The Zz'dtri Appreciation Thread!

[Demolator]

Once I finished reading strip 906, I had an epiphany: I haven't appreciated Zz'dtri nearly as much as I should have! Normally, when most of us talk about how much we like villains on here we're all like Omagawd Xykon or Omagawd Redcloak or Omagawd Familicidal V! Today though, I'm having a moment where I'm like Omagawd Zz'dtri!

It's a real shame Zz'dtri isn't leading the Linear Guild. Nale may be a bit less incompetent than we all thought, but I think things would have gone a lot better if Zz'dtri was in charge from the get-go. Nale may be alright at making overly complicated plans (that always go awry), but Zz'dtri ALWAYS COMES PREPARED.

Who turned Celia to stone because he knew not to leave loose ends? Zz'dtri. Who countered all V's spells and would've won if something totally unforseen didn't happen? Zz'dtri. Who spied on the order and discovered they were coming to the EoB so they could plan an unexpected ambush? Zz'dtri. Who appeared EXACTLY when the time was right and wrecked V in a magic fight and even when almost defeated from something unexpected pulled his final trick and would have had his nemesis tortured forever if not lied to by an imp? That's right, ZZ'DTRI.

Another thing that makes Zz'dtri so great is that he's a good friend. When Zz'dtri was taken away by those lawyers (those fiends!), I bet a lot of us thought we'd never see him again. I bet Nale and Sabine and Thog thought so too. But when Z popped up again in the empire, loyal as ever to Nale (he never even stopped (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0789.html) working for him all those strips he was absent!) That takes dedication, even when all of Nale's schemes were failing. In fact, every time the Linear Guild attacks, Nale and Sabine usually get pretty roughed up, as well as Thog (to a lesser extent, except for 808 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html)), Zz'dtri barely ever even gets scratched besides 802 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0802.html), and as far as I can recall he has never lost a magic duel. Even in 802 though, he still won (kind of) by taking V out of the mortal plane (although it wasn't the right plane, but he had no way of knowing)! Point is, Zz'dtri knows what he's doing. Once Nale threw Malack's staff away, Zz'dtri was just right on it, making him vulnerable to sunlight, allowing Nale to go in for the kill (because Zz'dtri was cool like that and knew that this was really Nale's fight).

It's a real shame Z's in the Linear Guild, actually, in terms of Z being an antagonist. Usually when I see the Linear Guild come up in panels I'm like "Lol guys it's those bumbling rival antagonists," and I don't even think the Order takes them as seriously as they used to (at least Elan doesn't), but I think that if Z wasn't taking orders from Nale, he'd be something to worry about. Like, when team evil left and Redcloak summoned the sand monster, the order would be about that worried if Z was his own antagonist and he confronted them.

So yeah, it's not hard to see that Zz'dtri is a total beast. Look at him (sorry, couldn't find a Z smilie, which is weird because he's so greathttp://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/ZzdtriNew.pngThanks, Gift.), he's dependable, powerful, organized, a loyal friend, perhaps the most competent member of the LG, and he's even protected speech! He could probably hold his own against the order any day, and he's probably one of the best underestimated villains of ALL TIME. :smallcool:

[WindStruck]

I would agree Z is awesome, but the one fundamental quality of a leader is communication. He needs to improve a bit in that department. :smallwink:

[Demolator]

I would agree Z is awesome, but the one fundamental quality of a leader is communication. He needs to improve a bit in that department. :smallwink:

I'm willing to bet he has some awesome telepathy powers and that's why we never saw him and Nale planning out how they'd get rid of Malack.

[FafnerMorell]

One thing about Z as a villain - you're never going to hear the hero say anything like: "He starts monologuing! He starts, like, this prepared speech about how feeble I am compared to him, how inevitable my defeat is, how the world will soon be his! Yadda yadda yadda. Yammering! I mean, the guy has me on a platter, and he won't shut up!"

[Gift Jeraff]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/ZzdtriNew.png Agreed.

[luc258]

I'd love some more Z. He seems to be one of the least fleshed-out villains to me, compared to Thog or Sabine. Some more of him besides parody and counterbuilt against V would be nice, indeed.

[Sylian]

Z has been my favorite Linear Guild member for quite some time now, I think the Giant has managed to improve his character quite a bit.

[quasit]

Also, If we could got a little briefing about why he's so much "for the blood" against V and all that would be great.

[Rakoa]

I hope Z does play more significance in the future than he has, or that we at least get to learn more about him. Despite being an Elf of few words, he seems quite interesting to me.

[Ellye]

Z smile creeps me out. For real.
For example, his smile while casting Greater Dispel on Malack.

I really would like to know why he's, seemingly, so loyal to Nale. They probably have some interesting backstory.

[Math_Mage]

Z is frustratingly underdeveloped, and it's all WotC's fault! >:|

[Vinsfeld]

I've always wondered why Z is so loyal to Nale.

[Rakoa]

Yeah, he seems to do as Nale asks all of the time, and isn't even Lawful. So their history would definitely be interesting.

[Mike Havran]

Yeah. I like Zz'dtri a lot and I would like to know why he is so goddamn attached to Nale's cause. If I were a powerful drow wizard I would pursue my career somewhere else, especially after I was left to the lawyers without a glimpse of concern from my former boss's side.

My most reasonable guess is that Z has a big crush on Nale.

[NerdyKris]

He's definitely become a much more intriguing character when he came back. Just the fact that Nale would pick him up again, and we discover that he was part of Nale's failed coup, added a world of depth to a one off joke.

[denthor]

Also, If we could got a little briefing about why he's so much "for the blood" against V and all that would be great.

They are opposites V is loud and talkative Z is quiet and rarely speaks

V is an Elf Z is a Drow (underdark elf) They are from the same family but z branch is evil and live underground.

In Dunguen Crawling Fool's Rich explains that even there robe choice is a shout out to his old playing buddies. V likes evocation spell(booms) Z likes transmutation spells they enhance but do not kill normally.

So they are also the opposite spectrum of magic.

Drow are abyss bent on killing there surface living kin.

[Klear]

True. damn too short no love for Z's shortspeak =(

[Demolator]

True. damn too short no love for Z's shortspeak =(

I would have included it but it would have been like another four paragraphs.

[PirateMonk]

Who turned Celia to stone because he knew not to leave loose ends? Zz'dtri.

That was leaving a loose end. The rest of the Linear Guild killed the other two guardians, preventing them from causing them any more trouble, whereas Celia was restored and went on to help the Order.

[konradknox]

Z is actually the only legitimate "evil opposite".
He is a drow, which is evil opposite of elf, and he is silent, which is opposite of V's long-windedness.

However, his awesomeness is limited by his pretty bad saving throws and physical defenses. He got stunned by Durkon's holy word, and he is vulnerable to arrows. He isn't quite the epic threat that main villains are.

I'm sure if V dispelled his flight, Belkar could gut Z solo.

[JCAll]

Z is actually the only legitimate "evil opposite".
He is a drow, which is evil opposite of elf, and he is silent, which is opposite of V's long-windedness.

However, his awesomeness is limited by his pretty bad saving throws and physical defenses. He got stunned by Durkon's holy word, and he is vulnerable to arrows. He isn't quite the epic threat that main villains are.

I'm sure if V dispelled his flight, Belkar could gut Z solo.

V is probably squishier than Z. Z at least carries weapons, V doesn't even do that.
Opposites.

[TRH]

Z's enigmatic in the most interesting ways and is a lot more engaging than Sabine at this point. There's also the irony that just as Vaarsuvius is retreating in on herself more and more, her evil opposite is getting a lot more development, especially in the context of his relationship with Nale. If our usual elf wizard isn't allowed to deliver on interesting interpersonal moments, then Zz'drti's a more than acceptable substitute, at least for the moment.

Oh, and it definitely says something about the Linear Guild's level of seriousness that comedic and oftentimes ineffectual villain Thog has been replaced as third man by the much more effective Z. An omen of things to come, you could say.

P.S. Jeraff, where'd you find that Z smilie? I'd sure as hell like one.

