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Loki Eremes
2013-07-31, 05:44 AM
People, how are you doing.

This is my first time asking for something unrelated to rules or direct aspects of a game.
This time is the first i ask about the action of Mastering itself.

We (my group and i) have a friend that occasionally takes the role of the Master in our games. D&D and World of Darkness mostly.
But we tend to leave his campaings due a lot of factors.


Let me set some examples for your delight:

DM: "you cant destroy the door that goes down the stairs because its made of....adamantium"
(the party manages to go through it after some unthinkable puzzle)
Guard: we set up that door because hobos used to steal our heavy machinery.
[Vampire - The Masquerade]
~
PC: "i create a flame on the lumberjack's chainsaw so it looks like an explosion and burn his arm, i want to win time"
(20 min debate about the action)
DM: ok
PC: lumberjack team reaction?
DM: he extinguishes the fire on his arm, takes the same chainsaw, examinates it, turns it on, and continues working.
[Werewolf - The Apocalypse]
~
PC: "you're useless to me" (shoots the Prince)
DM: (rolls resistance) The prince is dead. 6 guards enter the room and starts shooting at you.
(battle goes on until PC actually kill the guards)
PC: i open the door and run away
DM: he...got away...
(hours later over the phone)
DM: he killed the prince and got away... dont know what to do.
[Vampire - The Masquerade]


Well...this are just some of them, i lost count.
As you see its like he doesnt have common sense when it comes to react to situations, and i (and my crew) gave him some advice about this....but its always the same.

The last two campaings he mastered only lasted ONE session because of this.

I dont know if we're being dull when telling him how to not DM or what.... but it keeps repeating over and over. :smallannoyed:
This would be obviously tolerable if he wasnt experienced for the DM role, but according to him he has a bunch of sessions on his record.

He is not an idiot, nor a bad guy....but its like he cant DM, and ****, we know he can and he WANTS.



> My question to you is.....any advice or opinion about this case?
what can we do to correct this ...."behaviour"?
Is there anything like a "Guide for the correct DM" or a formula to at least dont make your players run away?
dont be shy and tell me about your problems and solutions too... <
...after all we once had problems too :smallbiggrin: (and continue having)

nedz
2013-07-31, 05:56 AM
Maybe he should try running a game in a surreal setting where common sense is irrelevant ?

Felhammer
2013-07-31, 05:57 AM
He needs to learn about improv and how to go with the flow. Giving up control is one of the hardest lessons a DM can learn but, honestly, it is by far one of the most important. RPGs aren't just about the DM handing down a story to the players, its about shared story telling. Everyone has to feel like they have some control over the plot and the campaign/adventure's direction or else they may as well go home and read a book or play a video game.

BWR
2013-07-31, 06:05 AM
Apart from finding various hints about how to be a good GM - most systems will have something like this in a fairly central book. Pathfinder's "Game Mastery Guide" has a very nice and mostly universal section about what skills and mindsets are useful to a GM.

Mostly though, this guy seems like he just cannot adapt to anything not going according to plan. Some of those things the players did (killing the Prince? really?) seem like bad player choices as well. The most advice I can give in a few short sentences is "Stop and think".
What is the logical (or at least most likely) outcome of this situation?

If this guy truly cannot react to the player's actions, even if the players act reasonably, there isn't much you can do.
You could try a dual-GM set. Give this guy a support GM who can help make suggestions about possible responses. Or have him sit in on other groups' sessions and see how other GMs handle things.

DragonclawExia
2013-07-31, 06:06 AM
I see the problem here. Your thinking that the oWoD is a GAME and not an interactive drama theater rehearsal.



No offense to any actual Literature Majors or related occupations.

Killer Angel
2013-07-31, 06:09 AM
I dont know if we're being dull when telling him how to not DM or what.... but it keeps repeating over and over. :smallannoyed:


Sadly, if things are not changed even after trying to work with him, i fear that you must live with it. :smallfrown:
My experience says that 99.9% of the times, a seasoned DM is not able to modify the basis of it's gamestyle.

hymer
2013-07-31, 06:12 AM
He might benefit from having a co-GM? I've never tried that, but this sounds like a case where it may do some good, if the guy really wants to GM.

Hyena
2013-07-31, 10:27 AM
Give him this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_(role-playing_game)).

