Tarquin predicted Nale would kill Malack?

[Ellye]

I've been thinking, since Tarquin decided to stay behind and leave Malack and Nale to work together, that, perhaps, he wanted them to fight. He certainly knew that chances of it happening were high.

And I don't think he wanted Nale to lose. For me, Tarquin seems to be protective of Nale: he kept sparing his life with semi-excuses of him still being useful, and the fact that Nale supposedly "escaped" from his father and Malack years ago (perhaps more than once) also sounds fishy - I don't think Tarquin was ever actually trying to kill Nale.

Just like Tarquin seems to genuinely care about Elan, I think he also does about Nale, even if he's not open about that.

Could Tarquin perhaps predict that Nale would be able to kill Malack? Would Tarquin want to get rid of Malack (this one seems likely to me, actually)?

[Ornithologist]

Tarquin seems to me to be the kind of guy to let Malack and Nale sort it out themselves.

Tarquin has said he doesn't care about Nale's plans of usurping him, and to him I see it as a total win-win scenario.

Malack kills Nale - One less risk to the Plan(tm)
Nale kills Malack - This leaves the possibility of an actual lineage to hand the empires down too, so that maybe Nale and Elan can fight over it after he dies.

I can't for the life of me ever think that Tarquin would care over much if his close friends/party mates died.

[Porthos]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin2.png: Good, good. Now strike Malack down and take his place by my side.
:nale:: Dad, I already did. There's his ash all over my clothes and everything.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin2.png: Now, son, don't talk back to me. You have to recognize the drama of the moment here and let it play out appropriately.
:nale:: *turns to audience* See, this is why I hated growing up here. :smallannoyed:

[RMS Oceanic]

Tarquin seems to me to be the kind of guy to let Malack and Nale sort it out themselves.

Tarquin has said he doesn't care about Nale's plans of usurping him, and to him I see it as a total win-win scenario.

Malack kills Nale - One less risk to the Plan(tm)
Nale kills Malack - This leaves the possibility of an actual lineage to hand the empires down too, so that maybe Nale and Elan can fight over it after he dies.

I can't for the life of me ever think that Tarquin would care over much if his close friends/party mates died.

Pretty much this: I think he knew it would come to blows, so odds are he stayed out of the way to see who would win. There are advantages for either outcome.

[Excise]

I'm actually going to guess that Tarquin didn't predict this, and that it's a legitimate victory by Nale over him.

[JavaScribe]

I can't for the life of me ever think that Tarquin would care over much if his close friends/party mates died.
Tarquin may be a sociopath, but he's also Lawful, and part of being Lawful is loyalty to your compatriots.

[Damaris]

I don't know. Malack, who knows about Tarquin's love for his family as well, must have had a good reason to really believe he'd get to kill Nale after, at least.
I'd like to think that Tarquin wouldn't go out there with only him and Malack and Kilkil with half the Linear Guild on the other side without thinking things through, but if he didn't simply underestimate Nale in not expecting he'd be able to beat Malack, doesn't that potentially put him at even greater risk? And it's not like he could know that Malack would use his second protection spell, or that the pyramid would get blown up leaving Malack without shelter.

[Peelee]

Pretty much this: I think he knew it would come to blows, so odds are he stayed out of the way to see who would win. There are advantages for either outcome.

While I think Tarquin did indeed know something was going to go down, I think his friendship with Malack was very real, and his desire to not have his son die was just as prevalent. I think his hand was somewhat forced, because there was no way the scenario could end without it coming to blows or keeping his friendship with Malack intact.

In short, I think Tarquin knew one was going to die, but will still be saddened by the outcome.

[prism6691]

I'm actually going to guess that Tarquin didn't predict this, and that it's a legitimate victory by Nale over him.

I would normally agree with you, however I do find it interesting that he left right after he saw the new vampire Durkon and saw him cast the pro daylight on him. He might have known that he was vulnerable (after adventuring with him for years he probably knew he only prepared it twice) and wanted to give Nale a fighting chance.

[Mr.Rictus]

I think there was a lot of that in Tarquin's thinking: He wants his son to succeed, but he did not want to betray one of his oldest friends either. Since he liked neither prospect, he intentionally left them for a long period alone to see who would rise out on top. Frankly, they both had decent resources, so in Tarquin's view, the "better man" won out. So he might be sad over Malack's passing, I doubt he will get extremely angry and try to kill Nale on the spot. However, since he probably sent word to his allies, we'll have to see what THEY think of Tarquin's uppity spawn destroying their oldest ally...

[quasit]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin2.png: Good, good. Now strike Malack down and take his place by my side.
:nale:: Dad, I already did. There's his ash all over my clothes and everything.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin2.png: Now, son, don't talk back to me. You have to recognize the drama of the moment here and let it play out appropriately.
:nale:: *turns to audience* See, this is why I hated growing up here. :smallannoyed:

Great :smallbiggrin:

I've just realized of something. Xykon was denied of professional promotion by his previous boss for his total disregard of tactics and thoughfull n' carefull planning. Could it be that nale was likewise kinda offed for his lack of grasp of the narrative structure? Just a thought.

[Mike Havran]

I think he knew it will inevitably come to the showdown between his old friend and his estranged son. He simply didn't want to mess up with it. Whether the outcome will be bittersweet or sweetbitter.

[SowZ]

Tarquin may be a sociopath, but he's also Lawful, and part of being Lawful is loyalty to your compatriots.