[Gift Jeraff]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/ZzdtriNew.png Smilies thread.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5294429

Credit goes to Nimrod's Son for that one.

[Demolator]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/ZzdtriNew.png Smilies thread.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5294429

Credit goes to Nimrod's Son for that one.

How do I apply said smilies? I'm trying and failing. :smallfrown:

[Ill Made Knight]

Z needs to die fairly soon. He's getting close to the point where he'll be one of the most powerful characters in the comic, and not in a good way. One of the things that holds V back a little is that he doesn't have access to 2 of the best schools. However with Conjuration Z is now in a position to make leaps and bounds ahead of the other characters. He hasn't outlived his usefulness yet, but as he starts to get into 9th level spells it's going to be harder for him to not break fights from the outset. In fairness, some of these problems will start to come into play for V too, and will need to be resolved by ever more powerful monsters, but he's starting to get to that point where his role is problematic (in the "not as strong as Xykon, but smarter and more functional, and better than Redcloak too" mold he's going to be an awkward fit on a team who has mainly been comic relief to this point, and who are supposed to be 2nd stringers).

[Gift Jeraff]

Right click, copy image URL, click on the Insert Image icon when making a post (it looks like a little postcard with mountains), paste.

[NerdyKris]

Comic relief? I think it's clear Nale's Linear Guild is coming into their own, now that they've ditched Thog. I think that's the whole point of Z and Nale's effectiveness right now. They're dangerous. They can do serious damage to the Order. They haven't been comic relief since they fled Azure City.

[AgentofOdd]

I've always wondered why Z is so loyal to Nale.If we stretch the opposite themes motif a bit, one could argue that since V is a proactive go getter on an important mission, Z is a passive fellow who doesn't care about much except satisfying his small and petty grievances. Which would fit I think since that's the entire modus operandi of his guild. So, Z's not really loyal to Nale. He's just a satisfactory employer that'll get him exp, and possible access to his nemesis.
How do I apply said smilies? I'm trying and failing. :smallfrown:You'll just need to use the IMG tag on the image link which will look like: http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/ZzdtriNew.png

[Paseo H]

This might not be a perfect analogy because I'm only sort of familiar with Game of Thrones, but...

Game of Thrones spoilers:
Sure Z is smarter probably, but...if anything happened to Tywin in Game of Thrones, does that mean that Littlefinger or Varys should take the reins?

[M.A.D]

Zz'dtri isn't always prepared for everything. As V's evil opposite, he only prepare spells so that he could overpower V at any time. That also means he is not as prepared as a normal wizard in any situation that V is not involved. In fact, he almost lost to V because of that flaw. The only reason we haven't seen him lost a magic duel is because his very build is tailored to fight against V, and we haven't seen him fight anyone else.


I'm willing to bet he has some awesome telepathy powers and that's why we never saw him and Nale planning out how they'd get rid of Malack.

Nale gave him the "go" sign using Drow sign language on the second panel of that strip, at the same time when he drunk the potion of Negative energy protection. Any details were probably discussed a long time ago when Nale killed Malack's children as a practice run.

[JCAll]

Zz'dtri isn't always prepared for everything. As V's evil opposite, he only prepare spells so that he could overpower V at any time. That also means he is not as prepared as a normal wizard in any situation that V is not involved. In fact, he almost lost to V because of that flaw. The only reason we haven't seen him lost a magic duel is because his very build is tailored to fight against V, and we haven't seen him fight anyone else.



Nale gave him the "go" sign using Drow sign language on the second panel of that strip, at the same time when he drunk the potion of Negative energy protection. Any details were probably discussed a long time ago when Nale killed Malack's children as a practice run.

I don't know the rules, but I don't think he has to always prepare his anti-V spellset.

[NerdyKris]

Nale gave him the "go" sign using Drow sign language on the second panel of that strip, at the same time when he drunk the potion of Negative energy protection. Any details were probably discussed a long time ago when Nale killed Malack's children as a practice run.

That's not sign language, that's the cork from the bottle in his hand.

However, I agree, he likely had this planned out with Z ahead of time as a contingency. That if Malack ever gets in a position where he can't cast his second protection from sunlight spell, and can't seek shelter, and is alone, they should attack. Nale's initiating the attack by grabbing the staff is all the sign Z needed to know they were attacking Malack, and to cast dispel magic.

Well, that or Z's standing orders are to always dispel magic when Nale initiates an attack.

[Flame of Anor]

Zz'dtri is pretty cool. I kind of hope he survives to the end and goes off to find some other adventures (preferably not too evil). Or he could become Goblin Dan's fry-cook!

[Vinsfeld]

Well, that or Z's standing orders are to always dispel magic when Nale initiates an attack.

Or Z's standing order are to always dispel magic when Nale snatches a staff. :smallbiggrin:

[everybody0523]

Well, that or Z's standing orders are to always dispel magic when Nale initiates an attack.

It's also possible that Z hates Malack as well (just look his face in panels 6 and 7) and, knowing the same information Nale did (Malack has PFDx2, he used it on Durkon and that Malack is a vampire) used his own judgement as to what would be the best course of action, which in this case was to dispell.

[JCAll]

It's also possible that Z hates Malack as well (just look his face in panels 6 and 7) and, knowing the same information Nale did (Malack has PFDx2, he used it on Durkon and that Malack is a vampire) used his own judgement as to what would be the best course of action, which in this case was to dispell.

You don't need to look at his face, look at his speech bubble. It was normal!

[Killer Angel]

I'm not so fond of Z, but it certainly would deserve some development...

[Lossoth]

You don't need to look at his face, look at his speech bubble. It was normal!

Good catch! That might be the first time Z's spoken in black rather than grey....

[Klear]

Z needs to die fairly soon. He's getting close to the point where he'll be one of the most powerful characters in the comic, and not in a good way. One of the things that holds V back a little is that he doesn't have access to 2 of the best schools. However with Conjuration Z is now in a position to make leaps and bounds ahead of the other characters. He hasn't outlived his usefulness yet, but as he starts to get into 9th level spells it's going to be harder for him to not break fights from the outset. In fairness, some of these problems will start to come into play for V too, and will need to be resolved by ever more powerful monsters, but he's starting to get to that point where his role is problematic (in the "not as strong as Xykon, but smarter and more functional, and better than Redcloak too" mold he's going to be an awkward fit on a team who has mainly been comic relief to this point, and who are supposed to be 2nd stringers).

Duel. With O-Chul.

[Lvl45DM!]

This might not be a perfect analogy because I'm only sort of familiar with Game of Thrones, but...

Game of Thrones spoilers:
Sure Z is smarter probably, but...if anything happened to Tywin in Game of Thrones, does that mean that Littlefinger or Varys should take the reins?

Um. Yes to both. If the first finally got the power he craved he'd stop being so evil and the other one is one of the best people left in the realm.

On topic....no. Z is great as a second string but he's completely lazy and unoriginal unless he's killing V.

[drazen]

I'm sure if V dispelled his flight, Belkar could gut Z solo.

Isn't Belkar fairly useless against anyone with Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0869.html)?

[Lvl45DM!]

Isn't Belkar fairly useless against anyone with Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0869.html)?

Does Z have Hold Person? Its enchantment and to my knowledge he's never cast on of those spells

[Rakoa]

Does Z have Hold Person? Its enchantment and to my knowledge he's never cast on of those spells

As far as the Class and Level Geekery Thread is concerned, you're correct. Zz'dtri hasn't casted any enchantment spells.

[Trickquestion]

I think the reason people (including myself) like Z is because he's kinda like Boba Fett. This mysterious bad guy who isn't quite on the level of the main villains, but just stands around, not saying much and looking cool.

[Kish]

Zz'dtri should be acknowledged for the crucial part he played in destroying the foul Malack.
Then Zz'dtri should be sent right after Malack in pieces, along with Nale. I have hopes that Durkon will arrange it in the next few strips.

[Gift Jeraff]

I think the reason people (including myself) like Z is because he's kinda like Boba Fett. This mysterious bad guy who isn't quite on the level of the main villains, but just stands around, not saying much and looking cool.

