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View Full Version : The Spiritualist: A 3.5 Prestige Class merging Binder and Swordsage. PEACH!



Metahuman1
2013-07-31, 05:57 PM
Alright, this is my first attempt at designing a homebrew base class. I'm doing this, to start with at least, in response to a need/set of desires for a 3.5 game I'm applying too, and with my games Dungeon Masters cooperation. Weather I keep this going after that or not remains to be scene.

Frame of reference: the target power range of this class is from high tier 3 till low to middle tier 2. Also, the game in question is intended to give off a lot of Anime styled vibes. Calling out names of attacks, special attacks, mono logging, taking time to explain how and why all your moves and powers work, physics and practicality defying fight scenes, that kinda stuff. Yes, I know, not all Anime does this and there are plenty of things that are not Anime that do these thing, but it conjures the right mental images to say that, thus helping to get the point across.

Moving on.

I've presently got 2 versions of the class, and I need both peached. The first one is a first draft I pitched at the DM. The second one is modified version with suggestions from the DM. I need both looked at and compared to determine if one fits the desired bill better then the other, or if any other changes are needed, or if it was fine on the first pass. Input appreciated, thanks!



The Spiritualist

Fluff: May choose to walk the path of the nine swords. Many Value Martial Prowess and strength. Others prefer more esoteric arts, developing mental powers, making pacts with shadows and forgotten beings, developing inane arcane talent or calling on help form higher powers.

The Spiritualist seeks an inner enlightenment that he may achieve his goals, and to find this, develops his prowess in the Sublime Way as well as through knowledge of Pact Magic.

Alignment: Spiritualists may be of any alignment, neither vestiges nor the arts of the nine swords preclude persons of any given moral disposition form there study or there power.

Proficiency's: Spiritualists are proficient with all simple weapons, All Martial Melee Weapons, Light Armor, and shields (Except Tower Shields. ).

Variant: A Spiritualist may give up there melee weapons proficiency's and instead gain a Monks Unarmed Damage progression and the Improved Unarmed strike feat and Proficiency with there unarmed strikes and natural weapons. They also gain the monks ability to treat there bodies as manufactured for spells such a greater magic weapon.





Hit Die: D8

[spoiler]{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Class Features

1st|Spiritualist|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+2|Chosen Schools, Soul Binding (1 Vestige), Quick to Act +1, Pact Augmentation (1 ability.)

2nd|Spiritualist|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+3|AC Boost.

3rd|Spiritualist|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Suppress Sign.

4th|Spiritualist|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+4|-

5th|Spiritualist|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+4|Soul Binding (2 Vestiges.), Pact Augmentation (2 Ability's.), Quick to Act +2.

6th|Spiritualist|
+4|
+5|
+5|
+5|-

7th|Spiritualist|
+5|
+5|
+5|
+5|Sense Magic

8th|Spiritualist|
+6/+1|
+6|
+6|
+6|-

9th|Spiritualist|
+6/+1|
+6|
+6|
+6|Pact Augmentation: Double or Nothing, No Take Backs, And All or Nothing, There is No In Between.

10th|Spiritualist|
+7/+2|
+7|
+7|
+7|Soul Binding (3 Vestiges.), Pact Augmentation (3 Ability's), Quick to Act +3

11th|Spiritualist|
+8/+3|
+7|
+7|
+7|-

12th|Spiritualist|
+9/+4|
+8|
+8|
+8|-

13th|Spiritualist|
+10/+5|
+8|
+8|
+8|-

14th|Spiritualist|
+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+9|-

15th|Spiritualist|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+9|
+9|Soul Binding (4 Vestiges.), Pact Augmentation (4 Ability's), Quick to Act +4

16th|Spiritualist|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+10|-

17th|Spiritualist|
+13/+8/+3|
+10|
+10|
+10|-

18th|Spiritualist|
+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+11|-

19th|Spiritualist|
+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+11|-

20th|Spiritualist|
+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+12|Soul Binding (5 Vestiges.), Pact Augmentation (5 Ability's), Quick to Act +5, [/table]

Skills: 6+Int Mod X4 at level 1.

Class Skills for the Spiritualist are: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Scrip, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: All skills taken Individually, Listen, Martial Lore, Move Silently, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and Tumble.

Initiator schools: A Spiritualist can choose maneuvers from Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon, Dessert Wind and Tiger Claw. A spiritualist uses the Swordsages recovery Mechanic, and there progression for Maneuvers Known, Readied, and for Stances Known.