Not exactly. Plenty of LE people manipulate the political system and backstab allies to increase their power. LE people can be treacherous, too.

[Snails]

While I think Tarquin did indeed know something was going to go down, I think his friendship with Malack was very real, and his desire to not have his son die was just as prevalent.

Yes, but "love" and "friendship" do not necessarily mean what you think it means, when it comes to Tarquin.

Tarquin is certainly perceptive. He surely recognized that both Nale successfully seizing the Gate or Nale failing to seize the Gate could precipitate a break in the truce, by the very loosy goosy terms such was negotiated right smack in front of Nale. It just so happens that Tarquin and his accountant stepping aside leaves it a fair fight.

Very convenient to go missing for an hour or two, eh? Tarquin hands are "clean" regardless of the result.

If Nale prevails, Nale has earned his right to live, while being under Tarquin thumb the whole time, and working towards Tarquin's plans.

If Malack prevails, Tarquin has proven his loyalty to their understanding, by being magnanimous enough to not complain about the killing of his own flesh and blood.

Win-win.

[Skarn]

If Nale prevails, Nale has earned his right to live, while being under Tarquin thumb the whole time, and working towards Tarquin's plans.

Since he's proven himself worthy, he might even listen to Nale's advice now. Especially if Malack was the reason they feuded before.

[Snails]

Since he's proven himself worthy, he might even listen to Nale's advice now. Especially if Malack was the reason they feuded before.

Might. It would be like Tarquin to pretend to have a newly found respect for Nale, even if he thinks otherwise.

But I say that underlying problem is Tarquin is thoroughly Lawful, and Nale is a closet Chaotic. The rest would be details.

[DR27]

Win-win.Has Tarquin ever done something that wasn't a win-win in his view? (aside from his naive early conquering days)

[Peelee]

Yes, but "love" and "friendship" do not necessarily mean what you think it means, when it comes to Tarquin.

Tarquin is certainly perceptive. He surely recognized that both Nale successfully seizing the Gate or Nale failing to seize the Gate could precipitate a break in the truce, by the very loosy goosy terms such was negotiated right smack in front of Nale. It just so happens that Tarquin and his accountant stepping aside leaves it a fair fight.

Very convenient to go missing for an hour or two, eh? Tarquin hands are "clean" regardless of the result.

If Nale prevails, Nale has earned his right to live, while being under Tarquin thumb the whole time, and working towards Tarquin's plans.

If Malack prevails, Tarquin has proven his loyalty to their understanding, by being magnanimous enough to not complain about the killing of his own flesh and blood.

Win-win.

I never used the word "love," so I don't know what you mean by that, but I find it very strange that so many people think that is not possible for Tarquin to have a true, actual friend. Malack was evil on a massive scale, and planned to sacrifice thousands per day to his god, and enact a ruling class of vamps to reign over his empire. And yet he was able to befriend a lawful good cleric he only knew for a short time. Why is it so unbelievable that Tarquin could have a friend among the group he has a lot in common with, a group he adventured with, and a group he has trusted and relied on for his con to work for several decades? Is it really so unbelievable that he would respect and care about them as friends?

[King of Nowhere]

I think tarquin was real frined with malack and did not want him to die. After all, tarquin is the embodyment of the "even evil have loved ones" trope. But he also cared for Nale.
So, I liked the idea that he just left to give the two of them a chance to fight it out, knowing that one way or the other one person dear to him would die that day.

On the other hand, while tarquin is a legitimate magnificent bastard, he's shown to be far from perfect. He missed seeing nale in his kingdom. he thought Zz'dtri was an ambassador of the dark elves. He failed to kill thog. Tarquin's skill comes in his capability to always come out on top and fix his plans whenever something goes wrong. He's not the "all according to my plan" kind of schemer, he's the "I hadn't anticipated this, but I already know how to fix it" kind of schemer.
So, it is also perfectly possible that tarquin did not saw it coming (after all, he never held nale in high regard), will be surprised by it, but will manage to go on like before, even if his party will be one cleric down.

I'd say both scenarios are equally likely

[Ellye]

It's interesting because the situation might be both a win-win situation and a lose-lose situation for him.

Whatever the outcome of the fight was, Tarquin would have one less potential obstacle in his way to become some sort of historical legend (I don't buy that Tarquin fully appreciates Malack plans - he wouldn't be a legend because he would look like small stuff compared to Malack), but he also would lose one person dear to him.

[BrometheusJones]

I dont think Tarquin wanted this.

I think he was looking forward to his gigantic statue Malack was going to build for him. He would be immortalized by that deed, and since Malack and Tarquin were good friends, and lawful, he was virtually assured his immortality (of which he talks about in one of his discussions with Elan, his legacy that is, which he wanted to be grand).

With Nale killing Malack, Tarquins legacy is uncertain. Knowing how ultra-prepped Tarquin is for everything, that says he strongly dislikes uncertainty.

It would go against his character as I see it, for him to want Malack to die to Nale.

Oh, also, he wants Elan to succeed him anyway... doesnt he? That would be another factor in me saying hes not going to be happy when he finds out, and if given the chance, would probably kill nale in dramatic epic fashion immediately, if this was a non-scripted series of events.

Of course since its a story and Nale is still a vital part of that story, he wont be killed, most likely, yet.

And Im hoping Durkon will kill the little bastard instead of Tarquin.