I guess that means Durkon is going to accidentally hit him with Malack's staff while fighting Nale and he'll fall into the sand pit with the fiends and elemental. :smalltongue:

[NerdyKris]

I think the reason people (including myself) like Z is because he's kinda like Boba Fett. This mysterious bad guy who isn't quite on the level of the main villains, but just stands around, not saying much and looking cool.

Possibly. But for me, it's because this whole new background information on him was revealed. Before this, he was just another lackey, like Hylga, Pompey, or Leaky. Suddenly it's revealed that he's a long term associate of Nale's. Possibly as long as he's known Sabine. (edit- no, that was the kobold in that flashback scene, not Z) He's apparently loyal enough to follow Nale across the ocean on a quest for the amulet, and then reunite with him over a year later in The Empire of Blood. He's also been shown to be extremely competent in these fights, a far cry from Nale's usual associates who aren't Sabine and Thog.

It's not just Z that I'm finding more interesting. It's the Linear Guild's core members as a whole.

[Tev]

Zz'dtri isn't always prepared for everything. As V's evil opposite, he only prepare spells so that he could overpower V at any time. That also means he is not as prepared as a normal wizard in any situation that V is not involved. In fact, he almost lost to V because of that flaw. The only reason we haven't seen him lost a magic duel is because his very build is tailored to fight against V, and we haven't seen him fight anyone else.

Also - a lot of praise for Z here is thanks to Tier system starting to show which classes are the best (as we're getting into higher levels). Even though Rich tries hard to write around that, still - look again at all fights in recent book - Which classes were crucial for outcome? What duels were most influential? (and it's quite funny how both wiz vs wiz and cleric vs cleric "just btw" took care of other characters)

[Maraxus1]

I think the reason people (including myself) like Z is because he's kinda like Boba Fett. This mysterious bad guy who isn't quite on the level of the main villains, but just stands around, not saying much and looking cool.
HEY, I wanted to make this comparison. ;)

I didn't notice until this thread but it fits very well.

So, Xykon is the Emperor and Redcloak is Darth Vader and ... Don't know, Tarkin is Tarkin except cooler and Nale is maybe a mix of Doku and Grievous and maybe Greedo just not at all or ... I don't know.

But Z is Boba Fett. Silent. Intelligent. Deadly.

[Paseo H]

Um. Yes to both. If the first finally got the power he craved he'd stop being so evil and the other one is one of the best people left in the realm.

On topic....no. Z is great as a second string but he's completely lazy and unoriginal unless he's killing V.

My point is, being smart doesn't necessarily make you leader material, in fact they seem to enjoy their "man behind the man" routine.

[Henry the 57th]

Zz'dtri is a model employee. Loyal, enthusiastic about his job, and willing to go he distance to see it done. Plus, he doesn't talk too much - the bane of many other such employees. Nale is lucky to have him.

[Ill Made Knight]

Being Bobba Fett doesn't really work anymore once you're once of the most powerful characters around. Because then people start asking things like "well if Fett is much stronger than Vader, why is he even working for him as some hired gun? Why isn't Fett the leader?" We're almost at that point with Z.

[Lord Raziere]

because Boba Fett is a bounty hunter and knows jack and squat about leading people in anything.

I mean look at Roy and Vaarsuvius. V is a wizard, and one that could probably kill him with a few blasts, yet Roy is still in charge. would you want V as leader? mr-or-mrs spock McArrogant blows-things-up-to-solve-social-situation who willingly sold his/her soul? or good ol reasonable Roy?

V is unquestionably more powerful than Roy. Roy still leads.

[angry_bear]

because Boba Fett is a bounty hunter and knows jack and squat about leading people in anything.

I mean look at Roy and Vaarsuvius. V is a wizard, and one that could probably kill him with a few blasts, yet Roy is still in charge. would you want V as leader? mr-or-mrs spock McArrogant blows-things-up-to-solve-social-situation who willingly sold his/her soul? or good ol reasonable Roy?

V is unquestionably more powerful than Roy. Roy still leads.

In V's defense, he/she just rented their soul... They didn't actually sell it to the fiends.

Z is pretty interesting, but I have a habit of forming attachments to unimportant, but still cool minor characters in a lot of stuff I enjoy...

[Ill Made Knight]

because Boba Fett is a bounty hunter and knows jack and squat about leading people in anything.

I mean look at Roy and Vaarsuvius. V is a wizard, and one that could probably kill him with a few blasts, yet Roy is still in charge. would you want V as leader? mr-or-mrs spock McArrogant blows-things-up-to-solve-social-situation who willingly sold his/her soul? or good ol reasonable Roy?

V is unquestionably more powerful than Roy. Roy still leads.

V follows Roy because they are the good guys, and Roy has won their respect for his leadership capabilities (and originally because they signed contracts to work for him). It's easy to understand why V follows Roy's leadership, in spite of obviously being the most powerful member of the party. The same doesn't hold for Z. They're the bad guys, what incentive does Z have to follow a guy who has to date been pretty bad at leading, and who is grossly weaker than him? It made sense to play this angle as a joke when Pompey asked Nale why the hell he was following him, but it doesn't for Z. Z is also clearly smarter and more competent than Nale.

Fett neatly fit into his world and made sense (and btw, while I'm not Star Wars fan, a lot of what you just said rings pretty false- Anakin was a great leader, and Fett knows nothing about it? Huh? Not that it matters in this discussion), Z is getting close to the point where he is an awkward fit on the Linear Guild. It would be like Nale leading a team with human Xykon in the background... we'd all be asking ourselves "what a minute, why the heck is human Xykon following this douchebag?"

[WindStruck]

In V's defense, he/she just rented their soul... They didn't actually sell it to the fiends.

Z is pretty interesting, but I have a habit of forming attachments to unimportant, but still cool minor characters in a lot of stuff I enjoy...

Oh, that changes everything and is totally fine then. :smallwink:

[Lord Raziere]

smarter and more competent. maybe. (V has beaten Z aka Mr. relies too heavily on conventional spell tactics twice now, so….Z himself doesn't have that good a track record either. he is in a way, the kind of flawed guy Xykon was talking about: the caster who doesn't realize that power equals power, and still thinks spells equals power)

leader no.

even if Z doesn't follow Nale, he is more likely to join up with Tarquin than be his own leader. for one, Z doesn't talk too much, his communication skills would need a lot of work, and furthermore he would need direction.

I mean, think about it, what direction does Z have? a leader must have a driving goal for what they do, something to work everyone towards and keep them on task about. Z's goal seems mostly to obey Nale and thats it.

it has nothing to do with alignment, it has everything to do with how leadership works

that and leadership isn't about you having the power, its about knowing how to make other people use power for you. look at Shojo. guy doesn't have a pc class and he has to lead a city with lawful evil nobles like Kubota in town, or look at Malack, being a cleric he is technically more powerful than Tarquin ever will be, yet….who is in charge? Tarquin.

heck, look at SoD: Xykon was once not even a big villain- he was once just a serving villain for another one way back, and the villain he served picked both another necromancer AND richard baker over Xykon, even though Richard Baker can't even cast any spells! he put Xykon, despite his strength and power, as a frontline fighter, not fight to lead.

or heck, look at how Redcloak manipulates Xykon everyday- he clearly knows that Xykon is more powerful, but who is really holding the reins here? the brute spellcaster who just blasts everything with force…or the goblin who has organized legions, staged a successful sacking of a city within one day, founded a nation, and has tricked Xykon since day one into following his lead (since it has always been Redcloak's plan, one that Xykon doesn't know the truth about)
sure you can say that Redcloak is powerful to, but really if Redcloak really was more powerful than Xykon, he wouldn't need to go through this sort of trickery would he?
and Xykon, while focused on force, isn't dumb, he is smart is in his own way, even pretends to be charming…he still technically is following Redcloak's lead.

as for Nale leading Xykon….completely different situation there. Z and Xykon are practically opposites, to an extent. and even if we account the evil thing…well we already have an example of two evil characters being loyal to each other despite their power don't we? Malack and Tarquin. evil is not really a thing that permeates all your life y'know. alignment is a big chunk of what you are, but not everything, alignment isn't a straitjacket and all that.

and leadership isn't about wielding the biggest hammer, mostly cause leaders who have to resort to that, can't actually bring down the hammer after a while cause the hammer crushes everything and soon you have nothing to lead because either everyone hates you for whacking things with your hammer, or you destroyed everything with your hammer, either way it doesn't work.