See Chosen Schools class feature for remaining information.

Chosen Schools:

When the first level of the Spiritualist class is taken, the Spiritualist chooses, in addition to the listed schools, two schools from the following list to be able to learn maneuvers and stances form.

Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, White Raven.

Once Chosen, this selection can only be changed through retraining as described in the players handbook 2 or through special effects such as Psionic Reformation.

Quick to Act: As the Swordsage Class feature of the same name.

Soul Binding: A Spiritualist Binds Vestiges as a Binder of there level would, with the same limitations of Vestige level to character level, and by adding there Spiritualist level + Cha mod for there bonus to the binding check.

Pact Augmentation: As the Binder Class Feature of the Same Name, only dependent on Spiritualist levels.

AC Boost: At second Level, A Spiritualist Adds there Charisma Modifier to there Armor Class, Touch Armor Class, and Flatfooted Armor class when wearing light or no armor and fighting with a shield no heavier then a light shield. This acts in all other respects as the Swordsage class feature of the same name.

Suppress Sign: As the Binder Class Feature of the same name.

Sense Magic: As the swordsage Class Feature of the same name, only dependent on Spiritualist levels.

Pact Augmentation: Double or Nothing, No Take Backs, And All or Nothing, There is No In Between.:

When a Spiritualist uses all his Pact Augmentations to gain the same ability form the Pact Augmentation List, he may then choose another Item off that list, and receives both benefits as though he put all five augmentations into them.

For example, A 9th level Spiritualist who chooses +5 Hit Points Augmentation 2 times for a total of +10 Hit Points, could choose to also have DR 2/-. When you choose new pact augmentations for the day, you may choose two new maxed sets with this ability, or you may spread your choices out among others and forgo this class features benefit.

The above is version 1. After some discussion with the DM, the following changes were proposed, and we agreed that it would be good to post both versions here to be Peached just to see if either of them accomplished stated target goals and which one did it better, or if to do so further alterations would be prudent. As previously stated.

The blow version is the version with the changes, which I will summarize.





Hit Die: D8

[spoiler]{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Class Features

1st|Spiritualist|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+0|Chosen Schools, Soul Binding (1 Vestige), Quick to Act +1, Pact Augmentation (1 ability.)

2nd|Spiritualist|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+0|AC Boost.

3rd|Spiritualist|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+1|Suppress Sign.

4th|Spiritualist|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+1|-

5th|Spiritualist|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+1|Soul Binding (2 Vestiges.), Pact Augmentation (2 Ability's.), Quick to Act +2.

6th|Spiritualist|
+4|
+5|
+5|
+2|-

7th|Spiritualist|
+5|
+5|
+5|
+2|Sense Magic

8th|Spiritualist|
+6/+1|
+6|
+6|
+2|Improved AC Boost.

9th|Spiritualist|
+6/+1|
+6|
+6|
+3|Pact Augmentation: Double or Nothing, No Take Backs, And All or Nothing, There is No In Between.

10th|Spiritualist|
+7/+2|
+7|
+7|
+3|Soul Binding (3 Vestiges.), Pact Augmentation (3 Ability's), Quick to Act +3

11th|Spiritualist|
+8/+3|
+7|
+7|
+3|Perfected AC Boost

12th|Spiritualist|
+9/+4|
+8|
+8|
+4|-

13th|Spiritualist|
+10/+5|
+8|
+8|
+4|-

14th|Spiritualist|
+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+4|-

15th|Spiritualist|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+9|
+5|Soul Binding (4 Vestiges.), Pact Augmentation (4 Ability's), Quick to Act +4

16th|Spiritualist|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+5|-

17th|Spiritualist|
+13/+8/+3|
+10|
+10|
+5|-

18th|Spiritualist|
+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+6|-

19th|Spiritualist|
+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+6|-

20th|Spiritualist|
+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+6|Soul Binding (5 Vestiges.), Pact Augmentation (5 Ability's), Quick to Act +5, [/table]


Skills: 4+Int Mod X4 at level 1. Class Skills for the Spiritualist are: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Scrip, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: All skills taken Individually, Listen, Martial Lore, Move Silently, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and Tumble.


Initiator schools: A Spiritualist can choose maneuvers from Desert Wind, Tiger Claw, Setting Sun and Shadow Hand. A spiritualist uses the Swordsages recovery Mechanic, and there progression for Maneuvers Known, Readied, and for Stances Known.

