Usual powers.

[Tegu8788]

Every now and again I run across something in the compendium that just makes me stop and think. I'm perfectly happy for this thread to be co-oped later.


The first power that has be confused, is the Paladin L3 Night's Mantle. It's a Paladin power, that requires you to wield a bow. While I see no reason a Paladin couldn't use a bow, without holy symbol bows shenanigans, I can't figure out why a paladin would ever want to use a bow, much less have a reason to have a power for it. Can anyone shed any light on this?

[Alejandro]

If the PCs are battling something dangerous that flies around (like, a dragon) the paladin might find it very advantageous to mark the dragon, and then fire arrows at it so as to sustain their mark. If the PCs then spread out, the dragon has to choose whether to bomb and strafe the paladin, or break the mark attacking someone else.

[Tegu8788]

Except that it is an encounter power, and the mark it provide only lasts until the end of the next turn. And if the Paladin had already marked it, this power would interrupt that mark, and so it would no longer apply. I doubt many Paladins have the Dex to make many bow attacks, and I don't know of any Str-bows. But it's a Cha power anyway, so even that wouldn't help.

[Alejandro]

Maybe I should have clarified. I'm answering your question of why a paladin would ever want to use a bow. They could Divine Challenge said dragon, then when it starts flying around, they can sustain the mark by having attacked it with a bow.

[Epinephrine]

I'm away from my books atm, but I recall followers of Sehanine having access to certain special powers (using bows as implements, adding to the range of their powers when using a bow, etc.), is there a Sehanine Paragon Path or Combat Style that allows substituting certain Paladin attacks with bow attacks?

[allonym]

Paladins don't even have proficiency in bows! It's a shame, because it would be nice to have, say, more Bow Cleric support.

[Alejandro]

Paladins don't even have proficiency in bows! It's a shame, because it would be nice to have, say, more Bow Cleric support.

That's true, I neglected that. But they do have proficiency in crossbows.

[allonym]

That's true, I neglected that. But they do have proficiency in crossbows.

Indeed they do, but I believe the power in question specifies the use of a bow! :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, if it was switched to be a cleric power with wis in place of cha, and something better than just divine sanction, it would actually be pretty cool. Bow clerics need love.

[vasharanpaladin]

Consider it an opportunity for homebrew. :smallamused:

[Alejandro]

Indeed they do, but I believe the power in question specifies the use of a bow! :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, if it was switched to be a cleric power with wis in place of cha, and something better than just divine sanction, it would actually be pretty cool. Bow clerics need love.

I know. Again, I'm not addressing that specific power, it's pretty useless. I'm only addressing why a paladin would want to carry a (cross)bow.

[allonym]

A heavy thrown weapon would be strictly better for straladins, and probably for chaladins too, because taking off/putting on a heavy shield can be such a pain.

Though I guess if a chaladin is using the Champion of Corellon path they could find use for a crossbow, since their Dex will be higher than usual. Though why they don't just use a light thrown weapon...

[Tegu8788]

So there is a niche position for a Paladin to use a bow. But nothing about the power itself, the point of the thread.

[allonym]

The power isn't even very good at all. It's a ranged Ardent Strike with +1[w], unusable by straladins. Considering that chaladins get some very solid encounter powers at pretty much every level (I guess level 17 is a low point if your wisdom isn't very good), there really is no use for the anomaly.

It's not even like there are classes who would powerswap for it. Only cha-based class which even uses a bow I can think of is the bard.

And why is it even called 'Night's Mantle'? You shoot a dude and mark them; hardly fitting the cloaked in shadows feeling.


Spitballing some homebrew here...
Night's Mantle
With a whispered prayer, your arrow is soaked in divine shadows as you draw it from your quiver. The shadows coat your foe like spilled ink, and your friends can claim shreds of it to further confound the enemies of the moon.
Cleric Attack 3
Ranged Weapon Divine
Special: You must use this power with a bow.
Wis vs AC. If you have partial concealment from your target, you gain combat advantage for this attack.

Hit: 2[w]+wis mod, and the target is blinded until the end of your next turn. If an ally hits the target while it is blinded by this attack, that ally gains partial concealment until the end of their next turn.

[dariathalon]

Consider the source. The power is from a Dragon article about worshippers of Sehanine. There are several feats in that article that can make using a bow a viable (though not great) option for many divine classes. Sehanine has always been associated with bow use, this article was throwing a bone to the players that wanted that flavor.