[Ill Made Knight]

Power is power. And spellcasters are more powerful than other classes by and large. That dynamic reminds us of why Z is much more powerful than the rest of his team, and that difference will only be massively exacerbated once Z hits 9th level spells.

This idea Z could do a worse job leading than Nale has frequently done is pretty weak. So far Z seems very competent. We haven't seen much about his personal goals, etc, but anyone halfway competent should be assumed to be a comparable or better leader than Nale (who to date has been pretty awful overall). Not that being a good leader matters when you're evil... we don't know enough about Z's motivations yet, but it is starting to get to that point where it's a problem, because the audience will be asking "why the hell is this uber powerful wizard following this douchebag with negligible positive attributes?

In a few levels, Z will basically be a more competent, less foolish, less powerful version of Xykon. How much less powerful isn't clear either, because Z will be a hell of a lot more optimised than Xykon is (much of what Xykon can do could be countered by a well built Mage with access to 9th level spells). Z will be more powerful than Redcloak once he hits 9th level spells, and it'll start to look really weird that he's standing around in the background doing Nale's bidding. It needs to be resolved, either by Z dying, or his motivations being expounded on.

All your other eg's don't work as analogies. We know why Shojo was leader and it made sense, we know why Xykon started out as a minion, and nothing about his minion status didn't make sense. For all we know his master at the time was more powerful than him (the girl who he was passed over for certainly was treated by him as being comparable and worthy of his respect). We have no indication he served anyone woefully weaker than himself (or even weaker period). The whole reason he quit was because it was insulting to be passed over as leader for some nobody. Even chaotic evil guys like Xykon who just wander around causing trouble have some standards. So your characterisation of him having served Richard Barker is intentionally misleading. He quit rather than serve him, which is the problem we're facing with Z and Nale.

[angry_bear]

Oh, that changes everything and is totally fine then. :smallwink:

I feel like I forgot a smiley emoticon or blue text in my last post... :smalltongue:

Raziere pretty much summed up why I feel Z is working with Nale. Sure Z is more powerful, heck if you think about it, any member of the Linear Guild could trounce Nale in one on one combat. However, it's Nale with the vision, it's Nale who can bring these guys together, and only Nale can do that in the LG.

[Ill Made Knight]

I feel like I forgot a smiley emoticon or blue text in my last post... :smalltongue:

Raziere pretty much summed up why I feel Z is working with Nale. Sure Z is more powerful, heck if you think about it, any member of the Linear Guild could trounce Nale in one on one combat. However, it's Nale with the vision, it's Nale who can bring these guys together, and only Nale can do that in the LG.

Vision? So far Nale has demonstrated appalling vision and leadership, usually chasing petty (and irrelevant) goals of negligible benefit or sense. That was fine when he was leading a team with a moron like Thog, his Girlfriend, a token Kobold with goals as petty as his, and various add on characters who would usually ditch the team on him (after deciding he sucked), but it fails when Z is reintroduced (as a serious character and not a walking pun like in some very silly early comics), and made so powerful he's one of the strongest characters we've seen to date. He's not there yet, but in a few levels he will be. A running theme for characters with any sense (Pompey, Leaky, Hilga), who have their own goals and motivations that might rise above the petty silly ones Nale has had, is that they soon ditch the Guild because they've outgrown it. It remains to be seen how keeping Z long term can be consistent with this previous solution for competent characters on the Guild (as opposed to morons like Thog, blindly supportive girlfriends, or kobolds who are hired for petty reasons and instantly killed off).

[JCAll]

Power is power. And spellcasters are more powerful than other classes by and large. That dynamic reminds us of why Z is much more powerful than the rest of his team, and that difference will only be massively exacerbated once Z hits 9th level spells.

This idea Z could do a worse job leading than Nale has frequently done is pretty weak. So far Z seems very competent. We haven't seen much about his personal goals, etc, but anyone halfway competent should be assumed to be a comparable or better leader than Nale (who to date has been pretty awful overall). Not that being a good leader matters when you're evil... we don't know enough about Z's motivations yet, but it is starting to get to that point where it's a problem, because the audience will be asking "why the hell is this uber powerful wizard following this douchebag with negligible positive attributes?

In a few levels, Z will basically be a more competent, less foolish, less powerful version of Xykon. How much less powerful isn't clear either, because Z will be a hell of a lot more optimised than Xykon is (much of what Xykon can do could be countered by a well built Mage with access to 9th level spells). Z will be more powerful than Redcloak once he hits 9th level spells, and it'll start to look really weird that he's standing around in the background doing Nale's bidding. It needs to be resolved, either by Z dying, or his motivations being expounded on.

All your other eg's don't work as analogies. We know why Shojo was leader and it made sense, we know why Xykon started out as a minion, and nothing about his minion status didn't make sense. For all we know his master at the time was more powerful than him (the girl who he was passed over for certainly was treated by him as being comparable and worthy of his respect). We have no indication he served anyone woefully weaker than himself (or even weaker period). The whole reason he quit was because it was insulting to be passed over as leader for some nobody. Even chaotic evil guys like Xykon who just wander around causing trouble have some standards. So your characterisation of him having served Richard Barker is intentionally misleading. He quit rather than serve him, which is the problem we're facing with Z and Nale.

Now, Z is an incredibly powerful wizard, but in his case Power takes the form of insurmountable Spell Resistance. He's not like V or Xykon, who solve all their problems with progressively bigger fireballs. Z is a support unit. He buffs, debuffs, and teleports. He attacks with flesh to stone, plane shift, and phantasmal killer. And only occasionally will he throw some lightning and acid for direct damage. And then he counts on his SR to shut down more blaster focused casters while staying in the air above the big guys with swords.

And support units have to have people to support.

Aside from his power set, we don't know much about him. Why he does what he does is a mystery. His mystery is half his charm.

[Lord Raziere]

yea you have a point JCA, Z so far, while a smarter wizard than V or Xykon, is a utility support guy. which frankly, is what smart wizards are ABOUT. any person from these boards can tell you that Evocation is the least optimized school there is, mostly because it does what everyone else in the party already does- damage things.

when a wizard is capable of doing so much more. furthermore, I am sort of tired of the unquestioned assumption that all wizards, sorcerers, mages, whatever, are power-hungry scheming jerks willing to do anything to get more.
can't we have a wizard who for once, just does wizardry because its his job? not because of cosmic power or anything, but just because magic is just what he likes to do? I mean I'm not going to assume anything about Z- for all I know he could be looking for cosmic power- but really, why can't we just have a wizard who is just doing their job and does it well? there are different ways to be evil than "power, power, power!" y'know.

and sure, Nale has been- up to this point- incompetent and his goals are mostly just petty revenge. but that is pretty much the goal of everyone in the linear guild. even the lawful good kobold sworn to avenge his father by killing Belkar.
that and keep in mind: the Linear Guild is at least as dysfunctional as the Order.

finally read this: Strip 399 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html) Nale is good at getting evil people together to listen to him, even when its not in their own best interest. even if all three got killed, they'd somehow find a way to get free again.

finally, this a webcomic with a lot of humor in it- everyone has their own flaws and incompetencies by design as a part of the jokes. sure Nale was incompetent, but this incompetence was at least partly played for laughs, while every time he did something competent, it was more serious- like the time he framed Elan and did the switch. the fact the Nale has been able to gather three different teams to follow and execute his plans speaks of at least some competence at leadership, or else he wouldn't be able to assemble them at all.

