[Dark Heresy] Minor balance ranting

[Longes]

Hi, everyone!
I'm begining to play in a Dark Heresy game as a Darkholder void-born Psyker, and the GM banned me from taking:

Living nightmare (I've been lucky and got a 19 on WP roll, LN would put me at 54 WP)
Distort vision

There's also been a discussion about telekinesis discipline being OP.
Are Psykers that unbalanced so I can't pick optimal things for them?

Also, what do the cybernetic eyes you get from sanctioning give you?

[Tome]

Psykers are very, very good. Too good, almost.

Right up until they perils, turn into a Daemon and end the game in a massive TPK.

[Yuki Akuma]

Common-quality cybernetic senses... do nothing. They let you see as if you had real eyes.

If you want to pay the cost to get them upgraded to Good quality, they'll grant you Heightened Senses (Vision) and give a +20 bonus to tests made to resist attacks against your eyesight.

You can also incorporate stuff like telescopic sights, a photo-visor, and other stuff, but again, you'll need to pay for those separately. On their own, cybernetic eyes are just... eyes.

[Longes]

If you want to pay the cost to get them upgraded to Good quality, they'll grant you Heightened Senses (Vision) and give a +20 bonus to tests made to resist attacks against your eyesight.

You can also incorporate stuff like telescopic sights, a photo-visor, and other stuff, but again, you'll need to pay for those separately. On their own, cybernetic eyes are just... eyes.

How much does it cost? I have a whooping fortune of 120 thrones :smallcool:

[Yuki Akuma]

To upgrade to Good-quality? 4,500 thrones.

This is not something you start the game with. :smallwink:

A telescopic sight would cost... something like 35 thrones, going by standard rules, although in this case considering it would apply to all of your attacks it might be higher. Talk to your GM about that.

Photo-visors cost 100 thrones and I don't see any particular game-breaking advantage to having one grafted directly to your eyes, but again, you should talk to your GM about incorporating one.

[Destro_Yersul]

Hi, everyone!
I'm begining to play in a Dark Heresy game as a Darkholder void-born Psyker, and the GM banned me from taking:

Living nightmare (I've been lucky and got a 19 on WP roll, LN would put me at 54 WP)
Distort vision

There's also been a discussion about telekinesis discipline being OP.
Are Psykers that unbalanced so I can't pick optimal things for them?

Yes. Yes they are. I have a standing rule that in my games, the next person to make a Darkhold Psyker with Living Nightmare will be shot. Even a Darkhold Psyker is pushing it. The problem arises from the fact that the core rules are not clear on whether or not Psychic attacks can be dodged (I say if they roll to hit, they can), and from the fact that there are several ways that only psykers are capable of breaking the system (Precision Telekinesis, for example, is technically capable of allowing you to sub WP for BS whenever you fire a gun. People who do this are also in danger of being shot.)

An optimised psyker is capable of truly horrifying things, and the main check on their power is the way the GM runs the game, since being a psyker carries some interesting stigma that don't have any mechanical effect.

[Longes]

Yes. Yes they are. I have a standing rule that in my games, the next person to make a Darkhold Psyker with Living Nightmare will be shot. Even a Darkhold Psyker is pushing it.

So, picking a homeworld that the game recommends for Psykers and then choosing a background package that perfectly fits the homeworld fluff-wise is a bad thing? Weird. I guess all your wizards are ogres then.

[Yuki Akuma]

So, picking a homeworld that the game recommends for Psykers and then choosing a background package that perfectly fits the homeworld fluff-wise is a bad thing? Weird. I guess all your wizards are ogres then.

The problem is that no other career path has such amazing synergy and ability to basically base everything off of a single stat.

Psykers are, in fact, like Wizards - if they're optimised as well as they can be they make half the party absolutely irrelevant. This is a Bad Thing.

[Wolf_Haley]

Psykers are supposed to be busted, it's part of the setting but they also carry tremendous risk the more and more they use these powers. I say let em rock.

[Destro_Yersul]

So, picking a homeworld that the game recommends for Psykers and then choosing a background package that perfectly fits the homeworld fluff-wise is a bad thing? Weird. I guess all your wizards are ogres then.

Void-Born is fine. Living Nightmare is fine. Darkhold is okay. Combining all of them gets you +15 into the one single stat you will use for almost everything. So everyone does it, and it's boring as hell for me now.

