rockdeworld
2013-07-31, 11:24 AM
When building a character for an arena, a player deals with a lot of constraints. A level 3 wizard can't cast Mirror Image and Grease in the same turn. A level 1 character can't afford a a Belt of Battle. Getting the most out of these constraints is the basis of optimization. For example, the Triple 9 Build (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864206/Tripple_Cheesebuger_with_Onions_%283*9th_Caster%29 ) gets 9th level arcane, divine spells, and powers with the limitation of 20 levels.
Now Mirriam-Webster defines economy (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/economy) as:
a : thrifty and efficient use of material resources : frugality in expenditures; also : an instance or a means of economizing : saving
b : efficient and concise use of nonmaterial resources (as effort, language, or motion)
In D&D, the different economies include: the gold economy, the level economy, the experience economy, the feat economy, the skill point economy, the attribute economy, the action economy, the character economy, and possibly a few others. Pretty much everything that goes into making or playing a character can be classified as an economy, because you have limited resources and have to optimize your use of them.
Note: this excludes drama and fun. While they are important, I'm only looking at playing a character from the perspective of solving a problem, e.g. winning a battle in an arena.
These economies aren't completely separate: spending xp on crafting magic items you otherwise couldn't afford is an example of spending from the experience economy (which affects your level economy if you lose a level) for a gain in the gold economy. Spending 3000gp and visiting an Otyugh Hole to gain Iron Will is an example of spending from the gold and action economies for a gain in the feat economy.
Usually a player is constricted to 1 character, so as an unwritten rule the character economy is inflexible. But the Leadership feat gives you an increase in character economy at a cost to feat economy. The fact that the leadership feat is usually banned hints that the character economy is easily broken. Having a level 1 character and getting another level 1 character doubles almost every other economy for the player. And for an example of how easily, the world damage record (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868594/World_Record_Damage:_Multiple_dirty_tricks_for_ins ane_synergy!) is held by no one build, but instead 3 builds working together.
Of course, 20 level 1 wizards can't hope to defeat 1 level 20 wizard, so there are limitations to the character economy. That aside, for this topic I'm continuing with the assumption that Conservation of Ninjitsu (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConservationOfNinjutsu) is not in effect and multiple characters aren't of reduced CR.
Getting to the main point, the action economy is usually considered the hardest and most valuable economy to optimize. But what happens when you ramp up the character economy? When both sides have 2 characters instead of 1, it's not so important that each character lead with Quickened Greater Blink + Disjunction + move to break Line of Effect. In fact, it's sub-optimal compared to Disjunction followed by Maw of Chaos.
What about 100 characters? Or a million?
Obviously D&D isn't made to handle mass combat on the scale of 200 level 20 wizards going to war on a battlefield, and I'm not going to try to figure out what happens if they did.
What I ask is the aid of the collective experience and insight of the board on the subject of multiple characters. Simply put, how does having a bunch more characters affect the action economy?
For a scenario, say two nations (A and B) were at war with 10 level 20 characters as the only high-level characters on each side ("high" meaning above level 10). There's a third side C that has a level 20 character as the only high-level character on its side who is on friendly relations with B and is considering joining the fight. Side A has a plan to eliminate the threat by sending in a Disjunction+Explosive Runes Bomb magical trap. C is dimensionally-locked against teleportation into or anywhere inside its borders (as an Ex ability), so the trap has to be dropped or carried to its target, both methods of which can obviously be scryed and stopped by side B, who initially knows nothing of this plan except that A has such a trap. And in this world Pun-Pun, The Omniscificer, The Terminator, The Wish & The Word, and the Clone Army (or any derivations) don't exist.
Who would succeed at their task: A or B? And how would it be different from if each side had only 1 20th level character with respect to the turn-by-turn actions?
And on another note, is anyone interested in participating in this scenario?
Now Mirriam-Webster defines economy (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/economy) as:
a : thrifty and efficient use of material resources : frugality in expenditures; also : an instance or a means of economizing : saving
b : efficient and concise use of nonmaterial resources (as effort, language, or motion)
In D&D, the different economies include: the gold economy, the level economy, the experience economy, the feat economy, the skill point economy, the attribute economy, the action economy, the character economy, and possibly a few others. Pretty much everything that goes into making or playing a character can be classified as an economy, because you have limited resources and have to optimize your use of them.
Note: this excludes drama and fun. While they are important, I'm only looking at playing a character from the perspective of solving a problem, e.g. winning a battle in an arena.
These economies aren't completely separate: spending xp on crafting magic items you otherwise couldn't afford is an example of spending from the experience economy (which affects your level economy if you lose a level) for a gain in the gold economy. Spending 3000gp and visiting an Otyugh Hole to gain Iron Will is an example of spending from the gold and action economies for a gain in the feat economy.
Usually a player is constricted to 1 character, so as an unwritten rule the character economy is inflexible. But the Leadership feat gives you an increase in character economy at a cost to feat economy. The fact that the leadership feat is usually banned hints that the character economy is easily broken. Having a level 1 character and getting another level 1 character doubles almost every other economy for the player. And for an example of how easily, the world damage record (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868594/World_Record_Damage:_Multiple_dirty_tricks_for_ins ane_synergy!) is held by no one build, but instead 3 builds working together.
Of course, 20 level 1 wizards can't hope to defeat 1 level 20 wizard, so there are limitations to the character economy. That aside, for this topic I'm continuing with the assumption that Conservation of Ninjitsu (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConservationOfNinjutsu) is not in effect and multiple characters aren't of reduced CR.
Getting to the main point, the action economy is usually considered the hardest and most valuable economy to optimize. But what happens when you ramp up the character economy? When both sides have 2 characters instead of 1, it's not so important that each character lead with Quickened Greater Blink + Disjunction + move to break Line of Effect. In fact, it's sub-optimal compared to Disjunction followed by Maw of Chaos.
What about 100 characters? Or a million?
Obviously D&D isn't made to handle mass combat on the scale of 200 level 20 wizards going to war on a battlefield, and I'm not going to try to figure out what happens if they did.
What I ask is the aid of the collective experience and insight of the board on the subject of multiple characters. Simply put, how does having a bunch more characters affect the action economy?
For a scenario, say two nations (A and B) were at war with 10 level 20 characters as the only high-level characters on each side ("high" meaning above level 10). There's a third side C that has a level 20 character as the only high-level character on its side who is on friendly relations with B and is considering joining the fight. Side A has a plan to eliminate the threat by sending in a Disjunction+Explosive Runes Bomb magical trap. C is dimensionally-locked against teleportation into or anywhere inside its borders (as an Ex ability), so the trap has to be dropped or carried to its target, both methods of which can obviously be scryed and stopped by side B, who initially knows nothing of this plan except that A has such a trap. And in this world Pun-Pun, The Omniscificer, The Terminator, The Wish & The Word, and the Clone Army (or any derivations) don't exist.
Who would succeed at their task: A or B? And how would it be different from if each side had only 1 20th level character with respect to the turn-by-turn actions?
And on another note, is anyone interested in participating in this scenario?