Don't underestimate how hard it is to get people working together towards one goal, much less get them to follow a plan that when executed well basically ensures victory- and while Nale is bad at improvising around unexpected wrinkles, that speaks more of his improvisational ability than his leadership ability. there are probably plenty of leaders in history whose weakness was their inability to make changes to their plans mid-battle, and it just means that Nale needs to learn what "no plan survives contact with the enemy" means.

Z is cool and all, but leader material? yea, I'm not seeing it, especially when he arguably has the same weakness as Nale- too focused on brilliant conventional tactics, so that when V beats him using something that isn't magic like the first time, or makes a kobold attack Z for V, he doesn't know what to do and panics.

I must remark, wizards being killed by non-magical means is very present in this comic- Z was taken away by lawyers, Xykon almost killed V with a boulder and choking him to death, Fyron was killed by Xykon bludgeoning him to death with his own award, that azure city wizard getting eaten by a big bird cause he was drunk and messed up the teleport, then Z getting attacked by a mind-controlled kobold's arrows and panicking.

what Xykon said about power being power, and not spells being power, is very true in OOTS verse. for some reason I doubt this kind of narrative world would be kind to anyone who tries 3.5 wizard-god shenanigans.

so yeah, Nale. good leader. Z, bad leader. has nothing to do with the spells, just how sociable and good at directing people you are.

[Ill Made Knight]

Z so far, while a smarter wizard than V or Xykon, is a utility support guy. which frankly, is what smart wizards are ABOUT.
1) We have little evidence that Z is only a utility support guy, he seems to have a variety of spells.
2) Smart Wizards of level 15+ should not design themselves to be "utility support" guys, because they're the most powerful frickin character on most teams.


and sure, Nale has been- up to this point- incompetent and his goals are mostly just petty revenge. but that is pretty much the goal of everyone in the linear guild. even the lawful good kobold sworn to avenge his father by killing Belkar.
that and keep in mind: the Linear Guild is at least as dysfunctional as the Order.
Which again contradicts your earlier point... that Nale was a good leader, and Z was somehow a bad one. Based on Nale's leadership to date, it would be hard to find a worse leader. Anyone halfway intelligent should be assumed to be at least as capable at leading... not that this addresses the problem at all. Xykon is a pretty bad leader too... but he's a bad guy, he's not going to follow some weaker loser because they're a "better" leader, he's going to kill said punk for ticking him off. That's what evil generally does. We have no reason to believe Z, who is portrayed as a competent character, should be happy to serve Nale- a far weaker character who you admit is largely incompetent.


what Xykon said about power being power, and not spells being power, is very true in OOTS verse. for some reason I doubt this kind of narrative world would be kind to anyone who tries 3.5 wizard-god shenanigans.
That's an argument for plot being power, not power being power.


so yeah, Nale. good leader. Z, bad leader. has nothing to do with the spells, just how sociable and good at directing people you are.
Being social doesn't prevent or assist leadership when you're evil, because your leadership is largely based on fear and mutual interest, not winning over the support of the other characters. Put it this way- why does Z need guys like Nale, when he can easily summon or create creatures who are far more powerful than Nale? No good reason exists, and as Z gets increasingly powerful this is going to become a problem unless addressed. As for directing people, Nale is pretty terrible at that too.

Just to emphasise how powerful Z is already- the guy has SR of 30+... that's insane. It means a 15th level caster like V has a 30% chance (at best) of penetrating Z's SR and affecting him at all. That's more SR than an Ancient Silver Dragon has. In a few levels Z is going to be one of the most powerful characters we've seen in the comic, potentially as dangerous as Xykon (if he continues to be optimised as he has been to date). How plausible is it such a character would follow Nale for no good reason? It can be explained, but as it stands it'll be weird. Much like if the aged human Xykon was serving Nale, it just stretches credibility a lot.

[ghoul-n]

That's how you fall for drow charms :smalleek:

[Kish]

Power is power. And spellcasters are more powerful than other classes by and large.
You do not appear to have been paying attention to most of that entire diatribe of Xykon's.

[Ill Made Knight]

You do not appear to have been paying attention to most of that entire diatribe of Xykon's.

Xykon is never wrong. ;)

[ghoul-n]

But but, he was using lightning vs ghosts.

[Demolator]

Power is power. And spellcasters are more powerful than other classes by and large.

Ah, but you see, Zz'dtri's power lies not only in his spells, but also in FRIENDSHIP AND LOYALTY! :smallbiggrin: Also sangfroid, Z is easily the most calm and collected of the LG.

As for communicating, I think Z would be great at communicating! He took the time to learn drow sign language just in case he ever needed to talk to a deaf guy or he went deaf or something (like in the pyramid). Sign language takes time and commitment, people! I can't even use human sign language!

[Gift Jeraff]

Regardless of whether Z can lead or not, maybe he doesn't want to. Haley can certainly lead effectively, but she has made it clear that she hates doing so.

It's not like Z loses much by staying with the Linear Guild. Both of his losses have been his own fault (note how many non-Quickened spells V casts compared to Z in both fights), and not permanently removing V was Qarr's fault. It wasn't until Girard's Pyramid that Nale led Z to failure, and even then it was due to something Z also fell for (the double bluff).

Plus, Nale keeps informing Z of sources of great power (Tarquin's resources, the Talisman of Dorukan, and the Gates). I'm sure he appreciates that. And maybe they can appreciate each other's petty sadism.

[Sir_Leorik]

Z is actually the only legitimate "evil opposite".


I'm gonna have to question that.

:roy: : Smart, charismatic, a good leader, who protects people from bullies.

:thog: A stupid (almost child-like) follower, who is a bully.

:elan: A kind and caring person, who only sees the best in others, wants other people to be happy, brave, has a short attention span, isn't that smart, but is aware that he isn't that smart.

:nale: A cruel and vindictive man, who takes offensive at the most innocent of comments made by others, who plots ways to betray other people, cowardly, is capable of making long-term plans which sometimes take years to pay off, is smart, but is not quite as clever as he thinks.

:durkon: Introverted, quiet, honorable and loyal.

Hilgya: Extroverted, brash, dishonorable and disloyal (to Ivan and Nale).

Leeky: Very extroverted, does not have an inside voice, cares more about plants than people, disloyal (to Nale).

Malack: Gregarious, screams out his deity's name when attacking, pays lip service to Nergal's creed, loyal to Tarquin (but only to a point)

:haley: Kind, caring, brave

:sabine: Cruel, manipulative, craven

:belkar: Psychotic Halfling

Yikyik: Psychotic Kobold

Umm, okay, you're right about Belkar and Yikyik. But Yokyok was pretty noble, so Opposites!

[St Fan]

As for communicating, I think Z would be great at communicating! He took the time to learn drow sign language just in case he ever needed to talk to a deaf guy or he went deaf or something (like in the pyramid). Sign language takes time and commitment, people! I can't even use human sign language!

If you allow me to nitpick, but drow sign language is considered rather common pick for drow. When they were introduced in 1st edition Unearthed Arcana, it was part of their basic languages. The motivation behind it wasn't to talk with deaf people, but to allow them to hunt silently in the Underdark and communicate with each other by relying solely on their darkvision (called infravision at the time). It's basically a cultural thing.

[WindStruck]

Ah, but you see, Zz'dtri's power lies not only in his spells, but also in FRIENDSHIP AND LOYALTY! :smallbiggrin: Also sangfroid, Z is easily the most calm and collected of the LG.

As for communicating, I think Z would be great at communicating! He took the time to learn drow sign language just in case he ever needed to talk to a deaf guy or he went deaf or something (like in the pyramid). Sign language takes time and commitment, people! I can't even use human sign language!

Sounds to me like people will start making my little pony caricatures of him soon. :smallyuk:

[Demolator]

Sounds to me like people will start making my little pony caricatures of him soon. :smallyuk:

As much as I hope that never happens, if it did he'd be like, a totally killer Unicorn with all the other ones impaled on his horn.

[Tamari]

Sounds to me like people will start making my little pony caricatures of him soon. :smallyuk:

:smallwink:

http://asdflove.deviantart.com/art/Ponifed-Zz-dtri-326283734

And drawn over a year ago too...