[SowZ]

I never used the word "love," so I don't know what you mean by that, but I find it very strange that so many people think that is not possible for Tarquin to have a true, actual friend. Malack was evil on a massive scale, and planned to sacrifice thousands per day to his god, and enact a ruling class of vamps to reign over his empire. And yet he was able to befriend a lawful good cleric he only knew for a short time. Why is it so unbelievable that Tarquin could have a friend among the group he has a lot in common with, a group he adventured with, and a group he has trusted and relied on for his con to work for several decades? Is it really so unbelievable that he would respect and care about them as friends?

But as soon as you throw their children in the mix, people can betray true friends with little thought. Even if Malack was a true friend, I could see Tarquin allowing Nale his attempt to kill him. (After all, it is giving Malack an equal chance to kill Nale.)

[Sylthia]

I think Tarquin knew it would come to blows soon and removed himself from the situation so he would not have to choose sides, but instead wait and see who came out on top.

[David Argall]

Win-win.
It's more of a lose-lose, but Nale and Malack were not willing to bury the hatchet, except in each other's back. So he was going to lose no matter what he did. He just made the battle as even as possible, and as profitable to him.
When Tarquin captured Nale, there was obviously a major chance Nale would be dead in a minute. Tarquin was likely assuming Nale could talk his way out of immediate execution, which was reasonable, but it has to be a risk.
While Nale had a reason that saved his hide for the moment, and Tarquin could see that, he should have seen also that there was also a serious risk that Nale was for it.
Same thing for his "business". Sticking around would have forced him to take sides, and he didn't want to.
So Tarquin will embrace the winner and continue to seek the big prize. Note that this means he does not favor Elan either. Nale will be given a full chance to kill Elan, or vice-versa.

[Sylthia]

It's more of a lose-lose, but Nale and Malack were not willing to bury the hatchet, except in each other's back. So he was going to lose no matter what he did. He just made the battle as even as possible, and as profitable to him.
When Tarquin captured Nale, there was obviously a major chance Nale would be dead in a minute. Tarquin was likely assuming Nale could talk his way out of immediate execution, which was reasonable, but it has to be a risk.
While Nale had a reason that saved his hide for the moment, and Tarquin could see that, he should have seen also that there was also a serious risk that Nale was for it.
Same thing for his "business". Sticking around would have forced him to take sides, and he didn't want to.
So Tarquin will embrace the winner and continue to seek the big prize. Note that this means he does not favor Elan either. Nale will be given a full chance to kill Elan, or vice-versa.

I think Tarquin knows that the rules of heroic stories mean's that Elan must eventually emerge victorious, as the "good guy", since he thinks that Elan is the "hero" of this story. The best Nale can hope for is to not get killed in the process.

[Snails]

... but I find it very strange that so many people think that is not possible for Tarquin to have a true, actual friend. Malack was evil on a massive scale, and planned to sacrifice thousands per day to his god, and enact a ruling class of vamps to reign over his empire. And yet he was able to befriend a lawful good cleric he only knew for a short time. Why is it so unbelievable that Tarquin could have a friend among the group he has a lot in common with, a group he adventured with, and a group he has trusted and relied on for his con to work for several decades? Is it really so unbelievable that he would respect and care about them as friends?

Everything you say here makes sense. And, to some degree, I am in agreement.

I chalk it up to good writing on the Giant's part that there exists a very different point of view on the same issue. Tarquin may truly have had a friendship with Malack however...

First of all, we cannot deny that Malack joins a (presumably) large number of graves littering the desert, of people who thought they had a "understanding" with Tarquin built on both mutual self-interest and something more at the personal level. This seems to be a habit (or standard operating procedure) of Tarquin's. I explicitly called that Tarquin outright betraying Malack could easily be in the cards the moment I saw Malack explanation of their relationship. Trusting Tarquin about abstract ideas about how the far future will play out (e.g. he will hand over rule of the continent to me after he dies) is unwise; letting one's guard down due to confidence in this understanding is nearly suicidal. While I did not foresee the details, I am satisfied that Tarquin purposefully arranged Nale getting to take on Malack on a fair playing field is a reasonable assessment.

Second of all, Tarquin could have easily avoided this turn of events if he considered it important. The key turning point was when he chose to dangle Nale in front of Malack like meat before a hungry tiger, for the apparent purpose of gaining instant compliance from Nale. Tarquin could have sent Malack away and arranged a private conversation with the invisible Nale -- Tarquin is quite skilled at that kind of subterfuge and Malack is not so sharp in these matters. The fact that Nale and Malack were on a direct collision course has everything to do with overt choices on Tarquin's part. Now, there would have been a price, instantaneous compliance from Nale has strategic advantages. OTOH, the nature of values is they are only meaningful if one is willing to pay a price. Clearly probably losing either Malack or Nale for a crack at a magical target (Gate) he does not yet understand is a price he would pay without hesitation.

Third of all, there is another wrinkle to that last point: Elan. IMHO, Tarquin's primary interest in the Gate is that Elan is interested in the Gate. Recall that Tarquin knew exactly zero about the nature of this magical artifact before dangling Nale in front of Malack. Tarquin is angling for his legacy and Elan is his best shot. Nale is a reasonable backup plan. In this view, whether Tarquin says it out loud or not, Malack is third fiddle, at best. Thus a reasonable sacrifice to "repair" his relationship with Nale. ("Repair" in this case probably means play Nale and Elan against each other, so that he can manipulate both their destinies to his liking.)

