Pathfinder: please help with feats, I have a big responsibility

[Mathemagician7]

Hey playgrounders, just looking for some advice on my feats. I'm starting a new campaign soon and I have a big job - everyone else is playing a Big Stupid Fighter of one sort or another and I'm going mystic theurge (with a few gifts from the DM) to do ALL the magic. Thanks in advance!

[Mathemagician7]

We are all starting at level 4.

I'm a middle-aged dwarf (emypreal) sorc. 22 wisdom.
str 6, dex 13, con 14, int 14, cha 6
As soon as we level up I'm going with 1 level of cleric (love subdomain & curse subdomain).
By special DM permission, I get to go into MT at level 6, despite not having 2nd level divine spells (Hooray!).
I'm maxing perception, sense motive, heal & survival to take advantage of my ludicrous wisdom.

My sorcerer spells known will be:
Grease, Silent Image, Bless(bonus from bloodline), and one other (TBD) at first level,
Glitterdust at second level.

The other party members are a barbarian, a fighter/paladin (going holy vindicator - don't ask me why), and a rogue who prioritized strength and wears heavy armor, and then the last guy is going to be an actual fighter.

What should I take for my feats? particularly my first two, which I will start the game with?

[joca4christ]

I may be totally missing something, but shouldn't your charisma be much higher than 6 to be a sorc?

If I were going to go mystic theurge, I'd do oracle/sorc. You got one stat to play with for casting, instead of having MAD. (However, I'm no optimizer, so there is probably a way to swap stats that I don't know about.)

Look into traits. I think there is one out there that also caster levels to be increased, helping you get those high level spell later.

Good luck!

[Mathemagician7]

the bloodline I'm using solves the MAD problem by giving me Wisdom as my casting stat. So I'll have a +6 to both casting classes, and to my domain power from the love subdomain . . . . it's basically an immediate action sanctuary effect, but because my wis is so high, I can do it 9 times per day and it has a DC 17 will save. I'm going to try to avoid being a target, but that should help when I can't. This character is super SAD. . . with that power I might as well be using wisdom for AC, and in the case of targeted spells, instead of my saves, too.

That said, what feats do you recommend?

P.S. I don't think my DM is allowing traits, or I would be all over those, but thanks for the suggestion!

[Mathemagician7]

Oh, one other thing. My DM is allowing two home-brew feats that I made/changed, which I am strongly considering taking (but not until at least level 5 and higher). I posted about them in the Home-brew section:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15726605#post15726605

[Sajiri]

Do you allow 3.5 content? I'm no optimizer, but this might be useful.

http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/practiced-spellcaster--2231/

[watchwood]

Metamagic and crafting feats are often a caster's friends. Spell Penetration and Combat Casting are both going to be useful, especially being the only caster in the party. You'll also want to look into ways to jack up your effective caster level.

If you end up being a primary healer, looking into healing boosting abilities suck as mystical healer.

You focus should be on whatever your party lacks. This will likely be on healing, crowd control, and debuffs.

[Mathemagician7]

I fully expect to be primary healer. That said, I am also going to attempt to focus on battlefield control. Hence grease and glitterdust. I will be taking slow as my first 3rd level arcane spell known.

I'm planning to eventually take the persistent spell (pathfinder version) metamagic feat, and my homebrew blood-magic feat to use it by spending HP instead of higher level slots, so that my debuffs stick.

My DM tends to use undead more than most, so it's important that I not focus on enchantments and cold spells and such.

That said, I'm picking up cleric casting because sooner or later someone's going to get diseased, poisoned, cursed, blinded . . . etc . . .

There's no real backup for me though, I don't even think anyone is planning to have UMD. I need to keep this team alive.

Thanks for the suggestions - I was thinking about combat casting and improved initiative - but I'm really not sure

[Serpentarius]

Oh, one other thing. My DM is allowing two home-brew feats that I made/changed, which I am strongly considering taking (but not until at least level 5 and higher). I posted about them in the Home-brew section:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15726605#post15726605
Well, with that Blood Metamagic beat, wouldn't Toughness be must-have?

[137beth]

I will be taking slow as my first 3rd level arcane spell known.

NO! Take Haste, it is far, far more effective, does not allow a save, and it gets better the more Big Stupid Fighters you have in the group. Take haste ASAP.

[Blyte]

I suggest playing a samsaran witch over mystic theurge. You will scale in power much faster and with mystic past life, you can round out the spell list nicely, giving them the same mystic thuerge feel. collect pearls of power to give yourself a bigger volume of spells per day.

[navar100]

Combat Casting, because you will find yourself in threatened areas a lot more often than you want.

Improved Initiative is nice, to help get that debuff or area control spell out first.

Extend Spell, if only for the Mage Armor spell.

Silent Spell, if interested in using the Silence spell as a combat tactic against enemy spellcasters.

Toughness, maybe, for the hit points. Not a must have, but not a never have either.