[Rakoa]

I think we should take some time to talk about poor Zz'dtri and his lost teeth.

[Kish]

How lucky for Zz'dtri that Durkon hit him with the staff and Nale with his (negative-energy-charged) fist, rather than the other way around.

[Lvl45DM!]

I'm gonna have to question that.
:elan: A kind and caring person, who only sees the best in others, wants other people to be happy, brave, has a short attention span, isn't that smart, but is aware that he isn't that smart.

:nale: A cruel and vindictive man, who takes offensive at the most innocent of comments made by others, who plots ways to betray other people, cowardly, is capable of making long-term plans which sometimes take years to pay off, is smart, but is not quite as clever as he thinks.

Thats...not how opposites work. Opposites have to be identical but for a key aspect.


How lucky for Zz'dtri that Durkon hit him with the staff and Nale with his (negative-energy-charged) fist, rather than the other way around.

Pretty sure he hit both of them with the stick btw

[MesiDoomstalker]

How lucky for Zz'dtri that Durkon hit him with the staff and Nale with his (negative-energy-charged) fist, rather than the other way around.

I'm pretty sure he hit both of him with the staff. He's a high enough Cleric for Iteratives, and with his new Vampire Strength, against unarmored (or lightly armored) targets, should be pretty easy attack. Theres no undead aura like we see with Malack's Vampire attacks.

[Kish]

Yes, I see that now. (Though there wouldn't be an aura if he did slam Nale, since Nale is protected from negative energy.)

[Sir_Leorik]

How lucky for Zz'dtri that Durkon hit him with the staff and Nale with his (negative-energy-charged) fist, rather than the other way around.

Kish, Durkon made a full-attack with the staff, tripping Nale and knocking some of Zz'Dtri's teeth out.

[Klear]

I don't like Z anymore. Durkon! Durkon!

[Sir_Leorik]

Thats...not how opposites work. Opposites have to be identical but for a key aspect.

Why does it have to be a single aspect? For that matter, don't you need to examine the aspects of a character to determine what his or her opposite would be?

Elan and Nale are identical twins. They are genetically identical, but they were raised in very different ways. Elan grew up in a poor home, raised by a single mother who worked long hours in a tavern. Nale grew up in a succession of palaces, as his father cannily worked behind the scenes, controlling puppet rulers. Nonetheless, Elan's mommy showered love and affection on Elan, and taught him right from wrong; Tarquin spoiled Nale with material goods, but withheld his love (probably to make Nale an effective villain) and the only morals Nale learned from his father were the wrong ones. Elan is not interested in CharOp; he was happy to be a Bard, but he wasn't putting his abilities to their best tactical advantage. Nale lives for CharOp, coming up with a wacky multiclass combo, which leaves him a weak fighter and spellcaster, but able to pull off devastating Sneak Attacks. Nale is a leader, Elan a follower. Nale is arrogant, Elan is humble. Nale is cowardly, Elan is brave. I could keep going. They are complete opposites, despite being outwardly identical.

Nale's goatee isn't for show; it's a reference to Mirror!Spock's goatee in the "Star Trek: TOS" episode "Mirror, Mirror". Mirror!Spock looks almost like Spock, and he shares Spock's logical mindset, but he's basically Tarquin with pointy ears, not a compassionate and inquisitive Vulcan like Spock.

(Also, Mirror!Spock tried to reform the Terran Empire, just like Spock helped arrange the Khitomer Accords. Spock's peace initiative led to detente between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, which ultimately became a full-fledged alliance by the time Worf was a child. Mirror!Spock's attempts at reform were too little, too late, and opened the door for the Klingons to ally themselves with the Cardassians and conquer Earth. So y'know, opposites!)

[SavageWombat]

Yes, I see that now. (Though there wouldn't be an aura if he did slam Nale, since Nale is protected from negative energy.)

Nah, there'd be an aura that wouldn't work, just like with the Slay Living spell.

I suppose we could go back to the Malack/Durkon fight and check.

[Gift Jeraff]

Nah, there'd be an aura that wouldn't work, just like with the Slay Living spell.

I suppose we could go back to the Malack/Durkon fight and check.

When Tsukiko's wights first grabbed her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html), there wasn't an energy draining aura until they took off her ring.

And wow, that was 77 strips ago. I remember thinking that Team Evil chapter was leading up the big, final showdown of the book.

[Rakoa]

Wow...we sure picked the wrong time to start this thread, eh?

[Gift Jeraff]

I guess that means Durkon is going to accidentally hit him with Malack's staff while fighting Nale and he'll fall into the sand pit with the fiends and elemental. :smalltongue:

I was sorta close. >_>

[Kish]

Goodbye, Zz'dtri.

You committed a net positive action for once in your life right before you died.

[SavageWombat]

Loot the corpse! Loot the corpse! He said Nale "pays well!"

[Ill Made Knight]

Good riddance. This solves the problem of Z nicely. He wasn't a character who would really have worked long term, too powerful to be a sidekick.

[Infinite]

It was surprisingly satisfying to see Z dead.

[Rakoa]

Good riddance. This solves the problem of Z nicely. He wasn't a character who would really have worked long term, too powerful to be a sidekick.

Hey you. What the heck you doin' in a thread called "The Zz'dtri Appreciation Thread"?

[Chessgeek]

Legions wept for Malack's destruction and now many cheer for Zz'dtri's... Did he say something to offend you?


I think I over-sympathize with him, but I think he was more a Redcloak than a Xykon in terms of becoming evil. And before anybody tries to debate it with me, I'm sure there's more than enough evidence to the contrary, but I like my version better. "I reject your reality and substitute my own," as it were.
Rest in peace, Zz'dtri.

[Rakoa]

Seems almost as if people are coming to the appreciation thread to cheer for Z's untimely demise. Seems to me that the only reason for that is to stir the pot, so to speak.

[Goosefeather]

RIP extra characters

[NerdyKris]

Nah, I'm bummed. I was hoping for more from him in making the Linear Guild a threat. But having Durkon kill him was a pretty good way of driving home the "Durkon is evil now" point.

[Barsoom]

Let that be a lesson to all - releasing a vampire from his thralldom is best done at respectable distance. Especially when you're a low-constitution Wizard down on hit points.

[WindStruck]

Cmon Nale! Get your worthless butt back here while invisible and recover your buddy's corpse! Must get raise dead in time! :smalleek:

[littlebum2002]

Good riddance. This solves the problem of Z nicely. He wasn't a character who would really have worked long term, too powerful to be a sidekick.

908 strips isn't "long term"?

[Ghost Nappa]

908 strips isn't "long term"?

Depends on what it's out of. 908/1,000 is long term. 908/100,000 is not.

Additionally, Z has only been in two of the arcs and...well we don't know if and when Z will ever return to the land of the living.

Edit: Crazy theory: what if Durkula follows through on the Vamping Z thing? Would that mean Z joins the order? Probably won't happen but I had a thought bubble. Thought I'd share.

[Ill Made Knight]

908 strips isn't "long term"?

Of which Z was barely in any. He was mostly around early on, when the comic was silly and light hearted. His return presented problems long term, which I flagged earlier in this thread. His death is a good way of removing them (especially since even with a raise he just lost a level).

[Quorothorn]

Even though I greatly enjoyed the strip where he met his end (for largely unrelated reasons, mind), Z was a good character and a fine Wizard. Respect.

[Dash]

You know, Nale's comment in the third panel of the previous strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html) seems retrospectively ironic, based on the contrast between what Durkon did to Zz'dtri and what he would have done if he were still his living, Lawful Good self. Especially since this happened because they destroyed Malack.

But yeah. I always found Zz'dtri inexplicably charming, even before he returned for this book. I was sort of banking against him biting it here, especially since he's the first major non-kobold member of the Linear Guild to die. (Unless Thog actually died, too? And unless we're for some reason counting Malack, I guess.) And, naturally, since I didn't want it to happen. Oh well.

[Nettlekid]

I'm still hoping for Hilgya to make a reappearance and Resurrect the original LG (if Thog is dead after all) for the final LG showdown.