[Fish]

I think it's reasonable to guess that Tarquin predicted Nale's attempt at betrayal. Predicting a successful betrayal ... well, Tarquin probably didn't expect Nale to take his sweet time about it. A decade and more?

Tarquin: Come on, son, I have been setting you up for this moment since you were nine. I gave up hope that you'd ever do it!
Nale: You ... you set me UP?
Tarquin: Of course! Why can't you be more like your brother Elan. He shows up, and within two days he challenged me to a duel on the roof!
Nale: Grrr...

[Snails]

I think it's reasonable to guess that Tarquin predicted Nale's attempt at betrayal. Predicting a successful betrayal ... well, Tarquin probably didn't expect Nale to take his sweet time about it. A decade and more?

"Come on, son, I have been setting you up for this moment since you were nine. I gave up hope that you'd ever do it!"

Sure. Malack is smart, but only a bit slow on the uptake; so setting up a genuinely certain result was never going to be in the cards. Tarquin can play either result adequately towards his purposes. I think the evidence leans towards the idea that this is Tarquin's preferred scenario, because it gives maximum leverage on Elan if nothing else.

[David Argall]

First of all, we cannot deny that Malack joins a (presumably) large number of graves littering the desert, of people who thought they had a "understanding" with Tarquin built on both mutual self-interest and something more at the personal level.
Actually we can very easily deny it. Oh it is highly likely that many of Tarquin's former [late?] partners did not do as well from their association with him as they might have hoped, and many probably had a permanent reason for not complaining about this, but he associates with a lot of evil types and Tarquin probably had to "explain" to most of them that not doing things Tarquin's way was not an option, particularly when the other guy's plans involved taking most of the loot [and probably Tarquin's life].
But what we have here is that Tarquin is a "good" father. That means that when Junior gets caught in crime, you hire the fancy pants lawyer to get him off. Your good buddy is lucky to get a loan to pay the lawyer. When Junior steals from your buddy, you may make him give it back, but you still try to protect Junior.
So Tarquin could have a perfect record of supporting his friends and it would be reasonable for him to shaft Malack here. Now Nale is a particularly "disobedient" child, and many a father would have cut his losses, but kin is kin and giving the brat "one last chance", even when that chance requires killing an old friend, is no surprise.



Tarquin could have easily avoided this turn of events if he considered it important. The key turning point was when he chose to dangle Nale in front of Malack like meat before a hungry tiger, for the apparent purpose of gaining instant compliance from Nale. Tarquin could have sent Malack away and arranged a private conversation with the invisible Nale -- Tarquin is quite skilled at that kind of subterfuge and Malack is not so sharp in these matters.
The problem is that this is only a temporary solution. Nale will still want to nail Malack, who wants to pound Nale. Tarquin would have to pretty firmly side with Nale if he had a private conersation with Nale, and Tarquin wants to side with the winner. Most of us, with good reason, deemed Malack the sure winner of any such fight, and so Tarquin wanted to have good relations with him after the fight.

[joosy]

Didn't see it posted but if it hasn't: It is possible that Nale may not tell Tarquin the truth about what happened to his friend and try to blame Elan.

Of course, I doubt it as Nale is too much of an egomaniac to not let his deeds go unrecognized. However, if he was wiser, his next move should be to try to dispatch Durkula and, if failing that, then hope that Z has another teleport spell prepared.

Nale still may want to take revenge on his father for not letting him be the ruler two years ago - I predict the Linear Guild will team up with the representative from the Free City of Doom and make a play for the last gate.

[Snails]

Actually we can very easily deny it. Oh it is highly likely that many of Tarquin's former [late?] partners did not do as well from their association with him as they might have hoped, and many probably had a permanent reason for not complaining about this, but he associates with a lot of evil types and Tarquin probably had to "explain" to most of them that not doing things Tarquin's way was not an option, particularly when the other guy's plans involved taking most of the loot [and probably Tarquin's life].

You can hypothesize something we have exactly zero evidence of, but it is not very persuasive. Admittedly I am arguing based on circumstantial evidence. But I think I do have some evidence. "Some" may not be a lot, but it is more than zero.


The problem is that this is only a temporary solution. Nale will still want to nail Malack, who wants to pound Nale. Tarquin would have to pretty firmly side with Nale if he had a private conersation with Nale, and Tarquin wants to side with the winner. Most of us, with good reason, deemed Malack the sure winner of any such fight, and so Tarquin wanted to have good relations with him after the fight.

Temporary solutions are often sufficient, when wielded by skilled hands. (e.g. Nale might be set up as a happy tyrant somewhere far away, eventually, and be distracted from vengeance until long after Tarquin's death, when it is all out of his hands.) The ongoing assumption in this thread is Tarquin is at least Very Skilled.

Tarquin does not have to "side" with Nale. He can just play the "I made promises, but I can help you stay out of harms way. We can work together." card. Tarquin tried all of exactly nothing other than "Okay, time to feed my son to the undead thing. Aw, shucks.". There were many, many other options, if Tarquin cared to explore.

[Heksefatter]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin2.png: Good, good. Now strike Malack down and take his place by my side.
:nale:: Dad, I already did. There's his ash all over my clothes and everything.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin2.png: Now, son, don't talk back to me. You have to recognize the drama of the moment here and let it play out appropriately.
:nale:: *turns to audience* See, this is why I hated growing up here. :smallannoyed:

I loved this.