See Chosen Schools class feature for remaining information.

Chosen Schools:

When the first level of the Spiritualist class is taken, the Spiritualist chooses, in addition to the listed schools, one school from the following list to be able to learn maneuvers and stances form.

Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, Diamond Mind or White Raven.

Once Chosen, this selection can only be changed through retraining as described in the players handbook 2 or through special effects such as Psionic Reformation.

Quick to Act: As the Swordsage Class feature of the same name.

Soul Binding: A Spiritualist Binds Vestiges as a Binder of one level below them would, with the limitations of Vestige level to character level -1, and by adding there Spiritualist level + Wis mod for there bonus to the binding check.

For example, A Binder with a 16 Cha could make a Pact with the vestige Paimon at level 5 by adding his Binder level to his Cha mod for the check. 5+3=8 for a check of 1d20+8.

A Spiritualist with a 16 Wis could make a Pact with the same Vestige Paimon at level 6, and not before with out investment of feats found in the Pact Magic section of Tome of Magic, by adding his Spiritualist level of his Wis mod for the Check. 6+3=9 for a check of 1d20+9.

Pact Augmentation: As the Binder Class Feature of the Same Name, only dependent on Spiritualist levels.

AC Boost: At second Level, A Spiritualist Adds there Wisdom Modifier to there Armor Class, Touch Armor Class, and Flatfooted Armor class when wearing no armor or fighting with a shield. This acts in all other respects as the Swordsage class feature of the same name.

At level 8, this class feature will funtion if the Spiritualist is wearing light armor but not while fighting with a shield. If the Spiritualist wishes to forgo armor, they may still receive the benefit of this class feature.

At 11th level, this class feature will funtion if the Spiritualist fights with a shield no heavier then a light shield. The Spiritualist retains the benefit of this class feature when using any combination or lack of unarmored fighting, wearing light armor, and/or fighting with a shield no heavier then a light shield.

Suppress Sign: As the Binder Class Feature of the same name.

Sense Magic: As the swordsage Class Feature of the same name, only dependent on Spiritualist levels.

Pact Augmentation: Double or Nothing, No Take Backs, And All or Nothing, There is No In Between.:

When a Spiritualist uses all his Pact Augmentations to gain the same ability form the Pact Augmentation List, he may then choose another Item off that list, and receives both benefits as though he put all five augmentations into them.

For example, A 9th level Spiritualist who chooses +5 Hit Points Augmentation 2 times for a total of +10 Hit Points, could choose to also have DR 2/-. When you choose new pact augmentations for the day, you may choose two new maxed sets with this ability, or you may spread your choices out among others and forgo this class features benefit.

Summarized Changes:

Skills were reduced to 4+int mod a level form 6+int mod a level. This was to hybridize them between the Binder and the Swordsage.

Will Save was Nerfed to a bad progression. The reasoning was that it would still be strong enough since the class strongly encourages a high wisdom mod form maneuvers, making the Pact Magic Mechanic Wis dependent instead of Cha Dependent, making the AC boost Wis dependent instead of Cha Dependent.

A variant of this was proposed to make it have a bad Fort save and Good Reflex and Will Saves instead.

Binding Mechanic and AC Boost moved to be fueled by Wis instead of Cha. The DM suggested this would be fine since it kept it form making the class need Wis and Cha, and it would allow a Nerf to the will save to be less debilitating.

AC boost was also broken up to Scale over the progression, as the DM felt it might be a bit much in it's full form at level 2.

The Known Schools list was adjusted, adding shadow hand and setting sun as automatically coming with the class, and removing Stone Dragon and Diamond Mind. Chosen schools were reduced from 2 to 1, and Diamond Mind was added to the list to choose form while Setting Sun and Shadow Hand were removed.

Pact Making progression on the highest level Vestige A member of the class can Bind was delayed by one level, putting it one level behind a binder on the matter, in the same fashion that a sorcerer's access to spells of a given level is delayed to one level after the wizard.

One last point to consider, the DM has also said to me that he feels he was, quote: "probably a little harsh on it, but that's my job to a certain extent.". Just though it might be worth mentioning so no one feels they must hold back on suggested adjustments.

Thanks for any in put!