[Squirrel_Dude]

If you don't have the trait that boosts your caster level in for a specific class, swap something out to get it. I can't remember what it's named, give me a sec.

*Edit 1: Damn, your DM isn't allowing them? I'll try to find the name of it anyway, just in case.
*Edit 2: Magical Knack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-knack)




Extend Spell, if only for the Mage Armor spell.
It's also handy for a couple of other spells:
- Rope Trick
- Magic Weapon, Greater
- Darkvision
- Alarm

You know, those kind of spells. The ones where you would really like only having to cast them one time a day.

[Mathemagician7]

navar100: Combat casting, imp init, are top contenders already.
extend is a thought, but I'm not a wizard, and the spells I'm planning to pick may not warrant that.

Silent spell is good idea - one I hadn't considered, since I will have cleric casting and thus, access to the silence spell. an interesting thought. Thanks for the suggestion.

Toughness is better for me than most casters, since I may be taking that homebrew feat 'blood magic' and using HP to get 'free' metamagic. Another good suggestion. Thank you.

Squirrel Dude, thanks for the suggestions. I would def take Magical Knack if I could. That said, I'm not planning to learn mage armor, rope trick, alarm, or darkvision (dwarf).

To all: I really want the focus of my arcane side to be on debuff/crowd control. Using the curse subdomain I will have a pretty effective way to lower enemy saves, and I'm starting with a +6 to my casting stat, so my save DCs will be quite respectable.

I'm going to focus on mass save-or-suck spells - so grease, glitterdust, and then slow. Then I just let my BSFs mop up the blinded, staggered, tripped foes.

Normally I would just learn stinking cloud instead of slow, take spell focus conjuration, and call it a day . . . but I expect to face a lot of undead, who are immune to stinking cloud.

Should I take spell focus transmutation? I'm going to be getting free Persistent Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/persistent-spell-metamagic), but what else can I do to make sure my debuffs stick?

[Squirrel_Dude]

Silent spell is good idea - one I hadn't considered, since I will have cleric casting and thus, access to the silence spell. an interesting thought. Thanks for the suggestion. Personally, unless you're more of an illusionist or enchanter, I don't find silent spell all that useful. I'm personally a much bigger fan of still spell.


Squirrel Dude, thanks for the suggestions. I would def take Magical Knack if I could. That said, I'm not planning to learn mage armor, rope trick, alarm, or darkvision (dwarf). You'll want mage armor and rope trick. The others are more of examples. Mage Armor is the equivalent of a chain shirt, and is as good as a 16,000 gold magic item. Rope Trick is nice because it will let your party have the 15 minute adventuring day.


To all: I really want the focus of my arcane side to be on debuff/crowd control. Using the curse subdomain I will have a pretty effective way to lower enemy saves, and I'm starting with a +6 to my casting stat, so my save DCs will be quite respectable.

I'm going to focus on mass save-or-suck spells - so grease, glitterdust, and then slow. Then I just let my BSFs mop up the blinded, staggered, tripped foes.

Normally I would just learn stinking cloud instead of slow, take spell focus conjuration, and call it a day . . . but I expect to face a lot of undead, who are immune to stinking cloud.

Should I take spell focus transmutation? I'm going to be getting free Persistent Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/persistent-spell-metamagic), but what else can I do to make sure my debuffs stick?Transmutation buffs your allies. Conjuration and Necromancy control and debuff your enemies (and gives you temp HP). You'll want Spell Focus(Necromancy) + Thanatopic Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/thanatopic-spell-metamagic) if you're going to be dealing with undead and want to debuff enemies.

"What you thought you were immune to enervation? Sucks to be you."

[Mathemagician7]

Squirrel dude - you're not wrong. That said, slow has a special place in my heart. It's available early (only 3rd level), It affects tons of targets, it's safe to use around allies, and it affects any creature type. It affects flyers just as well as monsters stuck on the ground, it's good against groups, and it's good against a BBEG. The spell is just crippling. Yes, casters are still a problem, especially divine casters (higher will saves), but no single spell makes casters NOT a problem (except feeblemind :smallbiggrin: , but that's not until 4 levels later). It also lowers their reflex saves, so I can conserve high level slots by throwing grease at slowed targets and laugh as they fall like stooges.

I'm starting at 4th level. And I'm multiclassing . . . and my arcane side comes from sorc, not wizard . . . so I've really shot myself in the foot in terms of casting progression. I need to find a low level spell that I can get married to and ride for a good portion of the game. We may never get to the sorts of levels where thanatopic spells are even an option. I think the DM said he expects us to get to 13ish . . . by which point I'll have just learned my first 6th level spell.

If we do get that high, spell focus transmutation wouldn't be a total waste because there's always flesh to stone or disintegrate . . . or what about the transmute rock to mud then mud to rock? Clearly sub-optimal choices . . . but If I have spell focus & greater in transmutation, I could at least milk them for a little it more.