[VeliciaL]

Consider the source. The power is from a Dragon article about worshippers of Sehanine. There are several feats in that article that can make using a bow a viable (though not great) option for many divine classes. Sehanine has always been associated with bow use, this article was throwing a bone to the players that wanted that flavor.

Indeed, the same article gives us the Moonbow Dedicate feat which gives shortbow proficiency, solving the proficiency problem. Serene Archery allows you to use Wisdom instead of Dexterity for ranged basic attacks, which solves that problem as well, albeit only for builds with a strong Wis secondary.

It's notable that Str-focused builds can get the level 7 Crescent Moon power, which is similar.

[Tegu8788]

Crescent Moon uses a melee weapon, essentially throwing it, akin to some Swordmage powers.

If there were enough powers to make a Bow Paladin, I think that would be several kinds of awesome. But only the one power, that's odd. And if you're a Chaladin, then you are unlikely to have the Wis needed to make good RBA with it. Even if a Hybrid Bow Bard was made, it still would need at least 1 daily and at-will from the Paladin side.

[allonym]

It would have been far better to devote more resources to allowing Sehanine bow clerics to be a viable build (which is doable, especially with later powers, but still hardly ideal) than to make a tiny and completely useless attempt at paladin support.

[VeliciaL]

It would have been far better to devote more resources to allowing Sehanine bow clerics to be a viable build (which is doable, especially with later powers, but still hardly ideal) than to make a tiny and completely useless attempt at paladin support.

Can't say I disagree there. I took a look at the article and thought, "One power? Really?"

[Epinephrine]

Can't say I disagree there. I took a look at the article and thought, "One power? Really?"

All it would take is a set of style feats like the martial classes got.
Sehanine Student. Sehanine Crusader. Sehanine Moonfollower.
Allows you to use a list of paladin, or cleric powers with a bow instead of a melee weapon.

But unfortunately, that power alone is just silly.

[VeliciaL]

All it would take is a set of style feats like the martial classes got.
Sehanine Student. Sehanine Crusader. Sehanine Moonfollower.
Allows you to use a list of paladin, or cleric powers with a bow instead of a melee weapon.

But unfortunately, that power alone is just silly.

Maybe make a feat chain themed around each god. Would be a nice alternative to the laughably meh Channel Divinity feats, that's for certain.

[Wymmerdann]

I guess it would be useful to a ranger/paladin hybrid.

Madness you say?

Hybridity avoids the proficiency issue: You're getting Ranger's weapons. Sure you lose the plate (without a feat) but your dex keeps you up there. I'm imagining a strong dex/cha build, probably with one of the millions of relevant races (Drow/Doppleganger/Goblin etc).

Powers wise, you take virtuous strike and twin strike as your at-wills (giving you a decent mba), and pick this feat up as your mandatory encounter power. You keep a ranged focus, and don't need to invest your item selection in keeping an up-to-date holy symbol.

Each turn you maintain your divine challenge on a guy on the other side of the battlefield, who gets locked down by a controller or avenger or whatever, and once an encounter you can mark another guy with this.

[BlckDv]

One of the feats in that article does make Bow an Implement for any Divine PC as well, and another power makes Implement powers used via bow longer range, so a Chaladin Wis Secondary can work, if not be Op.

Just for fun I made a Half-Elf paladin using these feats with Eyebite as his Dilettante power. I'd not call him anything like Op, but he was amusing, playing keep away so that enemies had to either find the hidden Paladin or soak his God's anger.

[allonym]

I guess it would be useful to a ranger/paladin hybrid.

Madness you say?

Hybridity avoids the proficiency issue: You're getting Ranger's weapons. Sure you lose the plate (without a feat) but your dex keeps you up there. I'm imagining a strong dex/cha build, probably with one of the millions of relevant races (Drow/Doppleganger/Goblin etc).

Powers wise, you take virtuous strike and twin strike as your at-wills (giving you a decent mba), and pick this feat up as your mandatory encounter power. You keep a ranged focus, and don't need to invest your item selection in keeping an up-to-date holy symbol.

Each turn you maintain your divine challenge on a guy on the other side of the battlefield, who gets locked down by a controller or avenger or whatever, and once an encounter you can mark another guy with this.

Leaving aside the question of why you don't play a str/wis hybrid and actually have synergy...


So the entirety of your defenderiness comes from divine challenge and you being far away? That really isn't much defence. How do you even intend to use Virtuous Strike (and the majority of other worthwhile paladin powers) if you're holding a bow? Why aren't you just a real paladin with dilettante twin-strike? And even if these and the various other problems weren't there...Night's Mantle is still a really bad power. Why not take Valorous Smite and have an actually worthwhile means of applying Divine Sanction?