Metahuman1
2013-07-31, 05:58 PM
Alright, after some discussion with the DM and some help form my friend Hawkflight, the disquisition was made to instead make this a prestige class. Thus, here is what were thinking.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances Known

1st|+0|
2|
0|
2|Soul Binding +1, Vestigial Awareness, Bonus Feat|
1|
0|
0

2nd|+1|
3|
0|
3|[Rising Soul Stance], Soul Binding +2|
0|
1|
0

3rd|+2|
3|
1|
3|Pact Augmentation, Soul Binding +3, Bonus Feat|
1|
0|
0

4th|+3|
4|
1|
4|Soul Binding +4|
0|
0|
1

5th|+4|
4|
1|
4|Soul Binding +5, Bonus Feat|
1|
0|
0

6th|+4|
5|
2|
5|[Unnamed Stance 2], Soul Binding +6|
0|
1|
0

7th|+5|
5|
2|
5|Pact Augmentation, Soul Binding +7, Bonus Feat|
1|
0|
0

8th|+6|
6|
2|
6|Soul Binding +8|
0|
0|
1

9th|+7|
6|
3|
6|Soul Binding +9, Bonus Feat|
1|
0|
0

10th|+8|
7|
3|
7|Soul Binding +10, Swift Binding (Working Title), Bonus Feat|
0|
1|
0

[/table]

Soul Binding Bonus: At each [class] level, your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class. Your [class] levels and binder levels stack for the purpose of determining your bonus on binding checks, the effectiveness of your vestige-granted abilities, your ability to bind higher-level vestiges, and the number of vestiges you can bind. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a binder would have gained.

Vestigial Awareness (Su): Beginning at 1st level, you can ask your bound vestige to focus on alerting you to danger rather than letting it revel in the sensations that it perceives through your pact. Whenever you make a good pact with a vestige, you gain a +2 bonus on initiative checks for the duration of the pact.

Bonus Feats: At levels 3, 5, 7, and 9, you may choose one of the following feats as a bonus feat. Expel Vestige, Skilled Pact Making, Improved Binding, Ignore Special Requirement. At levels 1 and 10, you may choose one feat off the fighter bonus feat list as a bonus feat.

[Unnamed Stance]: At 2nd level, you learn how to work together with your bound vestige to boost your abilities. You take a swift action to lose the benefits of any stance you're in to gain the benefits granted by this stance. While you're in this stance, as long as you're bound to a vestige, your effective Binder level increases by 1 for the purpose of determining the effectiveness of your vestige-granted abilities, and you receive a dodge bonus to AC equal to your Int modifier. In addition, your natural weapons as well as any weapons you wield are treated as aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. The alignment of your weapons matches your own to as great a degree as possible. Thus, if you're lawful good, your weapons strike as both lawful-aligned and good-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction, but if you're neutral good, they strike only as good-aligned. If you are neutral, your weapon strikes as one alignment component of your choice: chaotic, evil, good, or lawful. You must make this choice upon entering this stance, and cannot thereafter change it until you enter this stance again.

[Unnamed 2]: At 6th level, you learn the second stance of the [class name]. You take a swift action to lose the benefits of any stance you're in to gain the benefits granted by this stance. While in this stance, as long as you're bound to a vestige, you may draw upon its power to augment your fighting abilities. You gain a +2 bonus to Strength, a +2 bonus to Constitution, a +10-foot bonus to all forms of movement, and a +4 bonus on Will saves.

Swift Binding: Once per day, when you use your Adaptive Style feat to change your maneuvers, you may instead change your bound vestige. You still need to make a binding check.

Metahuman1
2013-07-31, 06:04 PM
Another reserved for possible later use.

Metahuman1
2013-07-31, 06:05 PM
And a third reserved for possible later use, just to be safe.

Hawkflight
2013-08-01, 08:52 PM
Okay, I gotta be honest. This ... this isn't a class. It's two classes smashed together. There is no interaction between the binding and the maneuvers, which I feel is absolutely necessary in an initiating class. I'd say, redo the binding from scratch and call it something different, like Ancestral Spirit(s).

This is also an issue because ... it's just OP. You have everything from Binder, only at lower levels for each ability (save for Soul Guardian, which isn't enough of an omission to justify this). You also have literally everything from the Swordsage, and if you have more stuff piled on top of that from the binder side of things, then that's just not acceptable.

In short, it's overpowered and uninteresting. This is not a class, it's a gestalt masquerading as a class. No DM in their right mind would allow it in a game. Go back, reduce the maneuver progression, rework the binding abilities, remove some stuff (I recommend the AC bonus and chosen schools to start), and then maybe we'll have a more reasonable class.