I love thanatopic enervations as much as the next guy - probably more - but I don't think I'll ever get high enough to cast one.

[Hobosub]

I need to find a low level spell that I can get married to and ride for a good portion of the game.
Ray of Enfeeblement (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/ray-of-enfeeblement) much? :)

Or if you're also doing things outside the CRB, Vanish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/vanish) might be a nice option. It's the cheaper version of invis. Great to get out tight spots.

If you're working together with a barbarian, you can supercharge his attack or will/fort save for one roll with Moment of Greatness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/moment-of-greatness)

When it comes to healing without having to worry about any risk, you can always get
Spectral Hand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/spectral-hand) or Reach Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/reach-spell-metamagic)

With regards to annoying spellcasters with feats, there's always Disruptive Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/disruptive-spell-metamagic). Keep in mind the caster level is part of a concentration check, so while great at low levels, it loses its uses at higher levels.

[Mathemagician7]

Ray of Enfeeblement (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/ray-of-enfeeblement) much? :)

Or if you're also doing things outside the CRB, Vanish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/vanish) might be a nice option. It's the cheaper version of invis. Great to get out tight spots.

If you're working together with a barbarian, you can supercharge his attack or will/fort save for one roll with Moment of Greatness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/moment-of-greatness)

When it comes to healing without having to worry about any risk, you can always get
Spectral Hand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/spectral-hand) or Reach Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/reach-spell-metamagic)

With regards to annoying spellcasters with feats, there's always Disruptive Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/disruptive-spell-metamagic). Keep in mind the caster level is part of a concentration check, so while great at low levels, it loses its uses at higher levels.


Thanks for the suggestions. Ray of enfeeblement has been nerfed in pathfinder, lasting only 1/10th as long and allowing a fort save for half. May attack bonus is not very good, but my save DCs are high, so I'm better off using spells with saving throws - like grease. Also, undead are immune to ray of enfeeblement , now that it allows a fort save. Grease has the potential to be multi-target, whereas the ray is single target.

Vanish is probably a really good idea. I think I may pick that up.

I had been planning to hold off on spectral hand until I could learn calcific touch: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/calcific-touch
but using it to heal is really clever - I like that. I may have to grab it sooner.

Good idea - thanks!

I don't think moment of greatness is enough bang for the buck. If there were a bard in the party and I could give everyone a boost, sure - but 1 boost to 1 roll for the barb only? not worth a spell known to me.

What about feats? Any ideas?

[Katana1515]

Hmm well as the only caster your probably going to be relied on by the party to fulfil the role of Item Crafter (though always check with the DM for these as their not suitable for campaigns with little downtime) but item crafting feats are fun and your collection of BSFs will love you for it. craft wondrous item as a minimum is a great and flexible.

Spell focus is passable if your relying on Save DC spells and since your theurging might be doubly helpful as you wont get access to high level (and hence higher level DCs) as fast as a straight caster.

metamagic feats are a staple but again, having lower level spells limits you from making best use until very high level. but spell penetration is a great pick, with cleric levels consider DMM tricks maybe?

[Mathemagician7]

Hmm well as the only caster your probably going to be relied on by the party to fulfil the role of Item Crafter (though always check with the DM for these as their not suitable for campaigns with little downtime) but item crafting feats are fun and your collection of BSFs will love you for it. craft wondrous item as a minimum is a great and flexible.

Spell focus is passable if your relying on Save DC spells and since your theurging might be doubly helpful as you wont get access to high level (and hence higher level DCs) as fast as a straight caster.

metamagic feats are a staple but again, having lower level spells limits you from making best use until very high level. but spell penetration is a great pick, with cleric levels consider DMM tricks maybe?

Crafting is probably a good idea. . .
I think there may be a good amount of time spent on ships (the world has lots of islands scattered in a large sea/ocean) which would be perfect for crafting. The DM is pretty stingy about making magic items available, too.

DMM probably won't work for me, since my charisma is in the toilet, and I doubt my DM would allow them (he's seen me abuse it before), fortunately he's allowing me use a homebrew feat: Blood Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295277)
to get metamagic effects on my spells. I plan to use persistent spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/persistent-spell-metamagic) a lot to make my debuffs stick.

[Mathemagician7]

Thanks for all your valuable insights! I have decided on my feats:

Free Bonus: eschew materials (sorc)
1: Improved initiative (going first = win)
3: Craft Wondrous (to boost my wisdom, among other things, to boost save DCs)
5: Heighten (prereq for blood magic, and I want my save DCs sky high)
7:Blood Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295277)
meta-magic without spending higher level slots
9: persistent spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/persistent-spell-metamagic)
for even harder to beat debuffs/crowd control
11:quicken spell . . . do I need to explain that one?
13: whatever (we probably won't get this high)
15: Spell perfection (Just in case we do get this high)

Thanks guys and gals! :smallsmile: