Paladin and Explosive Runes

[FrankLuke]

Let's say there is a paladin with an explosive rune "grenade" (a page with explosive runes written on them). During a fight, the paladin used this page on a enemy, one with low WIS. She threw the paper at the black knight who opened the wad and read the page. BOOM.

I've since been rolling it over in my head. Obviously, this isn't enough to make her fall, but some say it was sneaky and underhanded and not something a paladin would do. Would this count as a dishonorable act?

Here's the rest of the situation. Another paladin was down and out of the fight. It had started as an honorable duel but this second paladin was wounded badly going in. When the black knight knocked P2 out, a dashing swordsman (chaotic good) jumped in as the second and challenged the black knight. When the knight accepted, the swordsman drew a flintlock pistol and shot the knight in the arm. There are two other members of the PC party, making 5 total.

The black knight had reinforcements coming, but the party didn't know how many. P1 spotted one of them coming down the hill and threw the EPG at the black knight. That turned out to be all that was coming. The BK read the paper, took enough damage to lose consciousness, and the new arrival beat a hasty retreat with the wounded black knight.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I don't see why it's that much worse than throwing a bead from a Necklace of Fireballs or something. "Honorable" doesn't mean stupid. If you'd planted the page in his diary or something so that it was a trap, sure, but this was in combat...

[Galvin]

That would not make the paladin fall, though the paladin may not do that in the first place. Because that does seem sneaky to me, though it is most certainly not enough for the paladin to FALL.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Paladin's are allowed tactics beyond frontal assault

[Segev]

It might be out of character for some paladins, but not for all. Lawful doesn't mean "stick in the mud," and Good doesn't mean "unwilling to fight to win." It is little different than tossing a grenade-like weapon at a fighter with a low reflex save. Just an effective tactic against a given enemy, and mildly funny to boot.

[Thrair]

Paladin's are allowed tactics beyond frontal assault

This.


Given it was supposed to be a duel, it was a little dishonourable and underhanded, but it sounds like by this point the situation had degenerated back into regular combat.

On top of that, it takes either a BIG screwup to Fall, or a consistent course of poor behavior. (At least, with a reasonable DM).



I'd say the only issue with this is if you're a Paladin of a deity that stresses honor and forthright behavior (such as Iomedae in Pathfinder), in which case you might need to seek an Atonement spell if you keep it up.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'm actually questioning why the Black Knight read it in the first place. How low was his Wisdom, exactly? Common sense dictates that you go after the greater threat - you don't say "ooh, shiny!" in the middle of a fight.

[Thrair]

I'm actually questioning why the Black Knight read it in the first place. How low was his Wisdom, exactly? Common sense dictates that you go after the greater threat - you don't say "ooh, shiny!" in the middle of a fight.

*middle of battle* "thog just thinking of funny joke thog learn from guards." *tells joke*

[McStabbington]

I'm actually questioning why the Black Knight read it in the first place. How low was his Wisdom, exactly? Common sense dictates that you go after the greater threat - you don't say "ooh, shiny!" in the middle of a fight.

Good is not dumb, but this Black Knight? Is.

I don't see it as particularly dishonorable. A paladin is supposed to be trained in warfare and combat, and combat is very much about using the tools available to you to best effect. This was just exploiting the foolhardiness of his opponent.

[FrankLuke]

Thanks, guys. As I said, I knew it wasn't a fall worthy issue, but was wondering about it being detrimental.

I wasn't playing either paladin, I had one of the two PCs in the back.

Helen (P1) has mentioned a few times in the course of play that not all paladins are sticks in the mud.

ETA: The dumbness of the black knight can be expressed this way. He doesn't refer to himself in the third person, he refers to everyone else in the third person. Probably the most annoying character trait I have ever see.

"The knight falls again. Even as he clambers to his feet, he bleeds."
"The swordsman challenges me? He wears no armor, and his blade is flimsy. He will not last against me."

[OOPWER]

I'm not certain as to the rules concerning paladin behavior in Pathfinder, but 3.5 has the Shadowbane Inquisitor: A paladin willing and capable of using stealth, backstabs, and "SURPRISE HOLINESS" to vanquish evil.

So, like everybody said: Paladins are allowed more than a frontal assault. ==>They can have the backstabs too.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the Shadowbane Inquisitor is a prestige class from Complete Adventurer, in case you are unfamiliar with it.

[Slipperychicken]

I've since been rolling it over in my head. Obviously, this isn't enough to make her fall, but some say it was sneaky and underhanded and not something a paladin would do. Would this count as a dishonorable act?


It happened in battle, so I'd say it wasn't dishonorable. You may defeat your opponent in whatever way is best, as long as you do no evil. You may sneak, feint, trip, dodge, fake-out, grab, ambush, retreat, lay traps, and so on without fear of falling.

However, if you attack with a serious risk of causing preventable harm to innocents/noncombatants (like if you give the rune to the enemy while they're using human shields), or intentionally deceive others regarding your identity and intentions (like if you dress up as a courier, then attack him instead of giving him a message), then that's dishonorable.

If you mailed the explosive rune to him outside battle in the guise of a harmless message, or whacked him while he was having a picnic with his family, that would be dishonorable (not a gross violation, but a small one). In battle where your hostile intent is known, I consider the explosive runes thing "fighting dirty" like feinting or groin-kicking, but acceptable behavior for a Paladin's mortal struggle against evil. It's neutral; not exactly the epitome of honorable combat, but not dishonorable either.

[Twilightwyrm]

Well, the Paladin didn't lie to him. He threw a page at the Black Knight, an obviously hostile action. In this respect, throwing this page at him was no more dishonorable than throwing a bottle of Alchemist's Fire, which misses, but then the Black Knight picks it up and opens it to find out what is inside, because it it's clearly labeled as Alchemist's Fire.