[Raimun]

Heh, what I remember of Psykers is that they tend to ruin perfectly good battle plans when the abyss gazes back at them.

[The Glyphstone]

Void-Born is fine. Living Nightmare is fine. Darkhold is okay. Combining all of them gets you +15 into the one single stat you will use for almost everything. So everyone does it, and it's boring as hell for me now.

Yeah, this isn't the DH equivalent of 'grey elf wizard'. This is 'grey elf wizard with Fairie Mysteries Initiate, a homebrew feat that adds Int to all saves and AC, and a racial substitution level that adds Int to attack and damage rolls'.

[Maugan Ra]

I have played a broken psyker. I know of what I speak. Your GM is wise to keep a careful limit on what you can do with them.

Nicodemus did not have any of those three infamously broken abilities. He came from Volg Hive, and I do not believe he had any background packages. In and of itself, fairly tame.

By the time the game ended, he was a Psy Rating 8 (having studied sorcery) monstrosity who can and did casually obliterate entire squads of foes with unholy fire. When he got accidentally called up a daemonhost, the unbound horror of the warp was actually outright weaker than he was. Nothing could touch him (because he used Catch Projectiles or that divination ability that replaced dodging). Nothing could get in his way (because he could give himself burrowing, flying and the ability to survive in vacuum). Very little could even slow him down. At the end of the day, the only thing that killed him was a single result on the Perils table which reflected his power back onto himself, turning him into a fine red mist.

(The game was ending there anyway, mostly because the GM had woefully miss balanced our entire campaign, or else massively overestimated our chances. There were at least five factions set against us for one reason or another. The weakest of these was an Imperial Crusade.)

Fortunately, the game was still fun for everyone, because we all got fun toys and abilities to play with - I still fondly remember my teammate, Verbal Haarlock the elderly scum, and his Paradox Pistols of doom (timelines crossed, he became immortal due to shennanigans, and stole a previous copy of his own gun so that he could have two of them.) But still, the point remains, for the love of god do not underestimate what a psyker can do to anything resembling game balance.

[Grim Portent]

To give an example of how powerful psykers can be I'll just say that my psychic Inquisitor broke a Chaos Marines mind, reduced him to a psychic meat puppet that couldn't resist him when he used Suggestion/Zone of Compulsion/Compel or Dominate (Seed Mind is a wonderful power). Fun part was that I was able to roll so well the CSM couldn't win the willpower test to resist even if he rolled a 01. Granted I have a willpower of 79 and unnatural willpower x2 but I didn't even optimise the character during creation since I didn't have any sourcebooks at the time. I've noticed that my elite advance and alternate rank requests get scrutinised far more than everyone else in my group since my all the GMs in my group are worried I'll make a game destroyer.

Personally when I GM I don't restrict anything on the grounds of balance, I consider that something for players to maintain between themselves. If someone lags behind in some fashion I'll help them improve their build if they ask but I don't say people can't take an option to enforce mechanical balance.

EDIT: What book is living nightmare from? I don't think I've heard of it before. Nevermind, my brother told me to check Inquisitor's handbook and there it is. I need to look at some of the options in there more, I tend to overlook it.

[king.com]

Hi, everyone!
I'm begining to play in a Dark Heresy game as a Darkholder void-born Psyker, and the GM banned me from taking:

Living nightmare (I've been lucky and got a 19 on WP roll, LN would put me at 54 WP)
Distort vision

There's also been a discussion about telekinesis discipline being OP.
Are Psykers that unbalanced so I can't pick optimal things for them?

By default Psykers are fine but when you start combining them with other things they get messy if your not careful or not going to play it as a very fluffy character (i.e. never use a psychic power unless all other options have been exhausted). Telekinesis is only OP when you mix it with all the other bonuses honestly.

[Kaun]

Pyskers are supposedly "balanced" by in game fluff, which is never really detailed enough for my mind.

They can get stupid powerful without to much work and mechanical risks of warp phenomenon (or what ever its called) is easy enough to avoid if your a smart player.

Living nightmare is a common no no.

[king.com]

Pyskers are supposedly "balanced" by in game fluff, which is never really detailed enough for my mind.

They can get stupid powerful without to much work and mechanical risks of warp phenomenon (or what ever its called) is easy enough to avoid if your a smart player.

Living nightmare is a common no no.