Also, I am in the camp that says that Tarquin left to give Nale a chance to survive, or at least not to be there and on some level participate in the murder of his son.

I don't claim to know, though.

[veti]

I chalk it up to good writing on the Giant's part that there exists a very different point of view on the same issue. Tarquin may truly have had a friendship with Malack however...

... however, what you said first still applies. "Friend", for Tarquin, does not imply any meaningful sort of commitment.

It's easy to forget, with Tarquin being so nice and smiley, that he's a vicious narcissistic sociopath who's every bit as evil as Xykon. How many "friends" does Xykon have, exactly? Well, if you think of a "friend" as "someone you would make sacrifices and take risks for", then Tarquin has about the same number. Every relationship he has is purely about convenience and utility. And (I think) he assumes that everyone else sees the world in the same way.

The reason Tarquin's not there right now? Because he foresaw this conflict, and knew that if he was there he might have had to take a side, thereby running the (slight) risk that he might make the wrong (i.e. losing) choice, or even worse, get in the line of fire himself.


Second of all, Tarquin could have easily avoided this turn of events if he considered it important.

This.

Tarquin gained a level of convenience by setting up this conflict, which could only end with the death of either his son or his so-called friend - and he grabbed that opportunity, had his way with it, then made himself scarce so that the consequences could play out without him having to get involved.



Third of all, there is another wrinkle to that last point: Elan. IMHO, Tarquin's primary interest in the Gate is that Elan is interested in the Gate. Recall that Tarquin knew exactly zero about the nature of this magical artifact before dangling Nale in front of Malack. Tarquin is angling for his legacy and Elan is his best shot.

Here is where I part company with you. I think Tarquin's level of feeling for Elan is about on a par with my level of feeling for my lunch. I'm glad to have it, but I don't make extensive plans around it, and I certainly wouldn't spend much time mourning it if it somehow got destroyed. Heck, I'd do it myself with barely a pang if something better came along.

Tarquin got involved in the story partly to manipulate Nale and Elan, partly because he wanted to see if there was anything to Nale's yarn about an incredibly powerful artifact, and partly because he's galled by the very thought of a meaningful "story" - on his turf, even - that doesn't revolve around him.

[DeadMG]

... however, what you said first still applies. "Friend", for Tarquin, does not imply any meaningful sort of commitment.

It's easy to forget, with Tarquin being so nice and smiley, that he's a vicious narcissistic sociopath who's every bit as evil as Xykon. How many "friends" does Xykon have, exactly? Well, if you think of a "friend" as "someone you would make sacrifices and take risks for", then Tarquin has about the same number. Every relationship he has is purely about convenience and utility. And (I think) he assumes that everyone else sees the world in the same way.

I get the impression that Tarquin really cared about Elan's mother. I think that he really loved her. Perhaps their breakup was the cause of his spiral into Evil, with some help from the IFCC.

Also, I'd like to point out that Xykon has made sacrifices for Redcloak in the past- especially his undeath. I doubt that was out of friendship, of course. But he certainly does recognize that Redcloak can be trusted with their scheme, and with him until it's complete. You might argue that this sort of implicit trust is a big sort of friendship.

[veti]

I get the impression that Tarquin really cared about Elan's mother. I think that he really loved her. Perhaps their breakup was the cause of his spiral into Evil, with some help from the IFCC.

Given that about the only thing we know about their relationship was that it ended with him suing her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) for divorce...

Any other impression you may have gleaned must have come from Tarquin himself talking to Elan. Remember there's an easy trick to tell when Tarquin is lying: he has a speech bubble.


Also, I'd like to point out that Xykon has made sacrifices for Redcloak in the past- especially his undeath. I doubt that was out of friendship, of course. But he certainly does recognize that Redcloak can be trusted with their scheme, and with him until it's complete. You might argue that this sort of implicit trust is a big sort of friendship.

It's been a while since I read SoD, but if recall aright - that wasn't "for Redcloak", that was to get himself out of Lirian's trap. And he didn't see it as a sacrifice at the time, he saw it as gaining power. It wasn't until later that he discovered he'd lost the ability to taste coffee.

Xykon "trusts" Redcloak to the extent that (he believes) he controls him. He's demanded multiple sacrifices from Redcloak - most recently, the leadership of Gobbotopia - but I can't recall him (willingly) giving anything the other way.

[Buretsu]

I get the impression that Tarquin really cared about Elan's mother. I think that he really loved her. Perhaps their breakup was the cause of his spiral into Evil, with some help from the IFCC.

I refer you to #760, namely Tarquin mentioning liquefying every man in a tavern because one of them grabbed his wife's butt..

[martianmister]

I think Tarquin's level of feeling for Elan is about on a par with my level of feeling for my lunch. I'm glad to have it, but I don't make extensive plans around it, and I certainly wouldn't spend much time mourning it if it somehow got destroyed. Heck, I'd do it myself with barely a pang if something better came along
...............................

I mean, I think good and evil are easily grasped, and I think it's a little less intuitive for people to really understand law and chaos, as they are - if they exist - as concepts. Because here you have Tarquin, for most of the first part of the story, is evil, is just straight up evil. But he loves his son. He cares about family. He likes his empire running orderly. He doesn't just sort of go around slaughtering people for kicks. He has a plan, he has a goal, which he's sort of executing step by step. He's not Xykon. He's not this sort of crazy force of evil. You can almost picture Tarquin existing in the real world.