Road_Runner
2013-08-02, 12:09 AM
I don't know what kind of power your level your party is dealing with. If you have a highly optimized party, this might be ok.

However, I do agree with hawkflight. This is a customized gestalt, rather than a class. If that's what you were aiming for, fine, but I don't see why you wouldn't just play a gestalt character...?

Metahuman1
2013-08-02, 05:36 PM
Well, the tone for the game in question is Shonen Anime. Ala Bleach, Naruto, Fairy Tale, One Piece, Raroni Kenshin, Street Fighter, DBZ, History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi, and while not technically Anime RWBY. It's suppose to be over the top and flashy.

Amnoriath
2013-08-02, 05:55 PM
Well, the tone for the game in question is Shonen Anime. Ala Bleach, Naruto, Fairy Tale, One Piece, Raroni Kenshin, Street Fighter, DBZ, History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi, and while not technically Anime RWBY. It's suppose to be over the top and flashy.

Over the top and flashy can be replicated by merely decreasing hardness and hit points on surroundings, multiplying speeds, and exaggerated descriptions. You just simply don't have an actual base class. Like everyone else said here you have a gestalt character. If you want one than feel free to use it but the main reason why people aren't really taking you seriously is because it doesn't seem like you put any thought into it. While it isn't a full gestalt it is the fact that this doesn't have a unique mechanic and/or sets of abilities in and of itself. It really makes it hard to make it seem like a different class.

Hawkflight
2013-08-02, 05:59 PM
For the record, this was originally supposed to be a PrC, and we're working on making it a PrC again. Thoughts and advice, given in this light, would be greatly appreciated.

Metahuman1
2013-08-02, 06:11 PM
Over the top and flashy can be replicated by merely decreasing hardness and hit points on surroundings, multiplying speeds, and exaggerated descriptions. You just simply don't have an actual base class. Like everyone else said here you have a gestalt character. If you want one than feel free to use it but the main reason why people aren't really taking you seriously is because it doesn't seem like you put any thought into it. While it isn't a full gestalt it is the fact that this doesn't have a unique mechanic and/or sets of abilities in and of itself. It really makes it hard to make it seem like a different class.

Well, first, it is a work in progress. You've seen the first two drafts of it so far, a third draft is in the works, and it's getting a lot of overhaul.

Secondly, I was asked about the sort of power level of the rest of the party, I did my best to give an idea of what the character taking levels in this is suppose to be able to do/emulate/keep pace with. If it helps, I've got a JPM likely to be in the party, who's using the psionic variant, and is a warfordged. I've also got a Sorcerer. The target power arena is medium tier 3 at the bottom, to mid tier 2, with high tier 2 probably being passable if not quite on target. I say this to try and get helpful input to on the modifications, especially once it's posted on the forth coming prestige class format.

Eldan
2013-08-02, 06:36 PM
For a Dual-progression class to be interesting, you need one thing: interaction. It's not enough to just have two abilities and progress them, that ends up fairly boring. What you want is abilities that combine the mechanics of two classes you have in a new and interesting way.

Metahuman1
2013-08-02, 06:53 PM
Any suggestions for how to go about that?

We'd looked at the idea of martial vestiges, but found 3 problems.

1: We'd have to either create all new vestiges from scratch or assign one or more schools to every vestige.

2: It would drastically up the level of homebrew I'm using, and I'm trying to not go too overboard on it.

3: It risks the problem of making the character even more powerful. Use feats and Items to bind more effectively and quickly, and now I can change my characters entire build at the drop of a hat to suit the current or known/foreseen problems buy changing my vestiges, and by exstention not just maneuvers readied but maneuvers known.

Metahuman1
2013-08-07, 12:55 AM
Unfortunately needed Bump.