Again, by default they are fine, roll stats down the line and go. If your allowing point buy + all careers you create ridiculous monsters easily. I mean to be fair if people are just using powers to solve all their problems you rope it in by forming lynch mobs, ecclesiarchy/witch hunters showing up and the like.

[Kaun]

I mean to be fair if people are just using powers to solve all their problems you rope it in by forming lynch mobs, ecclesiarchy/witch hunters showing up and the like.

Yeah that's my point though. The mechanics are balanced by a fluff that is never really explored so well.

It would be better if they had a section on how the GM should handle this.

Hell, they should make another table for it.

[king.com]

Yeah that's my point though. The mechanics are balanced by a fluff that is never really explored so well.

It would be better if they had a section on how the GM should handle this.

Hell, they should make another table for it.

That may just be a good description of FFG products in general.

[Maugan Ra]

Yeah, the assumed balance on a lot of the psyker's weird stuff is that use of it will draw negative attention from NPCs - the aforementioned witch-hunting zealots. The problem with that is that by the time the psyker gets access to the truly terrifying powers (or rather, by the time 'cutting loose' equals 'shattering all game balance') they are almost certainly respected enough to be operating under a significant degree of Inquisitorial authority, which tends to trump a lot of the threats a minor faction could pull.

Of course, the only people mostly immune to this who you interact with on a regular basis are your fellow Acolytes (big time NPCs tend to be mission specific and way too variable). And a system which incentivizes most of the group to be a douche to one particular player is just asking for trouble. Sure, the acolytes should be treating their psyker as a barely trusted weapon and/or a mutant abomination only just worthy of life... but surprisingly few will actually do it for very long, because it tends to utterly ruin the game.

[king.com]

Yeah, the assumed balance on a lot of the psyker's weird stuff is that use of it will draw negative attention from NPCs - the aforementioned witch-hunting zealots. The problem with that is that by the time the psyker gets access to the truly terrifying powers (or rather, by the time 'cutting loose' equals 'shattering all game balance') they are almost certainly respected enough to be operating under a significant degree of Inquisitorial authority, which tends to trump a lot of the threats a minor faction could pull.


Again, if your not doing optimization stuff the psyker doesn't get to that point until everyone else is also pretty scary themselves. This exact same problem occurs with the Noble though who has a ton of bonus money with a vendetta which is supposed to be this big drain on everything else going on. I mean the only way to keep half this stuff in check is the player needing to roleplay them strait (noble splurging money on fluff stuff, psyker wanting to not use their powers), the system played from a mechanic perspective is ultimately problematic.

[Longes]

Well, the first session went by, and by far the most useful skill I have is a Psyniscience :smallsmile: High level Psykers may dominate combat, but there are a lot of other things in the game beside the combat.

[Kaun]

Well, the first session went by, and by far the most useful skill I have is a Psyniscience :smallsmile: High level Psykers may dominate combat, but there are a lot of other things in the game beside the combat.

In the 41 millennium you can use combat to bypass not-combat in almost every situation.

http://i.qkme.me/3ti3l7.jpg

[Longes]

In the 41 millennium you can use combat to bypass not-combat in almost every situation.

That way the chaos lies :smallfurious:

[Kaun]

That way the chaos lies :smallfurious:

HERESY! Excellent! just what we were looking for! Quick everybody, combat it!

Somebody make sure to yell, "for the Emperor!" that way we can claim it as a tax deduction!

[Maugan Ra]

That way the chaos lies :smallfurious:

Ironically, Nicodemus did end up coming back as a Black Crusade character...

(Pro-tip: When running a game involving the slow infiltration and undermining of an Imperial organisation, often coordinating a number of different individuals and strike teams, telepathy is worth it's weight in gold.)

Also, when it comes to the investigative side of things, go Divination with a bit of telepathy on the side. Divination is one of those disciplines that is either completely useless or incredibly valuable, depending on how willing a GM is to plan with it in mind...

[TimeWizard]

Psykers are very, very good. Too good, almost.

Right up until they perils, turn into a Daemon and end the game in a massive TPK.

This exactly was the story of my last session. Psyker rolls warp phenomenon, gets Perils of the Warp three times. A warp storm kills 90% of the cult we're busting, and takes everyone down to a handful of wounds. Skip ahead, to the boss fight, he does it again, and turns into a unbound daemon, uses Holocost- 6d6+18 fire damage wounds, ignores armor, about 30 meters. TPK. We decide to rewind the game a bit.