[Ranzarock]

I shed a tear for my favorite taciturn drow. I always liked his cool, calm nature. He was kinda like a Boba Fett. I wish we had more backstory on him. RIP Z!

[Shred-Bot]

Depends on what it's out of. 908/1,000 is long term. 908/100,000 is not.

Additionally, Z has only been in two of the arcs and...well we don't know if and when Z will ever return to the land of the living.

Edit: Crazy theory: what if Durkula follows through on the Vamping Z thing? Would that mean Z joins the order? Probably won't happen but I had a thought bubble. Thought I'd share.

Too late to vamp Z, he's already got the X eyes.

Well I guess he could resurrect and then vamp him... he does have the diamonds!

[Teioh]

And I was really enjoying the teamwork between Nale and Z. Nale becomes a good bit less interesting now without Z. Nale continued it by trying to help Z out as well.

Ah well, no I get to root for horrible things to happen to Durkon. Here's hoping a Sunburst to the face. I can't imagine Durk has much of a reflex score.

Door can't go very far though, so maybe Nale can come back and get Z. Even better if Z can later come back and deliver said Sunburst.

[Bluepaw]

RIP

Well played, Goosefeather.

I guess if he can take any posthumous satisfaction in the turn of events, its that he didn't get taken out by Vaarsuvius. "Vampire beat me. Not you."

Now the question is -- when he arrives to the nether planes, he's going to have some choice, if brief, words for Qarr...

[Thrair]

I appreciate Z like a pain in the neck.

...



.... Too soon?

[WindStruck]

I appreciate Z like a pain in the neck.

...



.... Too soon?

Now that one made me turn my head.

[Dash]

Also, as far as resurrection goes:

I would like that, and since he actually seems to care about Zz'dtri I can see Nale attempting to raise the poor drow somehow (although transporting the corpse anywhere from its current location could prove burdensome without Sabine), but I feel like the Order is too savvy to leave Zz'dtri's body there for Nale to pick up later. Hell, they can just chuck it into the rift. Easy, foolproof disposal. And he'd even get the "dignity" of an impromptu burial at sea (i.e. having his body unceremoniously thrown into an ocean).

[TRH]

I would like that, and since he actually seems to care about Zz'dtri I can see Nale attempting to raise the poor drow somehow (although transporting the corpse anywhere from its current location could prove burdensome without Sabine), but I feel like the Order is too savvy to leave Zz'dtri's body there for Nale to pick up later. Hell, they can just chuck it into the rift. Easy, foolproof disposal. And he'd even get the "dignity" of an impromptu burial at sea (i.e. having his body unceremoniously thrown into an ocean).

That seems a bit cruel for any of the Order members except Belkar and Durkula; I don't see it. That said, I might just be desperate to see more Nale and Zz'drti camaraderie. Whatever works, I suppose, although after disposing Malack as befits a bit-part villain, doing the same thing a mere two strips after seems crass to me.

[rs2excelsior]

Best Drow in the comic.

Now he's dead.

RIP.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/ZzdtriNew.png

[Demolator]

Wow...we sure picked the wrong time to start this thread, eh?

...Yup. Well, I guess now it can be the Zz'dtri remembrance thread?

And it was so unexpected too, him actually dying right there. Seeing Nale's reaction was nice, but I might've been reading too much into it.

[HandofCrom]

There are many questions about that drow. Why was he so loyal to Nale? He wouldn't say. Why did he consider V such a nemesis he dedicated his build to counter the yappy elf? He wouldn't say. I expected a confrontation between V and Z, with V demanding answers and Z refusing, but that was brutal.

[ORione]

I could see Nale trying to have Z raised. The second panel makes it sound like he genuinely cares about him. Maybe they were friends, which would explain Z's loyalty to Nale.

Nale might have trouble, though. Considering how long it took to get Roy raised, high level clerics don't grow on trees. Durkon's certainly not going to do it; he's the one who killed Z. And Redcloak doesn't have any reason to raise Z.

[TRH]

Nale might have trouble, though. Considering how long it took to get Roy raised, high level clerics don't grow on trees.

Don't be silly; that sort of thing is only ever a problem for the good guys. :smallwink:

Seriously, though, the main cause for the delay was that Haley took months to leave Azure city and actually go to look for a cleric, and even though every part of the search that could have gone wrong did, it still didn't take all that long. Nale doesn't have any of these constraints, and can go pretty much anywhere to find a cleric, thanks to Sabine's Plane Shift. High-level adventurers are hard to keep dead for a reason, you know.

[1dominator]

Well ass...

[angry_bear]

Don't be silly; that sort of thing is only ever a problem for the good guys. :smallwink:

Seriously, though, the main cause for the delay was that Haley took months to leave Azure city and actually go to look for a cleric, and even though every part of the search that could have gone wrong did, it still didn't take all that long. Nale doesn't have any of these constraints, and can go pretty much anywhere to find a cleric, thanks to Sabine's Plane Shift. High-level adventurers are hard to keep dead for a reason, you know.

Not to mention that Nale already knows a high level druid who can probably do it. And it's a safe bet that Hilgya has been leveling up all this time as well.

I kind of doubt that Z will be raised though. It'd be interesting if that happened, but I don't see it happening...

[Angband]

Now that one made me turn my head.

Oooh, snap!

[JCAll]

Dammit, there goes the best character in the Linear Guild. Here's hoping for a Resurrection.

EDIT: Hey Imp! Go back with a knife and get with the head chopping! If it's a good enough plan for V...

[Goosefeather]

Oooh, snap!

Now that's just twisted! :smallwink:

[Ill Made Knight]

If Z's body is destroyed, they'd need a 17th level Cleric to resurrect him. Good luck with that.

[Nilehus]

Oooh, snap!

This is supposed to be a serious thread. Cut it with the snappy comments.

:smalltongue:

[Emulgator]

Hope for a res and revenge.

Until then I'll miss our cool silent drow.

[Klear]

This is supposed to be a serious thread. Cut it with the snappy comments.

:smalltongue:

I wondered if this thread already reacted to Z's death, and it seems to be going ahead at breakneck speed!

[gerryq]

Poor Z. I'll miss his lovely innocent smile when he's about to kill someone.

[Killer Angel]

Well, now we can appreciate the epicness of his death... Count Durkon was brutally quick and efficient, I must say. :smallbiggrin:

[Rakoa]

I'm willing to bet The Giant is sitting around, scratching his head, and thinking, "Why the heck do so many people care about that elf who says nothing??"

[Tiiba]

I think it is possible that Nale and Z go back far enough that Nale would actually grieve a bit, but I won't be too surprised if he does nothing. When he lost his wizard the first time, he didn't seem too concerned - he just got another.

[Rakoa]

I think it is possible that Nale and Z go back far enough that Nale would actually grieve a bit, but I won't be too surprised if he does nothing. When he lost his wizard the first time, he didn't seem too concerned - he just got another.

Was Nale as surprised as we were at Zz'dtri's return? Because I had assumed he knew that Z was infiltrating Tarquin's place, and so got another Wizard to fill in temporarily. Not that he shrugged and tossed away Z like a piece of trash.

[WindStruck]

This is supposed to be a serious thread. Cut it with the snappy comments.

:smalltongue:
Oh c'mon now, no need to get all hot under the collar. :smallbiggrin:


I'm willing to bet The Giant is sitting around, scratching his head, and thinking, "Why the heck do so many people care about that elf who says nothing??"
Probably because he was cute as a stick figure.

[Rakoa]

It's time to crack down on all these puns.

[TRH]

It's time to crack down on all these puns.

I know; a real pain in the neck, aren't they?

[WindStruck]

People just need a break from all the sadness, is all. :smallwink:

[Thrair]

This is supposed to be a serious thread. Cut it with the snappy comments.

:smalltongue:

I prefer to call them wise-cracks.

*EDIT* And I think Durkon's alignment has.... turned around.

[Holammer]

OP really nailed it and his/her post was a fine eulogy to a character that deserved more recognition. I see him in a new light now. But in the world of OotS nothing remains dead unless the giant explicitly says so. :smallwink:

If he comes back I'll appreciate him more.