Loki Eremes
2013-07-31, 11:21 AM
Apart from finding various hints about how to be a good GM - most systems will have something like this in a fairly central book. Pathfinder's "Game Mastery Guide" has a very nice and mostly universal section about what skills and mindsets are useful to a GM.

Mostly though, this guy seems like he just cannot adapt to anything not going according to plan. Some of those things the players did (killing the Prince? really?) seem like bad player choices as well. The most advice I can give in a few short sentences is "Stop and think".
What is the logical (or at least most likely) outcome of this situation?

If this guy truly cannot react to the player's actions, even if the players act reasonably, there isn't much you can do.
You could try a dual-GM set. Give this guy a support GM who can help make suggestions about possible responses. Or have him sit in on other groups' sessions and see how other GMs handle things.

I told him to "stop & think" but i think he blocks himself.
and yup, that player killed the prince, but he did it to test the DM, and sadly it was a success (for him).

Pathfinder's "Game Mastery Guide"...ill check that out.



I see the problem here. Your thinking that the oWoD is a GAME and not an interactive drama theater rehearsal.

No offense to any actual Literature Majors or related occupations.

...say what?
leaving the dice aside....you read the examples did you?



Sadly, if things are not changed even after trying to work with him, i fear that you must live with it. :smallfrown:
My experience says that 99.9% of the times, a seasoned DM is not able to modify the basis of it's gamestyle.

i really hope that number is wrong :smallfrown:



He might benefit from having a co-GM? I've never tried that, but this sounds like a case where it may do some good, if the guy really wants to GM.

that would be good but he needs to learn this by himself.
And knowing how much the Coop would be correcting him....it will hastly turn the campaing into the Coop campaing xD



Give him this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_(role-playing_game)).

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/006/482/template.jpg

we re trying to make him be a team-player when not DMing,
i refuse to give him that bastard maker :roach:

Killer Angel
2013-07-31, 12:25 PM
i really hope that number is wrong :smallfrown:


The important thing, is to fall in the right part of the percentage... :smalltongue:

Good luck, don't give up trying!

The Glyphstone
2013-07-31, 12:31 PM
...say what?
leaving the dice aside....you read the examples did you?




He's implying/stating that OWoD is thematically famous for heavy-handed railroading, on the part of the setting that too-often translates into actual play.
[/dontexplainthejoke]

Alejandro
2013-07-31, 12:43 PM
I see the problem here. Your thinking that the oWoD is a GAME and not an interactive drama theater rehearsal.



No offense to any actual Literature Majors or related occupations.

Oh man, thank you for the great laugh. I experienced this too.

Need_A_Life
2013-07-31, 01:47 PM
Always assume that your players will try to mess up your carefully prepared plot.

My way to do that is to make the plot and then flesh out 3-4 scenes that I absolutely want to happen, 4-6 scenes that probably will happen and a vague idea of how one might transition from one scene to another.

So when the players blow up the building, you can just go "awesome!" and think how to get them to one of ~4 different routes to move on to a scene you've got prepared.

Then, when the rollercoaster ride is over and you've reviewed your notes of how they went about things, take anything that they did earlier and think "what would the consequences (good or bad) be for having done this?"
That's your next plot.

BRC
2013-07-31, 04:00 PM
It sounds like the DM is getting attached to his plan, which is always a problem. If you get attached to it, you will try to defend it. He needs to learn to think on his feet.

Here is some advice for him.

You Don't Need to do everything you planned
So there is a door. You want the PC's to go solve a puzzle to get through the door. They want to break the door down. When that happens, let them try to break it down. Consider what is reasonable in this situation. An indestructable door probably is not.
If the players think their way around a puzzle or fight, don't try to force them back on the rails. Let things play out naturally.

Just because you didn't plan it, dosn't mean it can't happen.

Don't be afraid to improvise. If you already prepared somthing, see if you can tweak it to make it flow naturally with the story.

DMing isn't about building a birdhouse. It's about walking into the workshop with no idea what you're going to need to build and having a good guess as to what tools you need. Build your story around your player's actions, that will make them feel more invested, which in turn makes everybody have a good time.


Actions Have Consequences

If the PC's do somthing totally off-the-wall crazy, like shooting a prince, don't be afraid to make them live with the consequences. Send bounty hunters after them. Ideally you shouldn't see this as punishing them so much as building a new story based around their actions.