Hawkflight
2013-08-07, 01:09 AM
Alright, after some discussion with the DM and some help form my friend Hawkflight, the disquisition was made to instead make this a prestige class. Thus, here is what were thinking.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances Known

1st|+0|
2|
0|
2|Soul Binding +1, Vestigial Awareness, Bonus Feat|
1|
0|
0

2nd|+1|
3|
0|
3|[Rising Soul Stance], Soul Binding +2|
0|
1|
0

3rd|+2|
3|
1|
3|Pact Augmentation, Soul Binding +3, Bonus Feat|
1|
0|
0

4th|+3|
4|
1|
4|Soul Binding +4|
0|
0|
1

5th|+4|
4|
1|
4|Soul Binding +5, Bonus Feat|
1|
0|
0

6th|+4|
5|
2|
5|[Unnamed Stance 2], Soul Binding +6|
0|
1|
0

7th|+5|
5|
2|
5|Pact Augmentation, Soul Binding +7, Bonus Feat|
1|
0|
0

8th|+6|
6|
2|
6|Soul Binding +8|
0|
0|
1

9th|+7|
6|
3|
6|Soul Binding +9, Bonus Feat|
1|
0|
0

10th|+8|
7|
3|
7|Soul Binding +10, Swift Binding (Working Title), Bonus Feat|
0|
1|
0

[/table]

Soul Binding Bonus: At each [class] level, your soul binding ability improves as if you had also gained a level in the binder class. Your [class] levels and binder levels stack for the purpose of determining your bonus on binding checks, the effectiveness of your vestige-granted abilities, your ability to bind higher-level vestiges, and the number of vestiges you can bind. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a binder would have gained.

Vestigial Awareness (Su): Beginning at 1st level, you can ask your bound vestige to focus on alerting you to danger rather than letting it revel in the sensations that it perceives through your pact. Whenever you make a good pact with a vestige, you gain a +2 bonus on initiative checks for the duration of the pact.

Bonus Feats: At levels 3, 5, 7, and 9, you may choose one of the following feats as a bonus feat. Expel Vestige, Skilled Pact Making, Improved Binding, Ignore Special Requirement. At levels 1 and 10, you may choose one feat off the fighter bonus feat list as a bonus feat.

[Unnamed Stance]: At 2nd level, you learn how to work together with your bound vestige to boost your abilities. You take a swift action to lose the benefits of any stance you're in to gain the benefits granted by this stance. While you're in this stance, as long as you're bound to a vestige, your effective Binder level increases by 1 for the purpose of determining the effectiveness of your vestige-granted abilities, and you receive a dodge bonus to AC equal to your Int modifier. In addition, your natural weapons as well as any weapons you wield are treated as aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. The alignment of your weapons matches your own to as great a degree as possible. Thus, if you're lawful good, your weapons strike as both lawful-aligned and good-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction, but if you're neutral good, they strike only as good-aligned. If you are neutral, your weapon strikes as one alignment component of your choice: chaotic, evil, good, or lawful. You must make this choice upon entering this stance, and cannot thereafter change it until you enter this stance again.

[Unnamed 2]: At 6th level, you learn the second stance of the [class name]. You take a swift action to lose the benefits of any stance you're in to gain the benefits granted by this stance. While in this stance, as long as you're bound to a vestige, you may draw upon its power to augment your fighting abilities. You gain a +2 bonus to Strength, a +2 bonus to Constitution, a +10-foot bonus to all forms of movement, and a +4 bonus on Will saves.

Swift Binding: Once per day, when you use your Adaptive Style feat to change your maneuvers, you may instead change your bound vestige. You still need to make a binding check.

Reposting this here, because people won't see it in the second post. I suggest you move it up to the top post and just erase the original, since this supercedes it.

Definitely looking a lot better than what we originally discussed. I still think it has a few too many bonus feats (even the fighter doesn't have that many feats per level), but other than that, looking good.

I should, however, note the BAB is off. It should be 0/1/2/3/3/4/5/6/6/7.

Xerlith
2013-08-07, 02:24 AM
Uh... The formatting definitely needs help. What are the prerequisites? Also, show some interaction between the maneuvers and vestiges. Even numerical bonuses would help show the intertwining of the two.
The stances are nice, but I feel they are insufficient.
There are martial adept/X prestige classes posted on this forum.
Look through them, maybe it'll give you some ideas.

WhamBamSam
2013-08-07, 01:26 PM
This is looking better.

For prerequisites, maybe something like this?

Skills: Concentration 8 ranks
Feats: Adaptive Style
Maneuvers: One Martial Strike.
Stances: One Martial Stance of 2nd level or higher.
Able to bind second level vestiges.

Mind, Body, and Soul might be an okay name for the second stance, and Adaptive Soul or Adaptive Spirit might work as a name for the capstone.

To help it bring the two components together thematically maybe drop the Pact Augmentations and instead add something like this.

