Shapesand+Minor Servitor spell? To Build Some Minions

[unseenmage]

Livewood is a special material from Eberron Campaign Setting page 127 which counts as a living plant for some spells.
Living Metal is a special material from Magic of Faerun page 179 which heals hp damage.
Is there an analogue to these in stone? Is there some sort of Living Stone? Or is Shapesand the closest concept-wise?
Y'know what, scratch that, Shapesand is just about exactly what I was looking for.

Post is now about Shapesand (Sandstorm, Wis checks to change it's shape) and the Minor Servitor spell (Animate Objects but gets mental stats, from Savage Species).

The way I see it even if the animated Shapesand creature doesn't have a high enough Wis score to change it's entire appearance it could still reshape it's natural attack or its body/face.

Matter of fact, I think I now have the ultimate minions for my next BBEG. Minor Servitor-ed Shapesand creatures.

Heaven forbid if one of them carries a couple of others and they work together as a team. Activating magic items foe each other and reshaping each other's sand.

Running one becomes a game of 'how long till the PCs start Dispel Magic-ing every enemy they come across. :smallsmile:

Had another idea, Shapesand copies of either the unanimated bodies of constructs and undead. A corpse or unanimated golem are just objects so Shapesand should be able to copy them. Apply Minor Servitor and viola, dispellable Intelligent constructs.

For even more *FUN*, apply Shrink Item (cloth form) and Hardening/Matter Manipulation/Augment Object to your Shapesand buddy before applying the Minor Servitor spell.

Now you have a high-ish Hardness construct that shrinks into a flying hankerchief when the command word is spoken. Too bad it can't speak and activate it's own Shrink Item command word though...

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, I would look into some means of boosting their wisdom, as they unform as soon as they get more than 1000ft from the person who shaped them, and they can be unshapped as a standard action by anyone who wins a wisdom opposed check.

Now, feel free to DM fait this as it is a cool concept...

That said, I am not sure that they need to be shapable. Just sand can be animated, and need not be shapesand.

Cool idea though. Work out a set mechanic and let us know how it goes.

[unseenmage]

Well, I would look into some means of boosting their wisdom, as they unform as soon as they get more than 1000ft from the person who shaped them, and they can be unshapped as a standard action by anyone who wins a wisdom opposed check.

Now, feel free to DM fait this as it is a cool concept...

That said, I am not sure that they need to be shapable. Just sand can be animated, and need not be shapesand.

Cool idea though. Work out a set mechanic and let us know how it goes.

That's the fun thing. The Minor Servitor spell gives them their own Wis score. They can shape themselves and can oppose Wis checks on their own. Maximized Minor Servitor should net them an 18 Wis.

I'm not sure exactly what level a PC can afford a Scroll of Maximized Minor Servitor and enough Shapesand to build at least a Tiny creature though. Which is part of why I'm going to use it for a BBEG instead.

[Fouredged Sword]

It gets an Int and Cha score from the spell, but the wisdom score remains 1.

Though, as the duration of minor servitor is permanent, one could then awaken it.

[unseenmage]

It gets an Int and Cha score from the spell, but the wisdom score remains 1.

Though, as the duration of minor servitor is permanent, one could then awaken it.

Ack. You are correct, I was wrong. My apologies.


Definitely need to boost that Wisdom score then. I wonder, are there any equipment slot items to boost Wis that are affordable? Definitely want reusable items as the minion is so Dispellable.

[Darrin]

Definitely need to boost that Wisdom score then. I wonder, are there any equipment slot items to boost Wis that are affordable? Definitely want reusable items as the minion is so Dispellable.

Scroll of awaken construct costs 28850 GP. Hmm... Dweomerkeeper or Archmage that as an SLA?

To get around the dispel thing, use simulacrum or ice assassin on the constructs. You can planar bind a mirror mephit (Expedition to the Demonweb Pits) for simulacrum as an SLA 1/day.

[unseenmage]

Scroll of awaken construct costs 28850 GP. Hmm... Dweomerkeeper or Archmage that as an SLA?

To get around the dispel thing, use simulacrum or ice assassin on the constructs. You can planar bind a mirror mephit (Expedition to the Demonweb Pits) for simulacrum as an SLA 1/day.

Awaken Construct doesn't allow for complete control of the subject creature, just friendship.

Would Simulacrum/Ice Assassin not duplicate the Dispellable quality of the Minor Servitor? If not why? (Not disputing/arguing, just trying to understand.)

[Darrin]

Awaken Construct doesn't allow for complete control of the subject creature, just friendship.


Fixed via simulacrum/ice assassin: "At all times the simulacrum remains under your absolute command."



Would Simulacrum/Ice Assassin not duplicate the Dispellable quality of the Minor Servitor? If not why? (Not disputing/arguing, just trying to understand.)

Simulacrum, ice assassin and awaken construct are all instantaneous effects, so there's nothing to dispel there. As far as wether the initial minor servitor is still dispellable... that may be a DM Call, but I would think if you cast awaken construct, this makes dispelling minor servitor a moot point. Awaken construct creates an intelligent construct creature, period. At the time it was cast, the construct was a valid target, since minor servitor has a permanent and non-temporary duration. Even if you dispel the minor servitor, it's still an intelligent construct creature via awaken construct, which can't be dispelled.

Without awaken construct... I'm not sure. I can't see anything in the rules that says whether a permanent spell effect would still be dispellable if you created a duplicate copy. Simulacrum says it creates an "illusory duplicate", while ice assassin says it's a "near-perfect duplicate". In both cases, it looks like the text is talking about the appearance of the creature rather than its actual substance. The actual structure of the creature is made out of snow, ice, and powdered gemstones, which was brought to life via an instantaneous spell effect. The piece of the original creature required as a material component doesn't require that the original creature must still be alive or an active animated object.

In fact... that may be your answer right there: create a minor servitor. Cut off a toenail (or the equivalent). Dispel the minor servitor, rendering it back to an inert object. But that toenail is still from what was once a creature, as far as simulacrum cares, so you can still use it to create a simulacrum of that creature as it was when you collected the toenail. So... simulacrum shouldn't care whether the original was dispelled or killed or disintegrated or whatnot.

[unseenmage]

Fixed via simulacrum/ice assassin: "At all times the simulacrum remains under your absolute command."



Simulacrum, ice assassin and awaken construct are all instantaneous effects, so there's nothing to dispel there. As far as wether the initial minor servitor is still dispellable... that may be a DM Call, but I would think if you cast awaken construct, this makes dispelling minor servitor a moot point. Awaken construct creates an intelligent construct creature, period. At the time it was cast, the construct was a valid target, since minor servitor has a permanent and non-temporary duration. Even if you dispel the minor servitor, it's still an intelligent construct creature via awaken construct, which can't be dispelled.

Without awaken construct... I'm not sure. I can't see anything in the rules that says whether a permanent spell effect would still be dispellable if you created a duplicate copy. Simulacrum says it creates an "illusory duplicate", while ice assassin says it's a "near-perfect duplicate". In both cases, it looks like the text is talking about the appearance of the creature rather than its actual substance. The actual structure of the creature is made out of snow, ice, and powdered gemstones, which was brought to life via an instantaneous spell effect. Once created, other than the pathological need to kill the original, I don't see that any part of the original minor servitor spell is really contained or included as part of the simulacrum. I'd say it's treated as a separate creature, but that's just my opinion. As far as RAW goes... no idea.

Am I missing something or doesn't Awaken Construct only work on non-intelligent constructs? Minor Servitor gives an Int score.
Not only that but I'm not seeing where it makes a new creature at all, it simply gives the existing construct mental scores.

For my part I'd have to rule the Simulacrum as copying none or all of the effects of the Minor Servitor spell, if it even works in the first place. Otherwise you get into that dangerous grey area of cherry picking only the benefits out of a rules interaction while conveniently ignoring the penalties.
(This is in no way an accusation, more a self-recrimination. I've done it before and take every opportunity to remind myself not to do it again.)

[Darrin]

Am I missing something or doesn't Awaken Construct only work on non-intelligent constructs? Minor Servitor gives an Int score.


There's nothing in the Savage Species or Spell Compendium version that specifically excludes constructs with an Int score. Both list the target as "one construct". A construct with a humanlike 3d6 Int score but Cha of 1d3 and Wis 1 could be said to be intelligent, but does not have "humanlike sentience". A sentient creature would have to have at least a Wis 3 and Cha 3.



Not only that but I'm not seeing where it makes a new creature at all, it simply gives the existing construct mental scores.


The point was not to create a new creature, but to give a Wis/Cha score to it that can be copied via simulacrum. The newly-created construct would be fully under your control, and the original minor servitor could be dispelled, killed by the duplicate, or sent along its merry way.

[unseenmage]

There's nothing in the Savage Species or Spell Compendium version that specifically excludes constructs with an Int score. Both list the target as "one construct". A construct with a humanlike 3d6 Int score but Cha of 1d3 and Wis 1 could be said to be intelligent, but does not have "humanlike sentience". A sentient creature would have to have at least a Wis 3 and Cha 3.



The point was not to create a new creature, but to give a Wis/Cha score to it that can be copied via simulacrum. The newly-created construct would be fully under your control, and the original minor servitor could be dispelled, killed by the duplicate, or sent along its merry way.

Ah, I see now, you intended Awaken Construct+Simulacrum as a replacement for Minor Servitor. Apologies again. The lack of sleep, it is definitely affecting my ability to intuit and cognate.

Again, I have this preconception that only Int 3 was required for sentience. I don't remember Wis or Cha ever coming into it other than without them a creature is comatose.

Edit: It occurs to me that amassing Shapesand in volumes large enough to be useful for animating can be cost prohibitive.
To that end having Simulacrum duplicate the Dispellable quality might be a bit of an exploit.

[Darrin]

Ah, I see now, you intended Awaken Construct+Simulacrum as a replacement for Minor Servitor. Apologies again. The lack of sleep, it is definitely affecting my ability to intuit and cognate.


Minor servitor is still required because the duration needs to be non-temporary for awaken construct to work.



Again, I have this preconception that only Int 3 was required for sentience. I don't remember Wis or Cha ever coming into it other than without them a creature is comatose.

Looking at the PHB section on ability scores, a Wis of 1 is equivalent to a zombie, golem, or ooze, and none of those are considered aware of their surroundings enough to be "sentient". (Oddly enough, though, even mindless zombies and skeletons have a Wis score of 10.)

A Cha of 1 is the equivalent of a zombie, golem, or fungus. A Cha of 2 is the equivalent of vermin or reptiles, but many animals have higher Cha (Wolverine has Cha 10... must be the muttonchops). Animals are not considered sentient.

I'm not sure "sentience" is ever really defined in the rules, but I think from what I see in the PHB and MM, the minimum would be self-awareness (Int 3), the ability to perceive your surroundings (Wis 3), and the awareness of and ability to influence others (Cha 3).