Jay R
2013-07-31, 04:41 PM
Ask yourself the following questions:

1. Will I ever enjoy this game?
2. Do I need to play a game I won't enjoy?

Don't delude yourself into believing either is an easy question. This should take some time.

But it's the only procedure that might lead to a serious consideration of what to do next.

DragonclawExia
2013-07-31, 05:52 PM
Seriously though, I wasn't kidding.

oWoD doesn't work well if you play it like a game. Remember, in oWoD there's no Dungeon Master.


He's the STORYTELLER. The gameplay mechanic's are barely workable to begin with.


So if your gonna ROLEPLAY with him, try not to mess up his ridicously insane railroads. Everything goes smoother when you stop playing oWoD like D&D.

Otherwise, he might decide to unleash Gehenna on you or something. The fundamental mechanic's of oWoD is built for railroads.


I mean, you killed the Prince? Shouldn't he sick the entire Vampire Camarilla Faction on you? If that doesn't work, that means you killed enough Vampires for an Ancient God Vampire to chase after you also.


Still not enough? Fine, he'll get Cain. STILL NOT ENOUGH? God smites you, no save, no nothing, giant pinky of doom, GG Session.


Seriously though.

crazyhedgewizrd
2013-07-31, 07:00 PM
Seriously killing a prince in world of darkness is a game ending action.

Those situations are a retarded and stupid way to give reasons to leave a game. I would have liked more context and reason for the situation, instead of saying its an impassable door and we got though it and guard says we put that there to stop people stealing our stuff.

Aidan305
2013-07-31, 07:12 PM
Out of curiosity, how much experience does this GM have as a player? He might benefit from being around on the other side of the table a bit watching how other GMs do it.

One Step Two
2013-07-31, 07:27 PM
Seriously killing a prince in world of darkness is a game ending action.

I don't see Killing the prince as game-stopping, it's game changing. The dymanic changes from a "quest" based game, to becoming a survivalist game as those loyal to the prince hunt you down, while other factions who approve of the move use it, and you, as a chance to gain more power.
The other players can either become hunters, or accomplases.

But yes, the Storyteller in question seems to lack the capability for some improv overall.
A couple of things that might help.

Have him add more details for NPCs. An entire character sheet isnt necessary, but maybe a sentence or two, giving their goals, and attitude, etc. Just to give them dimension, and help him decide how they react.

Make sure he is aware of the characters in play. Puzzles can be fun, but if most of your party is filled with hulking brutes that prefer to apply boot to face, then puzzles will be frustrating roadblocks. By the same token, a group of intellectuals might have difficulty breaking into a building.

This one is a big one: A Co-DM. Make it a shared work load when it comers to running the game, have a couple of players responsible for Key NPCs or factions. When I run games I usually have a friend Run the Sabbat, and I run the Camarilla. We both have characters to play, but we have the security of the other able to help out give context or ideas when running the opposing side. If you feel someone else is a more capable Storyteller, have them take your friend under their wing, run something with a small number of players, and take the time to talk through different possibilities.

Tanuki Tales
2013-07-31, 07:48 PM
I must be going senile or something....

What exactly did the Story teller do that was so wrong that you wouldn't play under him? :smallconfused:

This guy is definitely no Chief Circle, which is what I expect from a thread titled like this.

One Step Two
2013-07-31, 08:01 PM
I must be going senile or something....

What exactly did the Story teller do that was so wrong that you wouldn't play under him? :smallconfused:

This guy is definitely no Chief Circle, which is what I expect from a thread titled like this.

That's because Chief Circle has set our expectations too high(or is it low?) for Bad GM's.

The OP has a Storyteller that has some faults, but they're small by comparison, and with a little work and effort, can be improved on.

Chief Circle.... that's not a GM, but a Sociopath with a set of dice.

zorenathres
2013-07-31, 08:06 PM
The repeated advise of using a Co-GM sounds like the best course of action. Also, maybe try & have him run a simpler/ lower power one-shot or short adventure for the group to let him get the hang of how things are at the basics (hopefully no teleporting doors of adamantium anyway).

DragonclawExia
2013-07-31, 08:27 PM
Honestly, even though you can turn it into a "Survival Vampire Horror" game, any decently RPing Storyteller will end you the next day.

Your basically become a Pariah to EVERY single plausible society in the world. The Werewolves will kill you in the wild. The main human society is owned by the Technocracy who wants you contained. Not to mention the "Human" Hunters ordained by Jehovah himself to mess you up for the lawls. The Mages are actually in the same boat, but they sure as hell will only use you as an experiment. At Best. Also, their infinitely more powerful then a group of Vampires can even DREAM of being, bare Deus Caine Machina.


The Sabbat? Their crazy, and their never accept Former Cammies no matter how much they grovel. Their composed of Ant Fodder and thousand year old Elders who's just messing with their own pawns even more then the Princes were to theirs.


The only PLAUSIBLE thing they can do is join the Anarchs, and even they won't trust a bunch of Power hungry Neonates who just murdered their own Prince, unless he was like....Vampire Hitler X10 or something. But you also got caught doing it? That's just stupid.

The Kue-Jin? They might allow you in for a joke, but then they MURDER YOU IN YOUR SLEEP WITH MYSTICAL OP STEREOTYPICAL ASIAN SUPERPOWERS.


I mean, just the WAYS a good Storyteller could **** you over? In the same day? How about, a secret Cammie Elder use one of his OP Auspex abilities to find out where you sleep and then telepathically use that information to contact some Hunters to bulldoze wherever you think your safe.



Seriously man, I'm starting to think your friends just don't "get" the oWoD. It's like your intentionally trying to mess up his railroad, and he's too incompetent to punish you accordingly.

I mean, you basically committed Kindred Social Suicide.

It's the World of Darkness, man. Millenia Conspiracies and being a slave to things you don't even COMPREHEND is the very concept of the thing. Your not going around kicking ass. Your pathetically living in a world that SHOULDN'T EVEN BE ALLOWED TO EXIST. (IN CANON TOO.)

valadil
2013-07-31, 08:36 PM
He is not an idiot, nor a bad guy....but its like he cant DM, and ****, we know he can and he WANTS.


Step one is recognizing the problem. Is this GM aware his games suck? Or does he think he's running the best thing ever and feels confused when the games don't work out?

If he isn't aware he has a problem, I'm not sure what to do. TBH, I think the most important thing a GM does is read his players. See what they react to, notice if they stop paying attention, etc, and react to that. A GM who can't do that may not be helpless, but I certainly don't know what to do with him.

If your GM does want to fix things, I can think of two solutions. The first would be feedback from the players. If they can pinpoint what went wrong and why, that might help. But player/GM dynamics don't always allow that to work. The best alternative IMO would be to get your GM talking to other GMs. The internet is a great way to do it. Send him over here to post some transcripts of the game from his POV and we'll analyze them and tell him where he went wrong.

IMO, the common theme in your stories is that the players did something he didn't expect and he broke common sense in order to shut the players down. Someone else mentioned his methods not making sense. To me that's not as important as shutting the players down. The whole point of an RPG is to make decisions as another person. If the GM says your decision doesn't count and takes your turn away, you might as well not even show up. He doesn't have to make your decisions play out positively, but he does have to honor them.

Beelzebub1111
2013-07-31, 09:15 PM
He needs to learn about improv and how to go with the flow. Giving up control is one of the hardest lessons a DM can learn but, honestly, it is by far one of the most important. RPGs aren't just about the DM handing down a story to the players, its about shared story telling. Everyone has to feel like they have some control over the plot and the campaign/adventure's direction or else they may as well go home and read a book or play a video game.

And likewise one of the hardest lessons for a player to learn is to bite a dangling hook every once in a while. Give and take, you know?

As a player, I've learned the hard way that it's more fun to take the bait than to sit on your hands and force the GM to make up something else on the fly. Because the on-the-fly adventure generally has worse treasure and harder encounters because of spite.

It's okay to challenge every once in a while but I've had more fun going with the flow. Straightforward puzzles don't always require the most obtuse solutions. There was a simple puzzle door (get a lying and truth telling statue to agree) and my players decided to instead take two days to chisel through with a pickaxe instead of the group (two of which were CS majors) even attempting to solve a simple true-false logic puzzle.


Alternate solution: How about you GM something for a while. Since you know what to avoid, I'm sure you can be a better Storyteller than him.

One Step Two
2013-07-31, 09:33 PM
Honestly, even though you can turn it into a "Survival Vampire Horror" game, any decently RPing Storyteller will end you the next day.

I don't mean to go off topic, but it sounds like some good GM/STing advice for these matters. So I'll spin it that way.
In the World of Darkenss, yes, somone who killed the Prince should proabably should be crushed in a day or so, because of the meta being so gothic and dark. However, if the person in question is a PC, then they are entitled to be given a little bit more to room to move with with.
A ST stating "You get away." and not expanding or explaining how, is a poor approach, so is the "You get staked tomorrow."

Players should be made to feel the weight of their actions, if they just killed the Prince, when guard break into the room, there needs to be a very real pause of shock, because that was one hell of an audacious thing to do. If the guards are Ghouls who have been heavily blood bound, they will attack on sight, to avenge their lost master. Other vampires might pause a moment to consider the rammifications. Not to mention that many vampires want to preserve their unlives, and getting into a fire fight is a poor idea.
After they manage to kill and/or evade the guards, reminding them that every member of the city's Camarilla is going to hunt them down, that their hiding places might be compromised. If they do something like returning to their well-known, and lightly secured domain, they deserve the rammafications. Either human/ghoul thralls sent during the day, or vampires laying in wait at night.


Your basically become a Pariah to EVERY single plausible society in the world. The Werewolves will kill you in the wild. The main human society is owned by the Technocracy who wants you contained. Not to mention the "Human" Hunters ordained by Jehovah himself to mess you up for the lawls. The Mages are actually in the same boat, but they sure as hell will only use you as an experiment. At Best. Also, their infinitely more powerful then a group of Vampires can even DREAM of being, bare Deus Caine Machina.

Most of this is true before you killed a Prince anyway, and depending on the characters knowledge of the World of Darkness around them, they may not reach out to these societies.


The Sabbat? Their crazy, and their never accept Former Cammies no matter how much they grovel. Their composed of Ant Fodder and thousand year old Elders who's just messing with their own pawns even more then the Princes were to theirs.

The only PLAUSIBLE thing they can do is join the Anarchs, and even they won't trust a bunch of Power hungry Neonates who just murdered their own Prince, unless he was like....Vampire Hitler X10 or something. But you also got caught doing it? That's just stupid.

For the Sabbat, it depends on the Bishop. He might see see such a thing as a trial by fire. He will have you watched, and he will make sure you earn your respect in the hardest way imaginable. I've had a number of Camarilla vampires decide they've had enough of the rules of the Masquerade, and decide to jump ship. The Sabbat are a bunch of murder-happy nut-jobs, but they are an actively recruiting bunch of murder-happy nut-jobs. As you said, they don't want a grovelling neonate, but someone willing to snuff one of the inner-circles pawn-brokers? They deserve props for that.

The Anarchs would cover your ass if they feel it was righteous enough, again, it depends on how fleshed out they are. If they don't like the idea of making waves, they might hand you over to the Cammies. If they're more militant, they might support you, and smuggle you out of town as a "thanks, but don't come back." Giving you more backstory as you start fresh in a new city.

And if you need to make a desperation play to save them (if you want to) a helpful independant clan, like the Giovanni or the Followers of Set might intercede, for a price. And then there's the mysterious Inconnu who might find reason to help the kindred in question


The Kue-Jin? They might allow you in for a joke, but then they MURDER YOU IN YOUR SLEEP WITH MYSTICAL OP STEREOTYPICAL ASIAN SUPERPOWERS.

Not gonna argue with you here, the Kue-jin are a tough crowd to win over.


I mean, just the WAYS a good Storyteller could **** you over? In the same day? How about, a secret Cammie Elder use one of his OP Auspex abilities to find out where you sleep and then telepathically use that information to contact some Hunters to bulldoze wherever you think your safe.

See, you're not wrong here, but you seem to be taking the role of Storyteller as someone fighting against the players, instead of someone who, in my opinion, should be working with (or against) players to make a compelling, and immersive story.
Can an Elder vampire use his super abilities to simply will the building they're hiding in on fire? Yes, he probably could.
Would that make for an interesting game? If they're simply dead, no. If they get a chance to roleplay the horror of trying to escape the inferno, and your player is invested in the character, then they might find it exhilerating.

Which brings me to my final point...


Seriously man, I'm starting to think your friends just don't "get" the oWoD. It's like your intentionally trying to mess up his railroad, and he's too incompetent to punish you accordingly.

I mean, you basically committed Kindred Social Suicide.

It's the World of Darkness, man. Millenia Conspiracies and being a slave to things you don't even COMPREHEND is the very concept of the thing. Your not going around kicking ass. Your pathetically living in a world that SHOULDN'T EVEN BE ALLOWED TO EXIST. (IN CANON TOO.)

Talk to, and know your audience.

The (old) World of Darkness has some heavy meta-plot, and it can be seen as the railroads. The 20th aniversary re-prints have toned the Meta down so you can just play a game without the world-ending tomorrow. Storytellers should either set their players expectations, or ask them to work within a framework so they can have an idea how to work.
Asking things like:
"Hey guys, I want to run a Vampire the Masquerade game. Are you interested in mostly fighting, or political intrigues?"
or
"I want to run a Sabbat game centred around the defence of Mexico city, as the Cammies try to force them out, interested?"

These little things help manage your game, and player expectations. But if they "jump the rails". It shouldn't necessarily end a story, but give you a new one to tell.

The Glyphstone
2013-07-31, 09:47 PM
I have a sneaky suspicion Dragonclaw has had poor experiences with the bad sort of railroady OWoD ST....

One Step Two
2013-07-31, 09:53 PM
I have a sneaky suspicion Dragonclaw has had poor experiences with the bad sort of railroady OWoD ST....

I didn't want to assume anything, but I felt some snark and/or sarcasm in that post. I do hope some find my advice useful though.

Porthos
2013-07-31, 11:46 PM
I didn't want to assume anything, but I felt some snark and/or sarcasm in that post. I do hope some find my advice useful though.

And, of course, ALL White Wolf games had Rule Zero. Hell, they put it on the first couple of pages, IIRC.

So if your particular group doesn't like (aspects of) the metaplot? Ignore.

Simples.

Done. :smallsmile:

One Step Two
2013-08-01, 12:57 AM
And, of course, ALL White Wolf games had Rule Zero. Hell, they put it on the first couple of pages, IIRC.

So if your particular group doesn't like (aspects of) the metaplot? Ignore.

Simples.

Done. :smallsmile:

Oh, yeah, in my little mini-essay, I forgot to mention that I've forgotten the number of times we've tossed out the meta-plot to play Super-heroes With Fangs, or Claws.

Tanuki Tales
2013-08-01, 05:17 AM
That's because Chief Circle has set our expectations too high(or is it low?) for Bad GM's.

The OP has a Storyteller that has some faults, but they're small by comparison, and with a little work and effort, can be improved on.

Chief Circle.... that's not a GM, but a Sociopath with a set of dice.

This is all very true.

But it just re-inforces that I see the sins of this GM/Story teller as incredibly minor ones that don't even really warrant a thread devoted to fix them.

This is probably one of the absolute most tame example of "bad game running" that I've seen yet.

DragonclawExia
2013-08-01, 05:17 AM
I have a sneaky suspicion Dragonclaw has had poor experiences with the bad sort of railroady OWoD ST....

Ya don't say?

Ironically, I found it better to just follow the Railroad myself. I'm not really in the mood to get Bodhivasta Devas sicked on me while I'm sleeping or paradoxed out of existence for stepping on the wrong butterfly.


So my advice? It's how Storytellers work. Deal with it, and just play along for christs sake. Stop trying to go off the rails, cause honestly, I think the players in this scenario are just as a much a problem as the DM himself. Possibly more.


As for the other guy, yeah pretty much. If the Storyteller wanted, he can make it see how long the PC's can realistically last before the onslaught ends with their Final Death by not sicking The Top God on them automatically. Giving them a "fighting chance" so to speak. But that's assuming the PC's knows its a "Hopeless Battle" instead of another Character Leveled Challenge. Cause again, they sound like a version of those D&D Parties that F'D up the world and killed their OWN GODS like that Penny Arcade comic.

Seriously, assuming their Cammies, the Prince and the Camarilla is like the only reliable social network they have outside of the Anarchs. Their are POTENTIALLY others, but still, it's basically social suicide. I don't even KNOW where the Anarchs actually have a powerbase outside of LA to be honest.

And again, its oWoD lol. Your seriously not playing it for the LOOT are ya?

DragonclawExia
2013-08-01, 05:27 AM
Oh, yeah, in my little mini-essay, I forgot to mention that I've forgotten the number of times we've tossed out the meta-plot to play Super-heroes With Fangs, or Claws.

It is hilarious, that is true. Not having to play by that godawful but horrifically awesome fluff is like lifting a mountain off your back. My most "successful" oWoD Campaign did end up like that, except add a special sauce of Cthulhu for good measure and Evangelion Mindscrews for the shizzles.



Still, that fluff is good stuff. It's really hard to completely RULE ZERO it, but rather modify parts of it to make it more lenient.


Because honestly, who plays oWoD for the gameplay mechanic's? The Faction characterization, indepth metaplot, and the foreboding sense of dread is why hardcore players stick with it anyway.

Hell, I didn't even play it myself in P&P form since like. I don't know? 5 years? 10? I mostly just review the Fluff whenever I'm in a Dark Urban Fantasy mood.

I suppose I "tried' participating it online, but the last time I even bothered applying I got rejected for not fitting in the World Concept. I suppose an unknown Tremere turned Anarch in the East Coast would of been a bit too much since...well, ya know, it's like auditioning for a Drama Theater. I really can't describe it any other way.

Lorsa
2013-08-01, 06:18 AM
Although it was in nWoD, I have killed a prince. I don't see what the big fuss is about. These things happen in the somewhat violent political climate of vampires. I'm sure princes have been killed in the past with a new person taking over after him. It all depends and it's impossible to judge the situation based on just knowing about that one action. Did he say the players were neonates? Did he say the prince wasn't? Did he say how big city it was, how much loyalty the prince really had or even his standings outside the city? No he didn't. Killing the prince is an entirely plausible course of action in a roleplaying game. Princes getting killed is even part of the history I am sure and the Vampire novels.


It sounds to me as if you feel there is a discrepancy with how you view situations and consequences and how this person does. I feel this is actually one of the most fundamental part of any GMing, to be able to provide reasonable consequences for the players, that are fun and enjoyable and feels logical. I'm sure this is something he can learn but unfortunately for some people it's extremely difficult.

It's somewhat like when a friend of mine was DMing in D&D and we were two players at level 5 and still very very poor (I don't really think he should've been using D&D at all since he didn't understand the importance of gear) and after we got jumped by two fairly high level bandits in the woods and wanted to loot their stuff after we were victorious he had us roll a will save to avoid being panicked by all the tiny mosquitoes that were swarming to us. I think the will save was 10 or something, but being a barbarian I had 50% chance to succeed. So I didn't. First of all if it should have been any save isn't a fort save a better option in this case and secondly would a bunch of mosquitoes really bother someone when there's hundreds of shiny gold (in gear) lying around on the ground fairly close? Especially since according to the story we had recently came out of 2-3 years of slavery where we were regularly whipped and physically abused. I usually try to go with the flow and accept most things but the other player got really upset and the arguments that followed ended that campaign.

Starshade
2013-08-01, 05:26 PM
Hmm, don't the DM just need some improvisation training of sort? Send him to an improvisation theatre workshop, or something similar. :smallsmile:

nedz
2013-08-01, 05:47 PM
Hmm, don't the DM just need some improvisation training of sort? Send him to an improvisation theatre workshop, or something similar. :smallsmile:

Good idea — I recommend LARP :smallcool:

The Glyphstone
2013-08-01, 05:57 PM
Good idea — I recommend LARP :smallcool:

I thought we wanted to fix him, not destroy what little value he still had.:smallbiggrin: Says the regular LARPer

pilvento
2013-08-01, 09:50 PM
Hi everyone, im in the same gaming group and also a close friend of the OP. let me clarify a few things so we can continue the main tread and share your opinions more acordingly, here we go.

In or group we started playind DnD so of course we are just unable to completelly adapt to WoD, we like to be cool but we also try to make it the most "personal theatric horror" posible.

The longest story we played was with me as a storyteller, i designed the NY city using the NY book as a guide, i designed my npcs and wanted to keep the game inside the Vampire core book boundaries.
They started with some freedom, resolving their backstory problems, looking for boots to lick. finaly i introduced the main story, i set checkpoints for every sesion but i mostly improvise arround their actions, i try to adapt so my story stay on track and also make sure they have fun. Some made mistakes, and didnt end well.

Loki means that every action we make when "the DM that no one wants" is on charge its useless or ignored.

if we are playing WW and we find this 3 people doing bad stuff, we cant even seem to be able to distract one, cause they are fireproof or what ever, and then we see they were actually 100 people... was it SO hard to make us feel usefull distracting a SINGLE worker. we discused 2 hours about the mechanic and if it was posible...

if they were only 3, ok i get it, you need them for the scene.
but they were 100! a dam hundred!

And the prince assassination? that guy was a first timer, from other group, he was messing arround, never read a WoD book before... more reason to stop him!

TriForce
2013-08-02, 01:45 PM
basically, i "learned" to improvise by starting to DM a dnd 3.5 campaign, and simply not preparing ANYTHING until after the characters were already made. mind you, i have some really great players who are capable of making up a background for their characters on the spot, and that helped me create a template of a world while talking to them about it, but i was being put on the spot there, and just had to improvise a entire campaign. it worked, fortunatly, and helped me get the attitude of "ah, ill make something up" when absolutly needed

Loki Eremes
2013-08-04, 11:38 PM
Hi everyone, im in the same gaming group and also a close friend of the OP. let me clarify a few things so we can continue the main tread and share your opinions more acordingly, here we go.

In or group we started playind DnD so of course we are just unable to completelly adapt to WoD, we like to be cool but we also try to make it the most "personal theatric horror" posible.

The longest story we played was with me as a storyteller, i designed the NY city using the NY book as a guide, i designed my npcs and wanted to keep the game inside the Vampire core book boundaries.
They started with some freedom, resolving their backstory problems, looking for boots to lick. finaly i introduced the main story, i set checkpoints for every sesion but i mostly improvise arround their actions, i try to adapt so my story stay on track and also make sure they have fun. Some made mistakes, and didnt end well.

Loki means that every action we make when "the DM that no one wants" is on charge its useless or ignored.

if we are playing WW and we find this 3 people doing bad stuff, we cant even seem to be able to distract one, cause they are fireproof or what ever, and then we see they were actually 100 people... was it SO hard to make us feel usefull distracting a SINGLE worker. we discused 2 hours about the mechanic and if it was posible...

if they were only 3, ok i get it, you need them for the scene.
but they were 100! a dam hundred!

And the prince assassination? that guy was a first timer, from other group, he was messing arround, never read a WoD book before... more reason to stop him!


see this? you entered my post and killed it. GET OUT :roy:

First...yes.
This DM's NPCs are just cardboard cutouts OR frigging terminators.....and they can be anyone, anyplace without gender or position restriction

The prince: Cardboard image.
Random Worker: Terminator.
- other times they revert "roles" -


aaaaaand on the other hand: NO!
he wasnt a first timer, HE WAS el Toto.
He messed on purpose with the DM, aaand he won.

Bulhakov
2013-08-05, 04:14 PM
I've had some very similar experiences with a friend, funnily it was also in WoD and one of the problems was an unbreakable wooden door (even to a fully pumped up Bruja vampire).

Surprisingly this friend made an excellent player, as his lack of common sense fit perfectly well with his full devotion to roleplay and his favorite PC - an extremely anachronistic one-armed nosferatu than only fed on priests and devout catholics.

My advice would be to meet somewhere in the middle - go along with his railroading whenever you can, but constantly train him to be a better GM. Tell him what he does well (my friend built excellent atmosphere and created some interesting, though unrealistic NPCs) and tell him to work on his logical consistency, contingency plans and improv skills.

Starbuck_II
2013-08-05, 08:00 PM
Although it was in nWoD, I have killed a prince. I don't see what the big fuss is about. These things happen in the somewhat violent political climate of vampires. I'm sure princes have been killed in the past with a new person taking over after him. It all depends and it's impossible to judge the situation based on just knowing about that one action. Did he say the players were neonates? Did he say the prince wasn't? Did he say how big city it was, how much loyalty the prince really had or even his standings outside the city? No he didn't. Killing the prince is an entirely plausible course of action in a roleplaying game. Princes getting killed is even part of the history I am sure and the Vampire novels.



Exactly. in fact, in the Masquade Bloodline Video game you can choose to kill the Prince and the Asian Vampire leader, the Prince only, or Asian only.

Cain doesn't care.
He just likes driving his cab.

crazyhedgewizrd
2013-08-06, 12:03 AM
Exactly. in fact, in the Masquade Bloodline Video game you can choose to kill the Prince and the Asian Vampire leader, the Prince only, or Asian only.

Cain doesn't care.
He just likes driving his cab.

Yeah, but after that fact the game just ends. It doesn't show the political ramification after the killing, the social changes and the other problems that come up. It's just a little monologue and blank screen, the end.