Augmenting Strike: Beginning at 4th level, when you successfully attack an enemy with a martial strike you gain an additional pact augmentation ability until the end of the encounter if you have at least one vestige bound. You may only increase the total number of augmentations per vestige in this way by 1, or by 2 at 8th level.

Then add a clause to the capstone saying that when you bind vestiges in this way you gain pact augmentations on each vestige up to the number you get normally, plus the number of additional augmentations you've added with Augmenting Strike, but that you lose the benefits of augmentations above your normal number at the encounter's end.

This means that you have fewer augmentations for much of combat, but you can tailor some of your augmentations to the enemy at hand on the fly.

Also, what disciplines does it get stances/maneuvers from, and what are the skills/skill points per level?

Metahuman1
2013-08-08, 05:44 PM
Um, I think stances work as 3rd level or higher. Since stances start coming online at first level, but then you don't really see them again till 5th level with the 3rd level maneuvers. Maybe just require at least 1 2nd level maneuver?

WhamBamSam
2013-08-08, 11:15 PM
Um, I think stances work as 3rd level or higher. Since stances start coming online at first level, but then you don't really see them again till 5th level with the 3rd level maneuvers. Maybe just require at least 1 2nd level maneuver?Oh, yeah, that's right. It was intended to make it so it'd take at least two levels in an initiator class to enter. If it just requires a second level maneuver, you can enter as a Binder 4/Swordsage 1 could enter, though I guess that's not so bad.

I'm tempted to say reduce it to 9/10 Binding as well, but maybe that's not necessary.

Metahuman1
2013-08-08, 11:55 PM
Probably not. The bonus feats are nice but as a rule of thumb class features>Bonus feats. The stances and Pact Augmentations are kinda useful but given that I had maneuvers and pact augmentation just form Binder X/Martial initiator 1, and I have other things to do with my passive buffs and swift actions then use these stances, there hardly earth shattering. The Capstone is potent, but it's also 1/day, and while I kept a full binding progression, the martial initiator progression was nerfed HARD.

I think it will still be workable, but I guess I won't know till we actually get a ways into the game and thus it's been play tested.

Amnoriath
2013-08-09, 12:42 AM
Probably not. The bonus feats are nice but as a rule of thumb class features>Bonus feats. The stances and Pact Augmentations are kinda useful but given that I had maneuvers and pact augmentation just form Binder X/Martial initiator 1, and I have other things to do with my passive buffs and swift actions then use these stances, there hardly earth shattering. The Capstone is potent, but it's also 1/day, and while I kept a full binding progression, the martial initiator progression was nerfed HARD.

I think it will still be workable, but I guess I won't know till we actually get a ways into the game and thus it's been play tested.
You need a unique theme for it. What makes this different than a regular multiclass character? A simple mechanical theurge usually is quite boring to play.

Metahuman1
2013-08-09, 12:53 AM
I had other ability's in there in the first PrC draft of the class. But I was told I needed to cut way way way back to keep it from being too powerful.

As for boring, well, it's had no play testing yet, so will see, but for now I'm just hoping that lot's of maneuvers and lot's of different kinds of maneuvers along with lot's of vestiges makes for lot's of cool combo's.

Hawkflight
2013-08-09, 03:00 PM
This is looking better.

For prerequisites, maybe something like this?

Skills: Concentration 8 ranks
Feats: Adaptive Style
Maneuvers: One Martial Strike.
Stances: One Martial Stance of 2nd level or higher.
Able to bind second level vestiges.

Mind, Body, and Soul might be an okay name for the second stance, and Adaptive Soul or Adaptive Spirit might work as a name for the capstone.

To help it bring the two components together thematically maybe drop the Pact Augmentations and instead add something like this.

Augmenting Strike: Beginning at 4th level, when you successfully attack an enemy with a martial strike you gain an additional pact augmentation ability until the end of the encounter if you have at least one vestige bound. You may only increase the total number of augmentations per vestige in this way by 1, or by 2 at 8th level.

Then add a clause to the capstone saying that when you bind vestiges in this way you gain pact augmentations on each vestige up to the number you get normally, plus the number of additional augmentations you've added with Augmenting Strike, but that you lose the benefits of augmentations above your normal number at the encounter's end.

This means that you have fewer augmentations for much of combat, but you can tailor some of your augmentations to the enemy at hand on the fly.

Also, what disciplines does it get stances/maneuvers from, and what are the skills/skill points per level?

I think I agree with Sammy on this. Add that ability, remove / cut way back on the feats, and we should have a pretty decent PrC.