[WindStruck]

Don't get all choked up just yet people! :smallsmile:

[konradknox]

Don't get all choked up just yet people!

Well, this thread sure took a 180 degrees turn. :smallwink:


And that's why Z was not a main class villain. Too weak on the spine.

[Lord Raziere]

hey, I think I see some potential here.

Z is killed right? and he is evil right?

therefore, he will probably appear on the lower planes, and will see V…

well maybe. wonder if they did, how they would interact?

:vaarsuvius::…
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/ZzdtriNew.png: Hi.
:vaarsuvius:: …
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/ZzdtriNew.png: Ironic No?
:vaarsuvius::… :smallannoyed:

and since Z is V's opposite, that means he will be staying in the lower planes permanently while he sees V soon go back to her body unharmed. ouch.

:vaarsuvius:...:smallamused: *goes back up to prime material*
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/ZzdtriNew.png: … :smallfrown:

[Klear]

Well, this thread sure took a 180 degrees turn. :smallwink:


And that's why Z was not a main class villain. Too weak on the spine.

This cracked me up. Good thing Durkon killing Z didn't drain all the fun from this thread. That would have sucked.

[Trickquestion]

Dang, my Boba Fett analogy was a little more accurate then I would have liked.:smallfrown:

Rest in piece Z. You truly were the best drow.

Plays Amazing Grace on a kazoo.

[Infinite]

When I think about it harder... yes. I'm gonna miss Z. There could've been some really epic stuff left for him.

RIP

[Mike Havran]

Aww. I liked you, Zz'dtri. You were the underappreciated, the quick joke about the guys who don't speak much. You were the prime reason to take the Guild seriously. The very reason Nale actually stood a chance against Malack ...just about anything. You showed us that a wizard can be both powerful and non-boasting at the same time. You were the loyal employee who likes his job. You managed to come back from the helliest of hells, you came back from the deep abyss of abandonment, you managed to escape the lawyers and their creed. And you know you do something right when after every single good-spirited smile of yours you get dozens of people saying it's gorgeous.

So, Zz'dtri. Don't rest in peace. Get a raise and kick some ass :smallsmile:

[luc258]

So goes Zz'dtri from us, an elf of few words who always stood up to copyright terror. He will be missed.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Once I finished reading strip 906, I had an epiphany: I haven't appreciated Zz'dtri nearly as much as I should have! Normally, when most of us talk about how much we like villains on here we're all like Omagawd Xykon or Omagawd Redcloak or Omagawd Familicidal V! Today though, I'm having a moment where I'm like Omagawd Zz'dtri!

It's a real shame Zz'dtri isn't leading the Linear Guild. Nale may be a bit less incompetent than we all thought, but I think things would have gone a lot better if Zz'dtri was in charge from the get-go. Nale may be alright at making overly complicated plans (that always go awry), but Zz'dtri ALWAYS COMES PREPARED.

Who turned Celia to stone because he knew not to leave loose ends? Zz'dtri. Who countered all V's spells and would've won if something totally unforseen didn't happen? Zz'dtri. Who spied on the order and discovered they were coming to the EoB so they could plan an unexpected ambush? Zz'dtri. Who appeared EXACTLY when the time was right and wrecked V in a magic fight and even when almost defeated from something unexpected pulled his final trick and would have had his nemesis tortured forever if not lied to by an imp? That's right, ZZ'DTRI.

Another thing that makes Zz'dtri so great is that he's a good friend. When Zz'dtri was taken away by those lawyers (those fiends!), I bet a lot of us thought we'd never see him again. I bet Nale and Sabine and Thog thought so too. But when Z popped up again in the empire, loyal as ever to Nale (he never even stopped (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0789.html) working for him all those strips he was absent!) That takes dedication, even when all of Nale's schemes were failing. In fact, every time the Linear Guild attacks, Nale and Sabine usually get pretty roughed up, as well as Thog (to a lesser extent, except for 808 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html)), Zz'dtri barely ever even gets scratched besides 802 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0802.html), and as far as I can recall he has never lost a magic duel. Even in 802 though, he still won (kind of) by taking V out of the mortal plane (although it wasn't the right plane, but he had no way of knowing)! Point is, Zz'dtri knows what he's doing. Once Nale threw Malack's staff away, Zz'dtri was just right on it, making him vulnerable to sunlight, allowing Nale to go in for the kill (because Zz'dtri was cool like that and knew that this was really Nale's fight).

It's a real shame Z's in the Linear Guild, actually, in terms of Z being an antagonist. Usually when I see the Linear Guild come up in panels I'm like "Lol guys it's those bumbling rival antagonists," and I don't even think the Order takes them as seriously as they used to (at least Elan doesn't), but I think that if Z wasn't taking orders from Nale, he'd be something to worry about. Like, when team evil left and Redcloak summoned the sand monster, the order would be about that worried if Z was his own antagonist and he confronted them.

So yeah, it's not hard to see that Zz'dtri is a total beast. Look at him (sorry, couldn't find a Z smilie, which is weird because he's so greathttp://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/ZzdtriNew.pngThanks, Gift.), he's dependable, powerful, organized, a loyal friend, perhaps the most competent member of the LG, and he's even protected speech! He could probably hold his own against the order any day, and he's probably one of the best underestimated villains of ALL TIME. :smallcool:

Z was always my favorite LG (Apart from Nale) for the same reason that V is my favorite OOts apart from Roy, there is something going on there which is entirely different. Also he seems to be rather loyal to Nale, when Nale was put into the fantasy world, it was Z who kept trying to get him out. I was really sad that he died, because I thought we could find out what is going on with him.

[WindStruck]

Well, this thread sure took a 180 degrees turn. :smallwink:

And that's why Z was not a main class villain. Too weak on the spine.

My what a coincidence! So did Zz'dtri's neck!

Okay, maybe I should stop now. Or at some point. Maybe when I can't think of any new jokes. :smallbiggrin:

[CowardlyPaladin]

Vision? So far Nale has demonstrated appalling vision and leadership, usually chasing petty (and irrelevant) goals of negligible benefit or sense. That was fine when he was leading a team with a moron like Thog, his Girlfriend, a token Kobold with goals as petty as his, and various add on characters who would usually ditch the team on him (after deciding he sucked), but it fails when Z is reintroduced (as a serious character and not a walking pun like in some very silly early comics), and made so powerful he's one of the strongest characters we've seen to date. He's not there yet, but in a few levels he will be. A running theme for characters with any sense (Pompey, Leaky, Hilga), who have their own goals and motivations that might rise above the petty silly ones Nale has had, is that they soon ditch the Guild because they've outgrown it. It remains to be seen how keeping Z long term can be consistent with this previous solution for competent characters on the Guild (as opposed to morons like Thog, blindly supportive girlfriends, or kobolds who are hired for petty reasons and instantly killed off).

He is a good commander but he is able to organize a large number of people who otherwise wouldn't work together to obey his orders, despite many reasons for them not too. That is a talent in itself, if Xykon wasn't an epic level Lich he would find himself in trouble because nobody WANTS to work for him.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Of which Z was barely in any. He was mostly around early on, when the comic was silly and light hearted. His return presented problems long term, which I flagged earlier in this thread. His death is a good way of removing them (especially since even with a raise he just lost a level).


Considering the Giant has consistently said, over and over again he doesn't care about optimization, and most of his characters are not optimized in the least, i don't think that this is an actual problem. I think its a pity because Z could have been an interesting character.

By the way, I think its interesting how upset Nale got when Z died, almost like he cared. Could just be practicality.

[Paseo H]

Z was interesting because he was mysterious. His demeanor prompted people to speculate what was going on inside his head, also searching for clues from other context like his interactions with V and Nale.

At least, unlike Boba Fett, he actually freaking did stuff occasionally.

[Klear]

My what a coincidence! So did Zz'dtri's neck!

Okay, maybe I should stop now. Or at some point. Maybe when I can't think of any new jokes. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, if you can't think of any more, just stop. If you canm though, get cracking!