex) instead of Flurry of blows. It progresses a little bit different from the Scount's version but is otherwise the same. And when you reach Monk 5 you have Skirmish +1d6/+1 AC, one of the prerequisites of Swift Ambusher. So now I'm wondering, am I right to conclude that a Halfing Monk 5 / Rogue 15 with Swift Ambusher, would also be treated as a Scout 15 for the bonuses while skirmishing? I would like to think so, because then feat would increase my damage by quite a bit, and the extra AC would also be very nice.

The idea so far:
Strongheart Halfling
Monk 2 / Rogue 1 / Monk 3 / Rogue 14

Feats:
1. Ability Focus (Stunning Fist)
H. Kung Fu Genius
3. Ascetic Rogue
6. Swift Ambusher
9. Craven
12. ?
15. ?
18. ?

Halfling Monk Grants me Skirmish +1d6/+1 AC instead of Flurry of Bows (the AC bonus only comes at level 5 though) and Weapon Finesse as my 2nd Level Bonus feat. I will trade in Monk's Evasion for Invisible Fist and will train with Sparring Dummy of the Master to upgrade the 5ft step to the 10ft step.

Lightbringer Penetrating Strike instead of trapsense will help me deal extra damage on otherwise immune opponent's but the best hits will steal be against people who aren't because, if my calculations are correct, at level 20, if I can both skirmish and sneak attack my damage per hit (ignoring stats) are:

2d8 + 13d6 + 20

2d8 from Small Monk's unarmed attack (Ascetic Rogue lets Rogue and Monk stack for effectic monk level of 20 for purpuse of unarmed damage)
8d6 Sneak Attack damage from Rogue 15
1d6 from Monk's Skirmish
4d6 from Scout's Skirmish (Swift Ambusher let's Rogue 15 also count as Scout 15 for the purpuse of Skirmish which stacks with Monk's Skirmish)
20 from Craven

So I'm guessing I should focus the last few feats on getting extra attacks, and maybe take a flaw to take Two Weapon Fighting at level one. Ideas?

EDIT:
I'm thinking of Adding two Levels of Swordsages with the difference between Rogue 15 and Rogue 13 pretty much only being 1d6 of SA and 1 AC of Skirmish (Swift Ambusher) I figure that the much easier access to Assassin Stance and the Shadow Blade feat more then makes up for it. (The loss of 2 effective Monk Levels (Ascetic Rogue) for Unarmed Damage are compensated by having a Monk's Belt). But because I'm not starting at level 20 I need to figure out when to add these two levels. I'm not yet very familiar with Tome of Battle so I don't know if I should take it early (before advancing Rogue further) to benefit from having Assassin's Stance, Shadow Blade and maneuvers for a longer period or if I should take it later to be able to have better maneuvers. I would like suggestions for when to take Swordsage and which Maneuvers to pick.

Fouredged Sword
2013-07-30, 02:52 PM
Yes, you would.

A.A.King
2013-07-30, 02:55 PM
Great, I was afraid that if it had nothing to stack with it wouldn't gain the effects, that you needed at least one Scout level to be able to use a Scout's Skirmish.

Now I just have to find the best way to use Stunning Fists

Curmudgeon
2013-07-30, 04:33 PM
Useful elements for your build include:

I recommend the Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplars of Evil, page 21) to be able to turn invisible for a full round, every 3 rounds. That will enable sneak attack (at lower levels, before targets have See Invisibility).
Train with a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide, page 137) to be able to take a 10' step in place of a 5' step. That will enable skirmish damage and you'll still be able to make a full attack.
Take the Lightbringer Penetrating Strike ACF (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, page 208) to deal sneak attack damage to those normally immune, with ½ the normal dice, when you flank them.
Craven feat (Champions of Ruin, page 17) increases your sneak attack damage. Because this bonus is not from dice, it will get multiplied on a critical hit and won't be reduced with Lightbringer Penetrating Strike.
If you can get your party arcane spellcaster to cast Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon, page 115) on you once daily, your unarmed damage will be greatly increased.

A.A.King
2013-07-30, 05:34 PM
Thank you for your input. I already had the first two in mind and I had Penetrating Strike from Dungeonscape on the list but when I looked up Lightbringer Penetrating Strike I found your explenation why you should take that one instead of the Dungeonscape version and I'll definetly just take Lightbringer.