[King of Nowhere]

I refer you to #760, namely Tarquin mentioning liquefying every man in a tavern because one of them grabbed his wife's butt..
Aww, I wanted to say that.

Anyway, Tarquin relationship with the few selected people he cared for have always struck me as sincere. I would bet good money he sincerely cares for his party members as friends (meaning that, yes, he is willing to make sacrifices for them if needed), and that he genuinely loves his sons, and loved his first wife, and a few of the other wives. His comment when he denied torturing somebody to death to enchant a ring (wait, who would you consider a "somebody"?) strongly hints that he divides the world into "somebodies" he care for and "nobodies" he consider, at best, useful resources.
Also, the comic has a pretty strong theme of evil people having loved ones, or caring for something. Xykon don't, but he's pretty much the exception, and it characterizes him as the absolute monster. I would really be surprised if it suddenly turned in another direction. Also, it would make tarquin more stereotyped and a worse character imo.

So I keep standing by my idea that he either failed to see it coming (he strongly understimates nale, and it would be far from the first time he fail to see something coming; his skill is not in predicting anything, but in fixing things quickly and effectively when something goes awry), or he saw it coming and realized that one person he genuinely cared for had to die and decided to stay out of it.

Then there is also the option that he actually *has* something important to do.

EDIT: thanks, martianmister, for providing a good quote to settle the issue.

[Henry the 57th]

I think Tarquin could see that it would inevitably come to blows - Malack and Nale hated each other far too much for any other end to be on the cards. What was less clear was who would win. Tarquin simply decided that now was the time for the feud to end, and removed himself from the scene to allow events to run their course.

Personally, I think Tarquin will be very proud of Nale. He was ruthless, efficient, and acted quickly to destroy a threat to himself. Just the kind of man Tarquin wanted to raise.

[sengmeng]

I think Tarquin could see that it would inevitably come to blows - Malack and Nale hated each other far too much for any other end to be on the cards. What was less clear was who would win. Tarquin simply decided that now was the time for the feud to end, and removed himself from the scene to allow events to run their course.

Personally, I think Tarquin will be very proud of Nale. He was ruthless, efficient, and acted quickly to destroy a threat to himself. Just the kind of man Tarquin wanted to raise.

Yeah, this. I think he left so that the fight could happen, knowing that the initiative and advantage were held by Nale (Malack was waiting on Tarquin's say-so to attack, Nale was waiting for the best chance), and he would have been fine with either outcome, but Nale winning was what he hoped for. It was a test, more than anything. If Nale lost, he would have been proved as incompetent as Malack thought, and by winning, he's probably made Tarquin proud for the first time in a decade. I'm betting Tarquin will be all smiles and unsurprised when we see him next.

[pendell]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin2.png: Good, good. Now strike Malack down and take his place by my side.
:nale:: Dad, I already did. There's his ash all over my clothes and everything.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin2.png: Now, son, don't talk back to me. You have to recognize the drama of the moment here and let it play out appropriately.
:nale:: *turns to audience* See, this is why I hated growing up here. :smallannoyed:

WIN. Thread has been won.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[David Argall]

You can hypothesize something we have exactly zero evidence of, but it is not very persuasive. Admittedly I am arguing based on circumstantial evidence. But I think I do have some evidence. "Some" may not be a lot, but it is more than zero.
We are talking about something "we cannot deny". That is not the preponderance of the evidence. It is not even guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt. It is walking on the sidewalk assuming it will be there and not some illusion, something you do automatically. When you say "some evidence" you are rejecting "cannot deny".
Now the fact the same 6 people were involved in this scheme from the start shows that Tarquin is at least sometimes reliable. On the other hand we have the various tyrants he was "employed" by, which shows he wasn't a true model for "my word is my bond" either.
But as others have pointed out, treachery is not his prime sin. He is a vicious monster who will ruin your life for a reason almost as petty as Nale might. but he is pretty honest in saying you must obey him in all things or ... And like the rest of us, he ranks people in degrees of importance to him, with kin scoring high.



Temporary solutions are often sufficient, when wielded by skilled hands. (e.g. Nale might be set up as a happy tyrant somewhere far away, eventually, and be distracted from vengeance until long after Tarquin's death, when it is all out of his hands.) The ongoing assumption in this thread is Tarquin is at least Very Skilled.
Very skilled is not skilled enough when the two side agree so strongly that the other must die. Nale did not want to be any happy tyrant somewhere far away. And Malack wanted nothing of the sort either. They both wanted the other dead, preferably highly painfully. This sort of situation makes the best peace keeping force look like fools that are laughed at by both sides.



Tarquin does not have to "side" with Nale. He can just play the "I made promises, but I can help you stay out of harms way. We can work together." card. Tarquin tried all of exactly nothing other than "Okay, time to feed my son to the undead thing. Aw, shucks.". There were many, many other options, if Tarquin cared to explore.
But here too, Nale didn't want to stay out of harm's way. He wanted to get Malack. Tarquin might have tried any of a great many reasonable idea, which would have failed utterly due to the hatred of one or both for the other. Letting them fight it out in a way that might leave him with good relations with the survivor is not the virtuous way to deal with the situation, but it looks to have been effective.