[Longes]

This exactly was the story of my last session. Psyker rolls warp phenomenon, gets Perils of the Warp three times. A warp storm kills 90% of the cult we're busting, and takes everyone down to a handful of wounds. Skip ahead, to the boss fight, he does it again, and turns into a unbound daemon, uses Holocost- 6d6+18 fire damage wounds, ignores armor, about 30 meters. TPK. We decide to rewind the game a bit.

Holocaust is only 6m wide :)

[Fouredged Sword]

I played a game with just the basic book, and the auto hit divination power jumped out at me. That, paired with a low quality Las Cannon fixed most problems, and was relatively easy to make work.

[Yuki Akuma]

I played a game with just the basic book, and the auto hit divination power jumped out at me. That, paired with a low quality Las Cannon fixed most problems, and was relatively easy to make work.

Relying on using a psychic power every turn is a terrible idea. While Perils of the Warp aren't nearly as common as people like to joke, eventually you're going to roll 9s and then a 75+ on the Psychic Phenomena roll.

[Fouredged Sword]

It isn't needed every round, but the ability to hit anything with a las cannon shot from any range without fail is really nice. It was a great deterrent. We had a guardsman with a heavy machine gun thing, and my character with the laz cannon. It made for a funny pair.

[Destro_Yersul]

How did you afford even a poor-quality lascannon? That's still 2500 thrones, so unless you were a high rank by the time you got it...

[Longes]

How did you afford even a poor-quality lascannon? That's still 2500 thrones, so unless you were a high rank by the time you got it...

We raid and we pillage and we do as we please...

[Destro_Yersul]

Then your GM is doing something wrong. :smalltongue:

[Kaun]

wow las cannon in DH, i thought those stats were just in there as a benchmark.

[Grim Portent]

Considering the default start package for a Crimson Guard (Lathe Worlds for those who don't know it) is worth about 5000 thrones before you factor in their free bionics a lascannon would seem normal to me at about rank 5 or 6. They weigh a ton, take a while to reload and can only shoot one guy at a time. Sure when a chaos marine stumbles into view you'll be glad you have it, but the rest of the time a gun like that is a glorified paperweight.

[king.com]

Considering the default start package for a Crimson Guard (Lathe Worlds for those who don't know it) is worth about 5000 thrones before you factor in their free bionics a lascannon would seem normal to me at about rank 5 or 6. They weigh a ton, take a while to reload and can only shoot one guy at a time. Sure when a chaos marine stumbles into view you'll be glad you have it, but the rest of the time a gun like that is a glorified paperweight.

To be fair the Lathe Worlds book is way more powerful than a bunch of the stuff in the Dark Heresy line. I would feel comfortable saying virtually every subsequent book introduced even more powerful stuff than the last.

EDIT: Except for ascension.

[Destro_Yersul]

Considering the default start package for a Crimson Guard (Lathe Worlds for those who don't know it) is worth about 5000 thrones before you factor in their free bionics a lascannon would seem normal to me at about rank 5 or 6. They weigh a ton, take a while to reload and can only shoot one guy at a time. Sure when a chaos marine stumbles into view you'll be glad you have it, but the rest of the time a gun like that is a glorified paperweight.

Yeah, what King said. Lathe Worlds in general, and Crimson Guard in particular, has some ridiculously powerful character options available. It is by no means a good benchmark for that sort of thing. In the games I've played in and run, Heavy Weapons don't really pop up as a thing that people can own outside of Ascension level and some of the cheaper solid projectile stuff. They're more likely to show up as environmental piece and get used for an encounter or two.

[Grim Portent]

Yeah, what King said. Lathe Worlds in general, and Crimson Guard in particular, has some ridiculously powerful character options available. It is by no means a good benchmark for that sort of thing. In the games I've played in and run, Heavy Weapons don't really pop up as a thing that people can own outside of Ascension level and some of the cheaper solid projectile stuff. They're more likely to show up as environmental piece and get used for an encounter or two.

I wouldn't keep my players from getting the heavy gear as long as they can afford it. That and sometimes you just have to vaporise a PC with one hit to demonstrate the power an enemy has in his arsenal, if the party can loot that arsenal afterwards then all well and good. Heavy Weapons never seem that bad to me compared to what the more optimised players in my group (me included when I don't GM) can do with a hunting rifle or a tech priest/psyker.

