How much is ToB affected if you shift the key stats over one?

[Nettlekid]

I am a big fan of ToB, either going all the way through with a full initiator or dipping for key maneuvers, but something that's always kind of bugged me is that the key stats for each class, Cha for Crusader, Wis for Swordsage, and Int for Warblade, seem misplaced. (Of course, those stats aren't really all that important anyway, since they all want high physical stats primarily, but anyway.) The Crusader is all about flashes of divine inspiration and insight, which feels like Wis to me. The Swordsage is all clever and cunning, which feels like Int. And the Warblade is all flashy and heroic, going with their gut, which feels like Cha. So what would happen if you took all mention of those stats in the three entries and flipped them around? Make the Crusader's Indomitable Will and Smite based on Wis, the Swordsage's AC Bonus and Discipline Focus based on Int, and the Warblade's various Battle things based on Cha?

I know that in a full initiator build the difference would be pretty slight if you were to slide all the key stats one over (Crusaders would have a higher Will save, Swordsages would have more skill points, etc), but since ToB is connected greatly with dips here and there, how might some builds be entirely different? Ruby Knight Vindicators would be less MAD (although I guess they still want high Cha.) Swordsage dips from Factotum would be really valuable. Warblade....I can't think of anything that dips Warblade that has a big focus on Cha.

Would this change things, or would it basically just stay as is, since those stats aren't used greatly anyway?

[Lightlawbliss]

Some builds would change.

[Werephilosopher]

Switching the abilities around makes some sense to me. It could detract from the idea of Swordsages as semi-mystical warriors, and the idea of Warblades as intelligent tacticians, but the way you described the classes works better in my mind. I also get the feeling that keying Crusader abilities off Charisma was a holdover from the Paladin, but it makes even less sense with the Crusader IMO.

[GreenETC]

With Swordsage being Int to AC, Jade Phoenix Mage gish builds get cool, since casting stat to AC is pretty good for a gish. Crusader being Wis will make Ruby Knight Vindicators even more awesome. The only real question is why Crusaders get Wis to Will twice. Warblade being Cha will make Bardblade sweet as hell, since now you actually have a use for Cha, though your skill points will suffer.

Eternal Blade is now a worthless PrC, because BaB +10 @ 10 is impossible for a Swordsage. Shadow Sun Ninja is worthless now, since no Swordsage will be able to use it well and Crusaders don't get the right maneuvers. JPM and RKV get cool buffs but don't change much. Otherwise, everything seems to be in order.

[Werephilosopher]

Eternal Blade is now a worthless PrC, because BaB +10 @ 10 is impossible for a Swordsage. Shadow Sun Ninja is worthless now, since no Swordsage will be able to use it well and Crusaders don't get the right maneuvers.

Hopefully a DM who allows changing the main ability of the base classes would allow changing them for the PRCs as well. Or perhaps a ruling that the main ability of an Initiator PRC is the same as the base class a player uses to enter it? That doesn't seem too out of line, what do you think?

[Nettlekid]

Yeah, I would assume that in switching key ability scores of the base classes, you'd also switch the corresponding scores of PrCs. I guess expand this to ANY mention of Int, Wis, and Cha in the text of class abilities and maneuver DCs gets changed to the next score (Int=>Cha, Wis=>Int, Cha=>Wis). As for the Crusader...um...His insight is so strong that its twice as powerful as most people's. You can get double Wis to Will with a Serenity Paladin after all, so it's not unprecedented.

From what I'm hearing, it sounds like it would be a pretty good call in general. Most builds that already are used would have better synergy. JPM sounds like it gets the best boost, since Swordsage is usually what you use to go into it anyway (I think, right?), so Int to casting and AC is a plus. I know that for RKV Wis synergy is good, but it doesn't change all that much because you wanted a good Cha anyway for more Turn Undead to burn. Though a pure Wis Serenity Paladin=>RKV might be interesting. Not as good as a Cleric, but still. I wonder how much a class like SSN would change becoming Int-based, and Eternal Blade becoming Cha-based. SSN might be an interesting path for a Factotum/Swordsage.

What builds would actively suffer for the change? Like, what Crusader builds incorporate dips with Charisma in mind, etc? People are fond of comboing Monk with Swordsage (even though the double Wis to AC thing technically doesn't work due to armor, but DMs I've played with have allowed it), so I guess that would suffer, although Kung-Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk fixes it. What else stops working?

[RFLS]

People are fond of comboing Monk with Swordsage (even though the double Wis to AC thing technically doesn't work due to armor, but DMs I've played with have allowed it)

Even without the armor, they're still wrong. The sources for the bonuses have the same name; stacking rules prohibit you from benefiting twice.