The Greater Mighty Wallop definetly is nice bonus, but not my main focus point right now. What I want to focus on now is finding ways to (ab)use my Sneak Attack and Skirmish damage as well as my Stunning Fist ability

And about Stunning Fists, a lot of the feats to help Stunning Fist seem require a high Wisdom. Normally it shouldn't be a problem because monks want a high wisdom but with Rogue levels I figured I might as well take Kung Fu Genius (can't take Carmendime monk but Kung Fu Genius will replace Wisdom for Save DC of Stunning fist) and focus on Int for extra skills, allowing me to dump Wisdom. The exceptions I found so far are the obvious Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) and Pharaoh's Fist, which is the one that most people recommend as a must have but requires a STR of 15 so is definitely out of the question.
So, what should I do? Are their feats that I should definetly have for a build semi-focused on Stunning Fist which would make Kung Fu Genius the lesser option?

Daftendirekt
2013-07-30, 06:20 PM
Hmm, never thought of this when putting together my Swift Ambusher handbook. May have to add this build in.

That said, since you're going rogue/monk you should definitely pick up Ascetic Rogue (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-adventurer--54/ascetic-rogue--129/).

A.A.King
2013-07-30, 06:24 PM
Ascetic Rogue was the start of my idea for this build. It allows for some very nice Stunning Fist Action when combined with Invisible Fist.

Kuulvheysoon
2013-07-30, 08:17 PM
Hmm, never thought of this when putting together my Swift Ambusher handbook. May have to add this build in.

That said, since you're going rogue/monk you should definitely pick up Ascetic Rogue (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-adventurer--54/ascetic-rogue--129/).

Speaking of which, I'm detecting a distinct lack of Staggering Strike in your Handbook, Daftendirekt.

A.A.King
2013-07-31, 05:36 AM
Posted the idea so far, any idea of this will be decent?

A.A.King
2013-08-02, 05:46 AM
Sorry for double posting but I got a new question I really like an answer to and I figured it was better to keep that in the same thread

Question:
I'm thinking of Adding two Levels of Swordsage. With the difference between Rogue 15 and Rogue 13 pretty much only being 1d6 of SA and 1 AC of Skirmish (Swift Ambusher) I figure that the much easier access to Assassin Stance and the Shadow Blade feat more then makes up for it. (The loss of 2 effective Monk Levels (Ascetic Rogue) for Unarmed Damage are compensated by having a Monk's Belt). But because I'm not starting at level 20 I need to figure out when to add these two levels. I'm not yet very familiar with Tome of Battle so I don't know if I should take it early (before advancing Rogue further) to benefit from having Assassin's Stance, Shadow Blade and maneuvers for a longer period or if I should take it later to be able to have better maneuvers. I would like suggestions for when to take Swordsage and which Maneuvers to pick.

Fouredged Sword
2013-08-02, 06:21 AM
As a rule of thumb, you should take TOB levels as late in your build as possible, and still start with them in play if possible.

If not, then you want to take them just in time to get the particular stances and strikes you want.

A.A.King
2013-08-02, 10:06 AM
Hmmm, In that case I should take after I finished monk. Thanks

Nagukuk
2013-08-02, 10:20 AM
Stunning Fist

Ki Straps - increase the DC +5 = 5,000gp

Ring the Golden Bell - (Dragon Magazine) 1 / d / wis range =5'+5'/wis ranged touch attack for an attack and useable with stunning fist. just awesome!

Pharo's fist is OK (great if the enemies are tightly packed) sandstorm i think.

Choose the Poison ( i cannot remember where this is from but its is 3rd party if you can get it ok'ed it is GREAT for stunning fist)
Choose target to save vrs Fort OR Will with a stunning fist attack!

also Freezing the life blood is great with stunning fist if you can fit it in.

lord_khaine
2013-08-02, 10:23 AM
Choose the Poison ( i cannot remember where this is from but its is 3rd party if you can get it ok'ed it is GREAT for stunning fist)
Choose target to save vrs Fort OR Will with a stunning fist attack!

Its from a 3.0 third party book called Quisential monk as i recall, good luck getting that though :smalltongue:

A.A.King
2013-08-02, 10:55 AM
Oeh, I definetly like Ki Straps and Ring the Gold Bells, especially since Ring the Gold bells is in the Dragon Compendium. Pharaoh's Fist is sadly out of the question because of it's Strength requirement.

The Swordsage actually helps with Ring the Gold Bell because Discipline Focus Shadowhand (Weapon Focus) gives me Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike). Now I just need a place to fit it in

EDIT: Hmmm Ki Straps from MIC only adds +2 from were is the +5 version?