Most of the Lathe Worlds stuff seems fine to me cost wise since it largely needs to be integrated to use, problem with that is that it makes tech priests and crimson guard (especially crimson guard) PCs able to become really strong compared to the other careers since they don't need to jury rig a powersource.

Though as with Sisters of Battle I think the Blood of Martyrs Pilgrim background is a good way to balance things out at low ranks when someone wants to play a powerful career.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, the party saved up for the cannon, and my Psycer used the powers that add +20 and +30 to add to his roll for working on price. We got a discount per the rules. This was a while ago, and I may not be remembering right.

It was a 7 man group, so when we pooled cash to get something, we could afford quite a bit. We bought it right after fighting a deamon. It was unanimously decided that the high willpower character who stands the best chance at both not freaking out and had the ability to make any shot should be able to at least slow the thing down by shooting it in the eyes.

[Leon]

To be fair the Lathe Worlds book is way more powerful than a bunch of the stuff in the Dark Heresy line. I would feel comfortable saying virtually every subsequent book introduced even more powerful stuff than the last.

EDIT: Except for ascension.

Lathe Worlds doesn't hold a candle to what Demon Hunter will let you play as in a DH game...
Similarly Blood of Martyrs is a notch above LW as well.
The really powerful thing in LW is the Crimson Guard and it makes a rather mediocre class a Frontloaded badass.

[Destro_Yersul]

I wouldn't keep my players from getting the heavy gear as long as they can afford it. That and sometimes you just have to vaporise a PC with one hit to demonstrate the power an enemy has in his arsenal, if the party can loot that arsenal afterwards then all well and good. Heavy Weapons never seem that bad to me compared to what the more optimised players in my group (me included when I don't GM) can do with a hunting rifle or a tech priest/psyker.

Though as with Sisters of Battle I think the Blood of Martyrs Pilgrim background is a good way to balance things out at low ranks when someone wants to play a powerful career.

Well, if they can afford it and they can find it, they can certainly have it, but buying heavy weapons on an Acolyte's salary is tricky business. You basically have to have a generous GM to make that work, although I suppose a few noble characters could do the trick too. And really, heavy weapons are way way worse than a hunting rifle, since the extra d10s from Accurate cap out at +2d10. At most you're getting 3d10+3, which is pretty fairly outclassed by most heavy weapons on any old hit.

To the other point, I don't think Pilgrim really fits a Mechanicus character too well, though it would be an interesting way to effectively nerf a BoM Battle Sister. Nice idea, that.


It was a 7 man group, so when we pooled cash to get something, we could afford quite a bit. We bought it right after fighting a deamon. It was unanimously decided that the high willpower character who stands the best chance at both not freaking out and had the ability to make any shot should be able to at least slow the thing down by shooting it in the eyes.

A 7 man group would certainly help, and giving it to the Psyker as the character with the highest WP score and the power that lets him instahit is perfectly valid OOC logic. Though on the other hand, it amuses me that you all basically decided that daemonhosts with lascannons are way better than just regular daemonhosts.


Lathe Worlds doesn't hold a candle to what Demon Hunter will let you play as in a DH game...
Similarly Blood of Martyrs is a notch above LW as well.
The really powerful thing in LW is the Crimson Guard and it makes a rather mediocre class a Frontloaded badass.

The funny thing is, in Core DH Guardsman is one of the best combat careers because it starts with better armour than everyone else, and nobody can afford anything better. It starts going down in utility the further you get up the ranks, though there are still ways to make it work.

[Fouredged Sword]

It was ether the psyker or the assassin who we all suspected was in a contract with a deamon, but our inquisitor liked him. The party decided to give it to the person standing within point black range of the arbiter with a shotgun just in case something went wrong. At least that way it would stay pointed in the right direction.

[Grim Portent]

I have noticed that a lot of alternate ranks have requirements that require GM cooperation to meet, the radical ones don't seem to be among them to the same degree, as the puritan ones.

'Do you have Forbidden Lore (X)? Yes? Oh well in that case you can be a Heretek. Here have some more Forbidden Lores. You there Psyker! Have you suffered Perils related corruption? Yes? Well how would you like to learn sorcery?'

And so on.

Although since I'm pro radical in DH I actually rather like this. The slippery slope to darkness should look inviting.