[WindStruck]

Well... I'd disagree with the whole premise. I don't think Tarquin could have foreseen the entire pyramid being blown to smithereens. With adequate shelter, Malack would've creamed Nale and Z. If he did think there would be some trouble, either Nale would start it and lose, or possibly Nale would escape. The notion of Malack dying should've been inconceivable to him, unless perhaps some crazy plot twist of inside knowledge he had comes out later.

I just remember, that the whole empire operation was a business. Malack was an important part of that business, along with his other 4 adventuring buddies. And now that Malack's been dusted and replaced with his pompous, megalomaniac son who wants nothing more than to destroy everything they worked for and make himself king (only to be inevitably revolted against), that ought to thoroughly piss Tarquin off.

Sure, he might be impressed, he might have to reconsider Nale, but his business has been hurt and his long-time friend killed.

[Mightymosy]

I think it's reasonable to guess that Tarquin predicted Nale's attempt at betrayal. Predicting a successful betrayal ... well, Tarquin probably didn't expect Nale to take his sweet time about it. A decade and more?

Tarquin: Come on, son, I have been setting you up for this moment since you were nine. I gave up hope that you'd ever do it!
Nale: You ... you set me UP?
Tarquin: Of course! Why can't you be more like your brother Elan. He shows up, and within two days he challenged me to a duel on the roof!
Nale: Grrr...

:smallsmile::smallsmile::smallsmile::smallsmile::s mallsmile:

[blueblade]

I think he knew it will inevitably come to the showdown between his old friend and his estranged son. He simply didn't want to mess up with it. Whether the outcome will be bittersweet or sweetbitter.

This. he backed away to let nature take its course. This will, naturally, infuriate Nale because he fell for another of his father's "Just as Planned" moments.

[Snails]

We are talking about something "we cannot deny". That is not the preponderance of the evidence. It is not even guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt. It is walking on the sidewalk assuming it will be there and not some illusion, something you do automatically. When you say "some evidence" you are rejecting "cannot deny".
Now the fact the same 6 people were involved in this scheme from the start shows that Tarquin is at least sometimes reliable. On the other hand we have the various tyrants he was "employed" by, which shows he wasn't a true model for "my word is my bond" either.
But as others have pointed out, treachery is not his prime sin. He is a vicious monster who will ruin your life for a reason almost as petty as Nale might. but he is pretty honest in saying you must obey him in all things or ... And like the rest of us, he ranks people in degrees of importance to him, with kin scoring high.

Okay, "cannot deny" might be too strongly stated, if we want to be pedantic. The counterargument is built on a foundation of zero evidence, nonetheless. Let's go with it would be patently silly to deny. You still have nothing.

"Treachery is not his prime sin"? Tarquin has explicitly stated that betrayal is a standard operating procedure for expanding his empires.

As I see it, it boils down to the fact Malack did not raise a finger to save the life of either his friend or son. In fact, he helped the showdown happen because it was convenient for him. No more than that. Personal convenience.

The man is a cold fish. Malack has demonstrated he gives a fig about other people. On rare occasions. Tarquin has not.

I suppose that there are 5 individuals that Tarquin has not yet screwed over in this universe means something. Oh, wait...4. What does that prove exactly?

[Ornithologist]

I would even volunteer the following information.

It is standard operation procedure of evil emperors to sacrifice subordinates for personal gain.

Luckily, in this case, Tarquin can count both Nale and Malack as subordinates. this will either strengthen his hold on his empire (It is his empire, even if the rest of his party doesn't know it yet), or remove a dangerous wild card in his empire scheme (Nale).

Remember Tarquin takes the long view. the long view being 20 to 30 more years of being an evil emperor in the background.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin2.png"But you can't make an omelet without ruthlessly crushing dozens of eggs under your steel boot, and then publicly disemboweling the chickens that laid them as a warning to others."

[David Argall]

As I see it, it boils down to the fact Malack did not raise a finger to save the life of either his friend or son. In fact, he helped the showdown happen because it was convenient for him. No more than that. Personal convenience.
And as I see it, there was really nothing Tarquin could effectively do. He was between two mad dogs and trying to stop them from killing each other would just have gotten him chewed up. So he just stepped back.
Remember here that Tarquin is not at all a winner here. He has lost a very useful friend and ally, somebody he definitely wanted to keep. But if our speculations are right, he knew he was risking that for his ungrateful brat of a son.



The man is a cold fish. Malack has demonstrated he gives a fig about other people. On rare occasions. Tarquin has not.
See all his relations with his wives and kids. Tarquin very much cared/cares for them. Not for their opinions or what they actually want, but he does want to benefit them [his definition of benefit of course, which several of the beneficiaries seem to dispute, but there are a lot of do-gooders around who are deemed major pests by those they want to "benefit".]



I suppose that there are 5 individuals that Tarquin has not yet screwed over in this universe means something. Oh, wait...4. What does that prove exactly?
There are much more than that, and they are the ones with the most contact with him.

[Snails]

And as I see it, there was really nothing Tarquin could effectively do. He was between two mad dogs and trying to stop them from killing each other would just have gotten him chewed up. So he just stepped back.

Nonsense.

Tarquin understood that Nale's target was Elan's quest. Nale was not in the city for Malack, Nale was avoiding Malack. With a little help and/or encouragement, Nale would have simply left. Tarquin had correctly guessed all of this.

Would Nale eventually come after Malack? Probably. But "eventually" looked like it would not be the foreseeable future. Until Tarquin decided to intervene.

They were "mad dogs" because Tarquin grabbed the both of them, threw them into the same kennel, locked the door, and walked away. He had many choices. Imagining he had none is just silly.