So yeah, madness, I say...

[Wymmerdann]

I was gonna leave this, because I'm not hugely invested in the build, but I'm toying with an idea for a Goblin Paladin of Sehanine now, so I'll have a crack:

Synergy takes more than just stats. Even so, an archer ranger and chaladin share wisdom as a secondary, so, as with most builds, you'll be focussing two stats through to full progression and starting a third a little higher for the NAD and rider boosts.

More to the point allonym, this is fricking D&D, and hybrids are the place to make unorthodox ideas playable. I'll leave strictly synergised builds to the Optimisation boards and actually have fun with roleplaying whatever character takes my fancy, thanks. "Paladin with Dillette" isn't a real alternative for the same reason that it prostitutes a traditionally rp-centred choice (race) to the requirements of function. I'll leave that argument where it is though, as it's no doubt been hashed out all over the net.

This Rangerdin path doesn't even really need the hybrid talent feat (and gains little by it), whereas a str/wis would either get the feat and waste the heavy shield, or struggle to make ends meet without it. Added the fact you'd probably need mighty challenge to do any damage at all with divine challenge on a hybrid straladin, and suddenly the str/wis build doesn't seem so kosher. Indeed, given mighty challenge doesn't affect divine sanction, it's hard to see what's really going to be left over of the paladin other than his plate armor proficiency. You won't be getting the flufftastic channel divinity due to the armor requirement and you've already surrendered lay on hands due to hybridity. En excuse for a high Charisma, I guess, if you wanted a turn at party face.

As with many hybrids, this bow ranger/paladin would be, at best, a secondary defender. The ranged marking would function more as a damage boost/defensive boost for allies, as you're expecting enemies to be in no position to obey they mark. It's chicken-defending, and I'm currently enjoying it with my Swordmage/wizard.

Virtuous strike isn't the mainstay power. It normally goes without saying, but in this case that's twin strike. Virtuous strike exists to be a solid radiant, save boosting mba, for those rare situations where you need to go toe to toe, and tie down enemies with both a mark and viable opportunity attacks. Clearly this wouldn't be with a bow, but probably a level-appropriate-minus-1 two handed weapon. It also provides good synergy with classic frostcheese through the sehanine frost/radiant focus feat.

Night's Mantle is neither necessary, nor perhaps even optimal for this build, but it's certainly workable. Given that item selection would be roughly in keeping with your standard archer ranger (focus on bows over melee, bracers of archery, etc) it's pretty certain that that it would be vastly superior to Valorous Smite, which I readily admit is generally more versatile and effective. Indeed in this build, Valorous Smite would tend to attract way too much heat for the character to handle. Bow ranger's probably shouldn't be routinely marking all enemies within a burst 3. It's just bad manners.


It was certainly terribly conceived, but there's workable space for Night's Mantle in unorthodox builds.

[VeliciaL]

I'm... impressed. It's unorthodox, and likely not even close to optimized... but it doesn't not work, which isn't what you can say about a lot of hybrid builds. As long as you keep your stat boosts to a Paladin attack stat (I favor Charisma) and Dexterity, it should at least be playable.

And darn it, now I want to build this character...

[Gavran]

I made this character after BlckDv's post. It sounds hilarious and I really hope I get to play it in a Paragon* 1-shot someday. It's all so beautiful, the PP even gives out stealth training to help me be the Hidden Defender.

*So I can get Eyebite at-will.

[VeliciaL]

This Rangerdin path doesn't even really need the hybrid talent feat (and gains little by it)...

I could see a Rangerdin wanting to grab Hunter Fighting Style, to make weapon swapping easier. There's also all the optimization Prime Shot can get.

EDIT: Although on second thought this build really wants a meat shield between it and its target (to make obeying the Divine Challenge difficult), so getting a Prime Shot bonus might not be terribly feasable.

[Wymmerdann]

EDIT: Although on second thought this build really wants a meat shield between it and its target (to make obeying the Divine Challenge difficult), so getting a Prime Shot bonus might not be terribly feasable.

In my experience it works well with another defender, such as a swordmage who can lock down your marked target with booming blade, or a decent controller.

The most effective combo I can immediately thing of would be the Pursuit Avenger. Often monsters lack a reason to avoid the avenger, but the weaker hybrid mark and the Avenger's class feature damage bonus would create a real lose/lose situation.

So it doesn't necessarily have to be a meat shield, just something that gives it a reason not to run over to the archer and stab him in the face (which, I'll admit, is traditionally the meat shield's role).