[DaveMcW]

Tarquin was secretly cheering for Nale all the way. He considers his sons part of his legacy, much more than a bigger statue.

When Malack posted a reward for Nale dead or alive, Tarquin deducted the cost of a true resurrection. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0715.html)

If Malack won, I'm sure Tarquin would arrange to have Nale resurrected behind Malack's back.

[Magnasword2]

I'm not sure if this has been posted but this here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html shows Tarquin's buisness before pleasure attitude however with Nale handling the operation in his eyes he repeatedly tests both his heirs. Elan against them and Nale with them. I think It's viable that he's seeing which of them is worthy of inheriting his legacy and so forth.

[sengmeng]

Tarquin left so he didn't have to choose sides. He gave Nale the best chance he could without direct interference. I wonder if there even was a "task" that he and Kilkil are up to. Nale needed to seize the initiative to win, and couldn't if Tarquin was there, because he wouldn't know if Tarquin would sit idly by, side with him, or side with Malack.

[quasit]

Perhaps "before we left the city you- order to put an employment offer for a high level cleric" :smallbiggrin:

Mandatory: Able to cast true resurrection.
Good aligned clerics abstain from apply.

[rodneyAnonymous]

<thread hop>


I've been thinking, since Tarquin decided to stay behind and leave Malack and Nale to work together, that, perhaps, he wanted them to fight. He certainly knew that chances of it happening were high.

Totally, Tarquin must have known Malack and Nale would fight, but I think it's more that there was a bright side to either one winning it, than that he strongly preferred one or the other.

[Simone Says]

DaveMCW, I never noticed that before. Good catch! Given how Tarquin is frequently around his accountant kobold, that's exactly the kind of thing he would insert into a "Wanted" poster.

[WindStruck]

DaveMCW, I never noticed that before. Good catch! Given how Tarquin is frequently around his accountant kobold, that's exactly the kind of thing he would insert into a "Wanted" poster.

Wow! Extremely good catch! BUT...

I'm sure Tarquin did not want Malack dead either. I honestly think we'll see him finally lose his cool and have a melt down over this. Or yeah... the whole "aha I'm so proud of you!" is also possible, but so is a negative reaction...

[mhsmith]

I would even volunteer the following information.

It is standard operation procedure of evil emperors to sacrifice subordinates for personal gain.

Luckily, in this case, Tarquin can count both Nale and Malack as subordinates. this will either strengthen his hold on his empire (It is his empire, even if the rest of his party doesn't know it yet), or remove a dangerous wild card in his empire scheme (Nale).

Remember Tarquin takes the long view. the long view being 20 to 30 more years of being an evil emperor in the background.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin2.png"But you can't make an omelet without ruthlessly crushing dozens of eggs under your steel boot, and then publicly disemboweling the chickens that laid them as a warning to others."

:xykon:Sacrificing minions: is there any problem it CAN'T solve? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html)

[David Argall]

Tarquin understood that Nale's target was Elan's quest. Nale was not in the city for Malack, Nale was avoiding Malack. With a little help and/or encouragement, Nale would have simply left. Tarquin had correctly guessed all of this.
Nale was after something Big. Just what Tarquin didn't know, but just letting Nale walk away was not an option, both because Nale might succeed, and that he might fail. This is business and by party rules, he has to be honest with Malack and keep him informed [& given Nale's past record, he wanted backup.]



Would Nale eventually come after Malack? Probably.
No probability about it. Dead certain [unless one became dead by other cause of course]. They both tell us this. Killing the other was a high priority mission.



But "eventually" looked like it would not be the foreseeable future.
Nale was back in 2 years. "Eventually" does not look to be that long.



They were "mad dogs" because Tarquin grabbed the both of them, threw them into the same kennel, locked the door, and walked away. He had many choices.
What were they? So far we have only seen ideas Tarquin would reject.

[Liliet]

Tarquin would have to be an idiot to not recognise this coming - and with his grasp of narrative structure he must have known that his son would emerge on top, too.
Say what you like about his friendship with Tarquin, to me Malack looks like a pure sociopat. He kills Durkon to befriend him no Madoka no, he seeks to treat humans as livestock in the very great empire Tarquin was building so eagerly, he is a zero-chances villain from the narrative point of view, he treats his mind-enslaved spawn like children... I seriously doubt Tarquin would value a relationship with someone like that. He is a lot more... human. He is one of those that are just food to Malack and just so happened to be of some use to him. I can see a Good character still being loyal to his friend despite all that, but Tarquin? When there is his son on the other side? No way.

[Jay R]

Tarquin was secretly cheering for Nale all the way. He considers his sons part of his legacy, much more than a bigger statue.

Once long ago, perhaps. Tarquin referred to Nale as "an easily controlled leech whose parasitic existence evokes a once-cherished relationship that died painfully (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html)."

[Liliet]

Once long ago, perhaps. Tarquin referred to Nale as "an easily controlled leech whose parasitic existence evokes a once-cherished relationship that died painfully (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html)."
Oh yeah, in a friendly conversation with Nale in Malack's presence. Do you think he would state his true feelings openly? Tarquin doesn't lie bluntly, but his whole shtick is deceit, what with his suboprimal high-Cha fighter build. Of course he'd say that regardless of what he really felt about Nale. Even besides the secrecy, Tarquin has a style to maintain, and it is not the style of the loving father.